Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'

[Zguy28]

Faith that is seen is not faith, for why would you hope for that which you see..and here lies the crux-ed of it all, Faith. Jesus said My message is easy and my burden is lite, but we tend to make his burden heavy and his message overly complicated when we should just have faith..

Amen Brother!

What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith.

By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. God accepted Abel's offering to show that he was a righteous man. And although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us because of his faith.

It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"suddenly he disappeared because God took him." But before he was taken up, he was approved as pleasing to God. So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

It was by faith that Noah built an ark to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about something that had never happened before. By his faith he condemned the rest of the world and was made right in God's sight.

It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith--for he was like a foreigner, living in a tent. And so did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise. Abraham did this because he was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

It was by faith that Sarah together with Abraham was able to have a child, even though they were too old and Sarah was barren. Abraham believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man, Abraham, who was too old to have any children--a nation with so many people that, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.

All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed the promises of God. They agreed that they were no more than foreigners and nomads here on earth. And obviously people who talk like that are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had meant the country they came from, they would have found a way to go back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God's promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, though God had promised him, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted." Abraham assumed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.

It was by faith that Isaac blessed his two sons, Jacob and Esau. He had confidence in what God was going to do in the future.

It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.

And it was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, confidently spoke of God's bringing the people of Israel out of Egypt. He was so sure of it that he commanded them to carry his bones with them when they left!

It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid of what the king might do.

It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be treated as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of the Messiah than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to the great reward that God would give him. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt. He was not afraid of the king. Moses kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.

It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians followed, they were all drowned.

It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute did not die with all the others in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

Well, how much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death.

But others trusted God and were tortured, preferring to die rather than turn from God and be free. They placed their hope in the resurrection to a better life. Some were mocked, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in dungeons. Some died by stoning, and some were sawed in half; others were killed with the sword. Some went about in skins of sheep and goats, hungry and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world. They wandered over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.

All of these people we have mentioned received God's approval because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had far better things in mind for us that would also benefit them, for they can't receive the prize at the end of the race until we finish the race.

[Xameil]

ah ha.....April fools on you guys....I just made up the whole God and Bible thing......I guess this thread is done......whew...man I had you guys goin'......

Beat that Who Del......

muhahaha you can not kill the thread. :laugh:

The ones that make you look like an aetheist have arrived and will not hear of the thread dying muhahahaha... :laugh: :laugh:

[Stigmata]

Amen Brother!

What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith.

By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.

It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. God accepted Abel's offering to show that he was a righteous man. And although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us because of his faith.

It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"suddenly he disappeared because God took him." But before he was taken up, he was approved as pleasing to God. So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

It was by faith that Noah built an ark to save his family from the flood. He obeyed God, who warned him about something that had never happened before. By his faith he condemned the rest of the world and was made right in God's sight.

It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going. And even when he reached the land God promised him, he lived there by faith--for he was like a foreigner, living in a tent. And so did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise. Abraham did this because he was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.

It was by faith that Sarah together with Abraham was able to have a child, even though they were too old and Sarah was barren. Abraham believed that God would keep his promise. And so a whole nation came from this one man, Abraham, who was too old to have any children--a nation with so many people that, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore, there is no way to count them.

All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed the promises of God. They agreed that they were no more than foreigners and nomads here on earth. And obviously people who talk like that are looking forward to a country they can call their own. If they had meant the country they came from, they would have found a way to go back. But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a heavenly city for them.

It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God's promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, though God had promised him, "Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted." Abraham assumed that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead.

It was by faith that Isaac blessed his two sons, Jacob and Esau. He had confidence in what God was going to do in the future.

It was by faith that Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons and bowed in worship as he leaned on his staff.

And it was by faith that Joseph, when he was about to die, confidently spoke of God's bringing the people of Israel out of Egypt. He was so sure of it that he commanded them to carry his bones with them when they left!

It was by faith that Moses' parents hid him for three months. They saw that God had given them an unusual child, and they were not afraid of what the king might do.

It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be treated as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to share the oppression of God's people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. He thought it was better to suffer for the sake of the Messiah than to own the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking ahead to the great reward that God would give him. It was by faith that Moses left the land of Egypt. He was not afraid of the king. Moses kept right on going because he kept his eyes on the one who is invisible. It was by faith that Moses commanded the people of Israel to keep the Passover and to sprinkle blood on the doorposts so that the angel of death would not kill their firstborn sons.

It was by faith that the people of Israel went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians followed, they were all drowned.

It was by faith that the people of Israel marched around Jericho seven days, and the walls came crashing down.

It was by faith that Rahab the prostitute did not die with all the others in her city who refused to obey God. For she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.

Well, how much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets. By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. Women received their loved ones back again from death.

But others trusted God and were tortured, preferring to die rather than turn from God and be free. They placed their hope in the resurrection to a better life. Some were mocked, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in dungeons. Some died by stoning, and some were sawed in half; others were killed with the sword. Some went about in skins of sheep and goats, hungry and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world. They wandered over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.

All of these people we have mentioned received God's approval because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had far better things in mind for us that would also benefit them, for they can't receive the prize at the end of the race until we finish the race.

Excellent..

[Stigmata]

muhahaha you can not kill the thread. :laugh:

The ones that make you look like an aetheist have arrived and will not hear of the thread dying muhahahaha... :laugh: :laugh:

Do you want this thread to die? if so why? its way more important then pollitics by far..

[O-11]

I usually don't post in forums like this because it seems like it turns into a mudslinging match and that becomes worthless. But on this issue I must say something and I'll just leave it with that. It's funny how we (humans who use a maximum of 10% of our brainpower in an entire lifetime) love to believe that we have some inherited right to believe that we should know and understand all things about existence and, if you will, a sovereign God. How hilarious is that? With my 10% I think that I should know the complexities of the universe and God in their entirety? How foolish and how arrogant.

I have no problem asking questions. Questions are great. As a matter of fact that is exactly how I became a believer in Jesus Christ. I say test it. I laugh everytime I here someone say that Christians are afraid of questions. That's like me saying that all Muslims are suicide bombers. The only problem that I do find with questions is that the one who is questioning many times is not genuine in what they ask. In other words they are just looking to argue no matter what. They do not seriously wish to know, they just want ammunition so they can set back smug and arrogantly call someone a whacko. I have studied Islam in sincerity and found it to be wrong on all the levels that matter most. But I didn't call them whackos or ignorant. I wanted to know if they had the truth. For the last decade I have made a living from historical studies and religious studies. This leads me to the subject here in this thread...

The Gospel of Judas is a joke played on the early church. Pope Gregory I (was Pope 590-604AD) is the man responsible for coming up with the calendar that we use today. He tried his best to date back to when Christ would have been born. He missed the date about 4 years (which is actually pretty good). According to this calendar Christ would've been born in BCE 4. This would have put his death at 29AD because we know from all the accounts of his day that he was approximately 33 years old. The problem with the Gospel of Judas, and I know this is the area that the skeptics of this "Gospel" are going to rip it to shreds, is that Judas also died in 29AD, because he hung himself even before Jesus was tried before a Roman court and was sentenced to death. Here's the main problem...... much of what we know about the characteristics and life of Jesus outside of the Bible comes from a man named Josephus who was a historian and a contemporary of Jesus' day. Josephus is recognized as Rome's greatest historian in the Palestinian area of the first century. Nowhere in his writings of the life of Jesus and after Jesus do we ever hear of him referring to a Gospel of Judas. He certainly talked about all of the other writings that we know as the "Bible", but no "Judas". Josephus was not a Christian by the way and claimed as such, so there should have been nothing stopping him if he wanted to prove this movement wrong.

Secondly, the Jerusalem Council was convened in 55AD to discuss heresies and controversies within the church in regards to false teachings that had started springing up. But NOWHERE is there even the slightest sniff at a "Gospel of Judas", the man Judas, or anything that rhymed with "Judas". If this being a controversial "Gospel", as it is, were on the scene, the Jerusalem Council would have made it a top priority to deal with it. No way do they let this slip away unnoticed. This was the council that was convened to eliminate all heresy within the church from the greatest to the least. Then why was this "Gospel" not dealt with? Because it didn't exist at the time.

I've got to wrap this up....third, the early church convened to find the "inspired" pieces of scriptures. This occured at the Council of Jamnia between 95-100AD. This is where we get our "66 books". This council was convened and attended by men such as Polycarp (69-155AD) who was a disciple of the Apostle John. He had followed John for 15 years before John's exile to the island of Patmos off the coast of Asia Minor in the Aegean Sea around 95AD. Polycarp was a young man who brought John's eyewitness account to the meeting. From that, we know that an eyewitness of Jesus (John) AND all of the testimonies of the early church spoke on behalf of the Council to declare which writings were recognized as authentic and which were frauds perpetuated by people trying to gain noteriety. Credibilty doesn't get any better than that. Yet....no mention of Judas, a Gospel of, or even a family pet named Judas. The first mention of Judas came in the 130's (2nd Century) by a man named Marcion (c.125). It was found later by men such as Ireneaus (130-200AD) that Marcion had possibly forged many documents himself (i.e. the Gospel of Thomas). Marcion believed that there were two Gods, one of the Old Testament and one of the New. There were other heresies that he attempted to spread and was dealt with by the church. The Gospel of Judas can be no earlier dated than that of its first appearance and that was in the early 130's. This would put Judas' "Gospel" 100 years after he hung himself. LUCY, ju got some 'splainin' to do! No records of Josephus (who was not a Christian, just a historian employed by the Roman empire), no records of Paul the Apostle who was the most vicious when it came to dealing with controversy and no doubt would have made this a top priority, and dealt with every controversy known to man, no records of the 1st century church, no records from the Jerusalem Council in 55AD (that recorded everything by the way), no records of the early church having this "Gospel" in circulation, no records of John the Apostle mentioning it, no records from any living eyewitnesses, to Jesus and Judas, friend or foe, no records from Polcarp and Ignatius, no records from Polycarp at the Council of Jamnia (95-100AD) or any records of the council themselves, and no records of the Jews who considered Christianity a cult religion and would have gladly used this as ammunition to the formation of the Christian movement in the 1st century. Yet the second century was notorious for forgeries with Marcion and the gnostic movement starting up when this "Gospel" makes its first appearance on the scene. HMMMMMMMM? I'll take what is "Captain Obvious" for 1000 Alex.

But in the end it's going to sell books and stuff and that's really all that matters to people today. It doesn't really matter if we trash the name of the Messiah....as long as we get a cool looking key chain from Barnes and Noble out of it, we're set.

[Coach Williams]

Do you want this thread to die? if so why? its way more important then pollitics by far..

chill, read the whole thread bro......I don't want it to end, this is just me making a joke about it not ending when I think it will....... :doh: ......explaining sux....

P.S. Someone above me on the page said something I liked......

oh there it is:

Originally Posted by Stigmata

Faith that is seen is not faith, for why would you hope for that which you see..and here lies the crux-ed of it all, Faith. Jesus said My message is easy and my burden is lite, but we tend to make his burden heavy and his message overly complicated when we should just have faith..

how true......I think agnostics need to read that twice because they spend their whole lifes saying "prove it" and just like I said earlier, God let us know as much as we needed already..........If that's not enough then you're not ready.

:applause:

[Stigmata]

chill, read the whole thread bro......I don't want it to end, this is just me making a joke about it not ending when I think it will....... :doh: ......explaining sux....

P.S. Someone above me on the page said something I liked......

oh there it is:

Originally Posted by Stigmata

Faith that is seen is not faith, for why would you hope for that which you see..and here lies the crux-ed of it all, Faith. Jesus said My message is easy and my burden is lite, but we tend to make his burden heavy and his message overly complicated when we should just have faith..

how true......I think agnostics need to read that twice because they spend their whole lifes saying "prove it" and just like I said earlier, God let us know as much as we needed already..........If that's not enough then you're not ready.

:applause:

If i sounded hostel my apologies, saying chill would make it seem is was huffy or what not, and im not

[Coach Williams]

If i sounded hostel my apologies, saying chill would make it seem is was huffy or what not, and im not

K

[AlexRS]

There is a huge difference between "faith" and "blind faith"

Faith does not have to be blind.

It seems the idea is to UNDERSTAND God's will, not just have blind faith in it.

[Stigmata]

There is a huge difference between "faith" and "blind faith"

Faith does not have to be blind.

It seems the idea is to UNDERSTAND God's will, not just have blind faith in it.

True but faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and Also Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, as it pertains to Salvation.

[ZoEd]

0-11, thanks for the history lesson, very enlightening.

[70th Week]

well, did any of you guys watch this Judas crap last night?I caught the last 30 minutes of it and I thought it was quite convenient that in this "text" that it doesnt say what happened to judas in the end or what happened to Jesus,if he was crucified or not.just leave out the most important part of the whole christian faith :doh:

[Xameil]

Do you want this thread to die? if so why? its way more important then pollitics by far..

Joke dude, chill out. I was just responding to KB, so just calm down. everyone who knows me knows I enjoy these debates. :doh:

[Xameil]

well, did any of you guys watch this Judas crap last night?I caught the last 30 minutes of it and I thought it was quite convenient that in this "text" that it doesnt say what happened to judas in the end or what happened to Jesus,if he was crucified or not.just leave out the most important part of the whole christian faith :doh:

I taped...shhh..don't tell me how it ends :laugh: . In your opinion, did they have arguments from both sides? Was it one-sided? Did it stay on middle ground?

Wait, don't tell me, let me figure it out for myself .

[70th Week]

I taped...shhh..don't tell me how it ends :laugh: . In your opinion, did they have arguments from both sides? Was it one-sided? Did it stay on middle ground?

Wait, don't tell me, let me figure it out for myself .

:laugh: :laugh: nah,it wasnt one-sided too bad.you'll find it very informative.(a lot of it was discussed on this thread last week though :applause: )just a gnostic point of view mostly.but what I got out of it was most people they talked to on there don't give this "text" much credit.

[Xameil]

:laugh: :laugh: nah,it wasnt one-sided too bad.you'll find it very informative.(a lot of it was discussed on this thread last week though :applause: )just a gnostic point of view mostly.but what I got out of it was most people they talked to on there don't give this "text" much credit.

OK, I did see about 10 mins of it in the beginning. It seemed like it was going to be fair about it, and that research is still being done on it.

[Thiebear]

Being a born again Heathen I'd swear this was talked about many moons ago as part of the Judas discussion ....

example1: Jesus had to be sacrificed, Judas was born to do it via destiny. (traitor)

example2: Jesus told Judas to do it... (accomplice)

Don't see much difference...

(that whole question about who created god can be answered with)

If a black whole it will swallow planets/light/time... where does it go?

Both questions are impossible for us to answer so why pitch one against the other...

[Xameil]

Being a born again Heathen

:laugh: That's just too funny. It also brings up a question in my mind. what religion is everyone? It's always the same few of us that debate each other in the religious threads.

I'll start. I'm Episcopal, but I think that there is more to the story then what church tells me, and therefore constantly research and debate to get more ideas and info. I believe that both science and religion need each other and fill the holes that exist in both.

Oh yeah for those who don't really understand Episcopal it's been called by some Catholic lite. Mostly even the same service, but Episcopals do not believe in statues, do not do the rosary, and can divorce. Also, Priests are allowed to marry, and I've heard that there are actually some female, and lesbian priests.

[AlexRS]

Religions give us rules on how to act...

What kind of rules are these? Do they seem to resemble actions of certain kinds of individuals?

It seems people we consider Heroes or Saints do not follow these rules for the sake of following them - these people are simply "being themselves"...

Yet their actions come out according to these rules...

Perhaps we should try to actually improve ourselves instead of just "following the rules"

[70th Week]

raised pentecostal but have attended a bapist church for the last 10 years.(wife made me do it)

[Xameil]

raised pentecostal but have attended a bapist church for the last 10 years.(wife made me do it)

I'm kind of fuzzy on those two. What are the differences?

[Stigmata]

I'm kind of fuzzy on those two. What are the differences?

Pentecostals are open to signs and wonders to a high degree, speaking in tongues, healing, words of power, miracles. stuff like that..

Baptists are way more conservative on these matters but still allow it with heavy caution.

[Xameil]

Pentecostals are open to signs and wonders to a high degree, speaking in tongues, healing, words of power, miracles. stuff like that..

Baptists are way more conservative on these matters but still allow it with heavy caution.

thanks. so goportisgo, does this cause a conflict with you? I know that my gf is Catholic, and wants to baptise our baby Catholic, I don't have a problem with it, since the two are so close, but I am not allowed to take communion in a Catholic church, so I'm sure that will raise questions in her mind.

[70th Week]

thanks. so goportisgo, does this cause a conflict with you? I know that my gf is Catholic, and wants to baptise our baby Catholic, I don't have a problem with it, since the two are so close, but I am not allowed to take communion in a Catholic church, so I'm sure that will raise questions in her mind.

no,I have no conflict with it,they just have,like stigmata said,a few differences in doctrine,but Jesus for remission of sins is the same.just a lot more conservative.But one of things that trips me up with the baptist faith is that they believe in eternal security (once saved-always saved)and I was raised that you cant live like hell all week,come to church on sunday,and make it to heaven.But that wouldnt stop me from attending,that it just thier personal beliefs.

[ZoEd]

I'm what we call a Bible Baptist. It's sort of a Southern Baptist/Pentecostal type deal. We believe that you worship the way you worship. Whatever the spirit leads you to do you do. We don't get too caught up on traditions or religious pressures. The Bible is your guide and you do whatever it tells you to do.

Our services are very unscripted. I've been to services where our main preacher will ask another if he has the sermon for the day because he hasn't been led to deliver anything. If the other minister has a sermon he'll give it, if not then we'll sing hymn's for an hour or so and go home. You see we don't believe in forcing the spirit, you let it be your guide. If singing hymns is what moves the spirit then sing. If you're not led to give a sermon then don't. We believe that the worse thing you can do is disobey the spirit, so we don't. When we baptise we go to the river and you get dunked, no sprinkling here.

My Great Grandfather was a devout Penecostal Preacher. No TV, no shorts or genes for women, no makeup, men have short hair, women long hair and their skirts or dresses had to be below the knee's. He was also into the whole snake handling thing. Call it crazy but I witnessed with my own eye's rattlesnakes and copperheads being passed from person to person without incident. Then again I also heard of my grandfather being bitten several times in one night. He'd go home with an arm swollen 5 or 6 times it's normal size refusing to go to the hospital. He'd wake up in the morning, the swelling would be gone and he'd go to work. Crazy stuff but I guess if you have faith and believe then it's okay.