Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'

[Coach Williams]

A man lives in a little hut just outside the village...

No electricity, so all he does is chop wood and make wooden toys for kids every year right after summer ends..

After a long life of giving to others he gets???

Nothing, because he never heard of a prophet named Jesus?

Seems like a rather sad reason for not getting to hang out in heaven...

I'd like to add that this situation is SOoo over used.......it's just something a bored agnostic thought of one day and said, "yeah that sounds pretty good." .........there's no way that in 38 years of your life someone hasn't told you what Zoed just said.......stop mentioning this because you might end up believing it......:doh:

[Coach Williams]

As usual King your take on things is alway's, if nothing else, entertaining.

OH COME ON.......

Let's pretend like I'm not a "bible thumper" :doh:for 30 seconds.....

_____________________________________

there's no God....

we evolved from monkeys even though monkeys are still around....

Energy can not create itself BUT the big bang, cosmic egg/ therefore cosmic chicken theory is true

Everyone in the Bible is lying and none of the things all those people believed in are true, hence they died over a lie.....<-----unlogical

All the historical evidence for Jesus' existence was written by Mel

________________

ORrrrrrrrrrr

________________

God put us in control of our lifes with enough information to make a rational chioce, maybe not EVERYTHING you want to know but enough for this lifetime.........Either you'll make one or you won't.....that simple.....

I for one choose the latter......If I'm wrong it's a big woop-de-do........If you're wrong you're ****'ed

[techboy]

Thiebear and Yusuf06: I'm not entirely sure that your questions were answered to your satisfaction, in terms of what the Bible teaches, so I'll give it a shot.

First, Thiebear, when you ask about whether a rapist/murderer who sincerely accepts Jesus 15 seconds before he is executed (I'm embellishing to make it an even more severe contrast) can go to heaven while the charity worker who spent every minute of his waking life helping others will not, there is a simple Biblical answer, one that has already been given you.

Yes.

The problem is that you are focusing on good works from a human point of view (or even a Biblical point of view), and ignoring how God looks at things.

Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes the humanitarian. At some point in his life, he lied, or hated his brother, or cheated on his taxes, or whatever. Probably a lot more than once. And, as rightly pointed out earlier, Jesus taught that if you break one commandment you break all of them. So, in God's eyes, they're both sinners.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. This is a spiritual death, or eternity apart from God, or Hell, however you want to call it. The basic concept is that God is perfect, and will not abide the presence of sin. Sin causes permanent seperation from God.

So, from God's perspective, both the rapist/murderer and the humanitarian have sin, which He will not abide. Without the intervention of Jesus, both go to Hell. With the intervention of Jesus, both go to Heaven. Each has the chance, so this is not unfair. If the humanitarian rejects this chance, and the murderer/rapist accepts it, then yes, the m/r (abbreviation!) goes to Heaven and the humanitarian goes to Hell. That's what the Bible teaches.

What the Bible also teaches, though, is that there are different levels of reward in Heaven, and different levels of punishment in Hell. (see Luke 12:47–48; Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15). So, although the m/r gets into Heaven, he likely receives almost no reward. Likewise, although the humanitarian gets sent to Hell, he very likely is suffering far less than Hitler (to use yet another over the top example).

One last thing you need to consider is that you need to look at this from God's perspective. He condescends to take human flesh, suffers horribly, and dies for the sins of the world. The humanitarian, hearing this, refuses to accept that free gift. He throws it back in God's face, saying he can do it on his own. Does he really deserve to spend eternity with the God he rejected? Would he even want to?

Anyway, that's what the Bible says. Obviously, it's up to you to believe it or not.

Part two, raised mostly by Yusuf06, is what happens to the person who never hears about Jesus. Let me get the cliched answer out of the way first: This is actually kind of irrelevant, since anyone who is discussing the problem isn't affected by it. You've heard the Gospel, and so must make a choice. Now, then, what does the Bible say about those who have not heard the gospel?

Nothing.

Nothing direct, anyway.

There is nothing Scriptural that I am aware of, for example, to support the idea that those who never hear will not be condemned.

There are several possible answers to this question, though.

The Calvinist, who believes in predestination (that God chooses those to be saved, and we have no free will in the matter) will likely say that those who do not hear were not chosen.

In Romans 1 18-20 Paul says this:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

In this, and other verses, the Bible says that all know God through His creation. So, another answer is that the person who has not heard, has, as Paul says, "no excuse". He should still seek God through the revelation of nature.

One theory is that as many in the Old Testament were saved for their faith in the coming Messiah, these could be saved by their faith in God as revealed in their hearts and nature.

There are other theories, too, such as the idea that God will allow each unwitnessed-to person a chance to hear supernaturally, or perhaps something else entirely.

As I said, though, the Bible makes nor direct statement about it. Perhaps this is because it's not a practical situation, since as I said, anyone debating it is going to have heard. If God had put everything in the Bible, it'd be too big! (It's late, and I'm coming up blank on a ridiculous size analogy). I do think, though, that it would be irresponsible to answer more specifically, or with any definitive nature, on what happens to those who do not hear, because there's no specific Scripture that specifically deals with it.

There's just no way a Christian can honestly give a definitive Scriptural answer to the question.

What I do know with certainty, though, is that God is just, and whatever He does, none will have cause to complain.

Again, though, this is what the Bible says about things. If you don't believe the Bible, then I suggest you sleep in on Sunday mornings.

[Jumbo]

If you don't believe the Bible, then I suggest you sleep in on Sunday mornings.

Or, like a couple billion+ other human souls, you can get up early for humdreds of other wonderful reasons.

[Xameil]

OH COME ON.......

Let's pretend like I'm not a "bible thumper" :doh:for 30 seconds.....

_____________________________________

there's no God....

we evolved from monkeys even though monkeys are still around....

Energy can not create itself BUT the big bang, cosmic egg/ therefore cosmic chicken theory is true

Everyone in the Bible is lying and none of the things all those people believed in are true, hence they died over a lie.....<-----unlogical

All the historical evidence for Jesus' existence was written by Mel

________________

ORrrrrrrrrrr

________________

God put us in control of our lifes with enough information to make a rational chioce, maybe not EVERYTHING you want to know but enough for this lifetime.........Either you'll make one or you won't.....that simple.....

I for one choose the latter......If I'm wrong it's a big woop-de-do........If you're wrong you're ****'ed

:laugh: funny thing is I remember my first debate with you. I thought you had to be the worst thumper I have come across...then some of the others chimed in...how wrong I was...you are so moderate :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You better toughen your stance or you might be going to hell with the rest of us heathens :laugh: :laugh:

( :doh: I'm sorry I have to get up in 3 hours)

[Ancalagon the Black]

Thank you, techboy, for that well-considered and informative response.

OH COME ON.......

we evolved from monkeys even though monkeys are still around....

Everyone in the Bible is lying and none of the things all those people believed in are true, hence they died over a lie.....

All the historical evidence for Jesus' existence was written by Mel

Kingbrice, this has in general been a respectful discussion. I don't want to turn it into a "God v. evolution" debate, which is silly anyway, but I do request that you afford others the same respect you are being afforded. Not a single sentence I've quoted above represents what others are saying, so please do not put words in the mouths of others.

I for one choose the latter......If I'm wrong it's a big woop-de-do........If you're wrong you're ****'ed

This is basically a restatement of Pascal's wager, which has been demonstrated to be logically broken.

[The Sisko]

Techboy, I appreciate your presenting a variety of thoughts on the question I raised. I understand that at best there's just conjecture on this subject. Many thanks for a well thought out and balanced reply.

[Coach Williams]

ATB......That's true....I don't wanna hijack this thread with evoloution stuff either.......as for the 3 things you quoted, those were generalities from countless other evolution threads, obviously not quotes.....

Ironically the last comment you made is news to me..........I never knew someone actually took credit for this and named it something[Pascal's wager]......I just considered it common sense:laugh:....

Ok back on topic from this line down.....

______________________________________________________________

So how bout' Judas

that's better :applause:

[Ancalagon the Black]

Ironically the last comment you made is news to me..........I never knew someone actually took credit for this and named it something[Pascal's wager]......I just considered it common sense:laugh:....

I'd recommend Googling "Pascal's wager" or looking it up in Wikipedia--it's pretty interesting.

[Coach Williams]

I'd recommend Googling "Pascal's wager" or looking it up in Wikipedia--it's pretty interesting.

I actually did that before I read the rest of the post....indeed interesting, he put some serious thought into it too:laugh:....

The part I noticed quickly is that he pointed out this is not an arguement for the existence, but for the fact that you should consider the topic and gain a stance.....

This is true, no point in believing if it's out of fear.....

Now back on topic:D.......

[Jumbo]

I'd recommend Googling "Pascal's wager" or looking it up in Wikipedia--it's pretty interesting.

It's especially useful as bridge into other philosophical work on the concept of godhood and divinity if you follow where it leads (not wikipedia though). That will take some time and committment, though.

Here: I just looked for one, maybe google would give a better source but I'd seen this one in the past and its ok. It can get a person off to a start anyway.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pasc-wag.htm#SH1a

[Coach Williams]

It's especially useful as bridge into other philosophical work on the concept of godhood and divinity if you follow where it leads (not wikipedia though). That will take some time and committment, though.

Here: I just looked for one, maybe google would give a better source but I'd seen this one in the past and its ok. It can get a person off to a start anyway.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pasc-wag.htm#SH1a

I'm gonna be bizi 4 a while:laugh:

[Jumbo]

I'm gonna be bizi 4 a while:laugh:

Keep you out of trouble

[Stigmata]

I think religion is so much more on a personal level that the beliefs people have get so ingrained in there physiques, thought movement becomes an internal negative due to pride of long held beliefs.

With politics people go toe to toe for hours and people have heated debates, jockeying back and forth to make there case..

Not so much so with religion, God is so vast to have a broad range of knowledge takes years of study, prayer, Grace, seeking, ect Hence some people are armed with a larger wealth of knowledge and when people have a limited knowledge base they tend to reel at the conversation and push others and themselves away from self analyzation over there held beliefs, (pride)..

For me it should be viewed as a case in study, talking about issues, ideas ect of God, and helps the debater look at other angels ect, who knows maybe a better ray of light will be shown on my thoughts and i can take that with me and sharpen the little amount of truth my small mind holds. ya never know ..

[Thiebear]

I'd like to add that this situation is SOoo over used.......it's just something a bored agnostic thought of one day and said, "yeah that sounds pretty good." .........there's no way that in 38 years of your life someone hasn't told you what Zoed just said.......stop mentioning this because you might end up believing it......:doh:

Yeah, God forbid I actually had no idea you could go you whole life and be offered salvation after you died??? But preaching down to someone always works... If you read the thread you would have seen that i've only been to church about 20 times... 2 years ago..

[70th Week]

Yeah, God forbid I actually had no idea you could go you whole life and be offered salvation after you died??? But preaching down to someone always works... If you read the thread you would have seen that i've only been to church about 20 times... 2 years ago..

I use to think I was a pretty good person, but then when I looked at God's standard, the Ten Commandments. I found that things like lying, stealing, and blasphemy were horrible in His sight, and that to God even lust was like adultery in the heart (Matthew 5:28). I understood then that if I had died, God would have to give me justice, which meant I'd spend eternity in hell, just like every other human being. But then someone told me something wonderful: that even though I had sinned against God, He still loved me, so much so that He sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to take my punishment. Basically, I'd broken God's Law, but Jesus paid my fine. Then I repented of my sin and put my trust in Him, and He forgave me. He gave me His Holy Spirit to help keep me from sinning and to live for Him.

Now,Jesus gave me another chance and I believe everyone will have a chance to hear the gospel at least once before they die because Jesus said in Matt.that he would not return to earth until the gospel is preached in all nations.As far as your question about those who died before Christ,some scholars say that when Jesus was cruxified,during those 3 days he was in the heart of the earth (hell) preaching the gospel to those that died before Him,for there was a hell and a paradise before Him(parable of rich man and Lazarus)I am sure there are some who have died that have not heard his gospel,but the bible says"to much that is given,much is required"so you have to say to yourself that you have heard so what decision will you make?Hope this answers some of your questions.

[Stigmata]

Nice post goportisgo

Ive always held the belief that when Christ died on the cross, the spiritual meaning also included fullfilling the requirements of the Old testament, so in other words he took not only future sins but covered the past.

So those that fullfilled the law before Christ, will be justifed no longer through the Law but the new law. These passages speaks about Israel, check it out

Romans 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

(Israel is the olive tree, non jews are gentiles) here the gentiles are related to as a wild olive tree, just incase you didnt know..)

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

[70th Week]

great point! :peaceout:

[Zguy28]

I use to think I was a pretty good person, but then when I looked at God's standard, the Ten Commandments. I found that things like lying, stealing, and blasphemy were horrible in His sight, and that to God even lust was like adultery in the heart (Matthew 5:28). I understood then that if I had died, God would have to give me justice, which meant I'd spend eternity in hell, just like every other human being. But then someone told me something wonderful: that even though I had sinned against God, He still loved me, so much so that He sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to take my punishment. Basically, I'd broken God's Law, but Jesus paid my fine. Then I repented of my sin and put my trust in Him, and He forgave me. He gave me His Holy Spirit to help keep me from sinning and to live for Him...

Nobody who reads this post has an excuse on the Day, thats for certain.

Speak the truth to all creation, my brother!