luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 So what is the point of public school, if it is ineffective? Eh, they are just glorified day care centers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Here is the thing; I believe immigration improves the average American life. Can we survive if we closed the border? Sure? We will just become poorer, much more so. Sarge talked about visiting the third world in another thread. What he and many don’t realize is that some of you are guys are proposing third world policies. Hmmmm overcrowding, loss of jobs, decay of neighborhoods.... yeah.. sounds great... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I think I would do a lot of self reflection and see why I was failing my kid as a parent.Good or bad education shouldn't be left in the schools hands solely. This doesn't answer Pez's question at all. It just looks down the nose at it. What if your only failing as a parent is you don't make enough money to put your kids in a costly private school, and must rely on the public education system that our taxes pay for? How is it a parent's fault the school in his district is overcrowded? And yes, once a kid gets on the school bus for the day his education is in the hands of the school. The teacher should be competent, and the class sizes should be conducive to learning. When the child gets back off the bus i nthe afternoon it is the responsibility of the parent to reinforce and add to what was taught during the day in the school. No one said the school is solely responsible, but if it is overcrowded it makes the rest of everyone's job difficult at best. Then came this Eh, they are just glorified day care centers Perhaps they are because people like you don't really seem to care. Aren't you as responsible for them as much as everyone else? ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumrunner6900 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Immigration by definition is the legal crossing of borders. Why are you mixing up the debate by saying we are against immigration? Only open border activists act in such a manner. We are talking about illegal border hoppers! I've read a lot of stuff on illegal immigration on this board and this is a tactic employed by many....try to change the subject or otherwise cloud the issue... As I've posted before..... il·le·gal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lgl) adj. Prohibited by law. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Immigration by definition is the legal crossing of borders. Why are you mixing up the debate by saying we are against immigration? Then you would be all for abolishing immigration quotas. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manleyistheman Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Furthermore, how dare you call people who want to enforce our laws racists and bigots. The law is same regardless of skin color. I dare because you can convince yourself all you want that you would be as quick to want them kicked out if the 11 million where blonde and blue-eyed Scandanavians but I certainly know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I dare because you can convince yourself all you want that you would be as quick to want them kicked out if the 11 million where blonde and blue-eyed Scandanavians but I certainly know better. Man, that is pretty close minded. In the least, do you even know what color the poster you're addressing is? You certainly assume quite a bit. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Hmmmm overcrowding, loss of jobs, decay of neighborhoods.... yeah.. sounds great... overcrowing/over-population,- Deserves another thread loss of jobs- The economy is not a zero-sum game. Oh, the unemployment rate in this country is pretty damn good. As Destino often points out, we are pretty much at full employment. decay of neighborhoods - This is dangerous rhetoric as far as I am concerned. It's code. You need to be clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Then you would be all for abolishing immigration quotas. Right? I'm for making sure the quotas meet the demand. Maybe every 4 years Congress can study the quotas and make sure they square with demand. I'm also for making sure "guest workers" are actually guests who leave instead of guests who over-stay their invitation. I wouldn't mind a tamper-proof ID card for guest workers only. Track where they live, how much they paid in taxes, and where they are working. Anytime they stop work for 1 month... deport them. Once their 4 years are up... go back to Mexico and reapply in 2 years. Also, you can't bring your family. Maybe this will help build up the guest workers country becuase they will go back much richer than they came. I'm also for having a balanced immigration policy. We should allow people of all countries to apply and come. By default it seems our immigration policy leads to an unproportional amount of guests from south of the border. It would be nice if we got some true diversity... I say this because we need more Asians and Africans in this country to be globally relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 If this was true, Los Angeles would have a booming economy, and the police chief and others wouldn't be clamoring to raise taxes to pay for such basic services as schools and police. Why did a lot of hospitals in Southern California close in the past 15 years? Just another part of lies, damn lies and statistics. Los Angeles does have a booming economy. Prop 13 killed the finances of the State of California, not lack of growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manleyistheman Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Man, that is pretty close minded.In the least, do you even know what color the poster you're addressing is? You certainly assume quite a bit. ~Bang No, i don't even know the color of the person I'm addressing. Yes, it's assuming quite a bit and it was unfair to Fergasun, and for that I'm sorry. At the same time, you can't convince me that skin color is not a factor in the discussion and views in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I'm also for making sure "guest workers" are actually guests who leave instead of guests who over-stay their invitation. The last thing in the world I want is another France type situation (the riots). A guest work program that leads to citizenship is the way to go. I wouldn't mind a tamper-proof ID card for guest workers only. Track where they live, how much they paid in taxes, and where they are working. Anytime they stop work for 1 month... deport them. Once their 4 years are up... go back to Mexico and reapply in 2 years. Also, you can't bring your family. Going to cost a great deal of money and going to create one massive big government program. Never mind the whole civil liberty angle to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Furthermore, how dare you call people who want to enforce our laws racists and bigots. The law is same regardless of skin color. I believer he referred to Tom Tancredo with that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 No, i don't even know the color of the person I'm addressing. Yes, it's assuming quite a bit and it was unfair to Fergasun, and for that I'm sorry.At the same time, you can't convince me that skin color is not a factor in the discussion and views in general. While xenophobia and racism often overlap, there is a distinction between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Then came this Perhaps they are because people like you don't really seem to care. Aren't you as responsible for them as much as everyone else? ~Bang Trust me, I care. I am going to be blunt with you Bang. I don't believe in public education. They fail kids who need them the most. I am private sector kind of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 At the same time, you can't convince me that skin color is not a factor in the discussion and views in general. Isn't this racism in and of itself? You're convinced of a racial bias where you have no proof at all one exists. You're going on your own assumption based on your own prejudices. While I agree race is definitely a problem in this country, if people continue to assign it where they havent got any proof it exists, how will the problem ever go away? People deserve the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise, my friend. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 No, i don't even know the color of the person I'm addressing. Yes, it's assuming quite a bit and it was unfair to Fergasun, and for that I'm sorry.At the same time, you can't convince me that skin color is not a factor in the discussion and views in general. If there were 12 million illegal Scandonavians, I wouldn't mind sending them back. It's an Internet message board and I'm sure you are as passionate about your position as I am mine... and both sides can get quite heated. I think there is an underlying factor in this debate because most of the illegal aliens are from south of the border. Everyone knows this is because Mexico is closer than Africa... but if we lived next to Rwanda, Korea or Poland... there would be people screaming "those damn Rwandans, those damn Koreans, those damn Polish". Is it racism or just frustration? I don't know, but I would probably feel better about Mexico if their citizens weren't flooding into America and demanding rights. It can be seen as an act of war. There aren't a bunch of Canadians streaming into our country. Initially, yesterday's protests was called "A Day Without Latinos". In Mexico, they called their protest "A Day Without Gringos". I don't think you can call it racism, but there is some agitation towards Mexicans. Would you call Iraqi's racist if a majority there were against Americans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 This doesn't answer Pez's question at all. It just looks down the nose at it.What if your only failing as a parent is you don't make enough money to put your kids in a costly private school, and must rely on the public education system that our taxes pay for? How is it a parent's fault the school in his district is overcrowded? And yes, once a kid gets on the school bus for the day his education is in the hands of the school. The teacher should be competent, and the class sizes should be conducive to learning. When the child gets back off the bus i nthe afternoon it is the responsibility of the parent to reinforce and add to what was taught during the day in the school. No one said the school is solely responsible, but if it is overcrowded it makes the rest of everyone's job difficult at best. Then came this Perhaps they are because people like you don't really seem to care. Aren't you as responsible for them as much as everyone else? ~Bang With all do respect, Bang. It is (usually) the fault of the parent that their kids are uneducated. Many uneducated (or undereducated) parents produce children who become successes (despite the overcrowding at schools and lack of school $'s). Why? Because those parents gave a damn and made sure their kid was focused on becoming successful. Despite what lucki believes (or says), schools aren't day care centers. And they shouldn't be expected to be THE ONLY TEACHER that children see every day (which is what I am trying to get across, albeit in a clunky way). Of course, all of us know that. We just get caught up on the semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Trust me, I care. I am going to be blunt with you Bang. I don't believe in public education. They fail kids who need them the most. I am private sector kind of guy. That's fine, I can understand that, and I certainly don't mind bluntness. However, I kind of see the education of our kids as important to all of us, and I'm sure you realize that not everyone can afford the private sector. Those kids deserve a chance, too. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manleyistheman Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 While xenophobia and racism often overlap, there is a distinction between the two. Are you suggesting that we are dealing with xenophobia and not racism? Although a natural feeling, the thought of xenophobia doesn't comfort me much I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 That's fine, I can understand that, and I certainly don't mind bluntness. However, I kind of see the education of our kids as important to all of us, and I'm sure you realize that not everyone can afford the private sector. Those kids deserve a chance, too. I don't want to sidetrack this thread. Of course education is important. I believe most poor people could afford education if it was liberalized, but that’s for another thread for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan133 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I don't want to sidetrack this thread. Of course education is important. I believe most poor people could afford education if it was liberalized, but that’s for another thread for another day. free public education is one of THE best govt institutions in this country, i would fight to the death to keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 With all do respect, Bang. It is (usually) the fault of the parent that their kids are uneducated. Many uneducated (or undereducated) parents produce children who become successes (despite the overcrowding at schools and lack of school $'s). Why? Because those parents gave a damn and made sure their kid was focused on becoming successful. Despite what lucki believes (or says), schools aren't day care centers. And they shouldn't be expected to be THE ONLY TEACHER that children see every day (which is what I am trying to get across, albeit in a clunky way). Of course, all of us know that. We just get caught up on the semantics. I totally agree, parents must be involved in their kids education. But they should also have a reasonable expectation that their schools are at least able to educate rather than babysit. Me, I'm self employed, work from home. For me it's easy. I'm here when he leaves in the morning and here when he gets home. I'm able to arrange my schedule to be there for him, and it makes it easy to do other things, like chaperone field trips and such. Unfortunately, I'd be willing to bet that most folks on this board aren't in my position, and can't be as active as I am in their kids education, no matter how much they would like to be. They should also be able to expect an adequate education for their child. Anyway, i agree wityh Luckydevil,, we're all off topic now. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Are you suggesting that we are dealing with xenophobia and not racism? Although a natural feeling, the thought of xenophobia doesn't comfort me much I'm afraid. We are dealing with both. However, xenophobia is what is really fueling the opposition. It's the same thing with free trade. I am adamantly opposed to xenophobia. I hope one day we get past this absurd tribalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 free public education is one of THE best govt institutions in this country, i would fight to the death to keep it. Nothing "free" about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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