Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'

[Zguy28]

And can someone explain to me why a lifetime of 60 years of works vs. 20 minutes of I now need you cause I screwed up seems to be the right way???

that brochure is lacking in substance...

60 years of good works do not outweigh the sin committed in that time. The whole point is that you cannot earn your way. The whole message of Christianity is that you can't do it. Everyone has sinned (Rom 3:23) and broken God's law.

"And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God's laws. For the same God who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." So if you murder someone, you have broken the entire law, even if you do not commit adultery."

James 2:10-11

[Zguy28]

I think this thread is actually more interesting now that you guys are debating each others interpretation. It's actually more interesting to read how you three ultra christians

I prefer Uber-Christian! J/K:D

The thing I noticed was how the Protestant type religions (Pentecostal, Basptist, etc.) go word for word with the Bible, and the other side, the Catholics, and me, the lone Episcopal, go more for the read between the lines.

Thats called having a different hermeneutic and it goes back as far as Origen of Alexandria and Theodore of Mopsuestia.

I don't know how the you guys' pastors (I think that's what they are called for you) conduct church as much, but from my understanding, it must have to do with the style of sermons. I know in the Catholic and Episcopal, after the Gospel is read, the Priest kinda ties his sermon in and puts in interpretations. This is probably why the Catholics, and I debate these religious threads the way we do. Whereas, from what I gather on the other religions you are go more for the literal interpretations.

Our Pastor reads the scripture and his sermon is a mix of the literal meaning of it (what the origianl author meant) and how to apply it to our lives today. We do Bible studies to learn more in-depth knowledge on scripture.

But since you guys are not from the EXACT sect of Protestant (do you guys even consider yourselves protestant?) your translations of each scripture although almost the same differs in varying ways.

Their are many great translations, and to get a deep understanding of Scripture, I suggest reading it in several such as the King James, New International, and New Living Translation versions. Some are more literal (word order)than others, while some are translated into English grammar style to allow easier reading.

[Xameil]

I prefer Uber-Christian! J/K:D

Thats called having a different hermeneutic and it goes back as far as Origen of Alexandria and Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Our Pastor reads the scripture and his sermon is a mix of the literal meaning of it (what the origianl author meant) and how to apply it to our lives today. We do Bible studies to learn more in-depth knowledge on scripture. Their are many great translations, and to get a deep understanding of Scripture, I suggest reading it in several such as the King James, New International, and New Living Translation versions. Some are more literal (word order)than others, while some are translated into English grammar style to allow easier reading.

:laugh: I used uber-christian last time...I'm trying to mix it up :laugh:

I do read as many resources I can when I research stuff for my own personal knowledge. That's why I like debating with you guys about this. Sometimes it gives me new articles to read and gateways to even more sources. I like reading both sides, I like expanding my own theories to religions (yes I try and study as many as possible), and see how they compare and find the similarities, and differences and try and figure out why the differences.

Maybe it has something to do with the Tower of Babble in some way

[Zguy28]

Maybe it has something to do with the Tower of Babble in some way

Ever notice how modern linguists believe that language is descended from an Indo-European/Semitic/Turkic root and the Tower of Babel is in roughly the same place?

Much debate on that one as well.

[Xameil]

Ever notice how modern linguists believe that language is descended from an Indo-European/Semitic/Turkic root and the Tower of Babel is in roughly the same place?

Much debate on that one as well.

As a matter of fact I have.

[Thiebear]

60 years of good works do not outweigh the sin committed in that time. The whole point is that you cannot earn your way. The whole message of Christianity is that you can't do it. Everyone has sinned (Rom 3:23) and broken God's law.

"And the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God's laws. For the same God who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." So if you murder someone, you have broken the entire law, even if you do not commit adultery."

James 2:10-11

Did you say you can't earn your way :notworthy

It's not what you do, its who you know as a religion...

Isn't God good?!It dont matter how much you've done wrong God still loves you and is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.He casts your sins into the sea of forgetfulness!Just like the story of the prodigal son no matter what he did he was still able to come home to his fathers house just like we are when we stray from God!

So in this club it doesnt matter what you do over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... Just that you tell your preacher that you accept him as your savior? All is good.

Kill someone, 3 hail mary's...

Rape a chile: Wiped clean

Comitted Adlutery for 22years with 13 women (cleansed from the records)

Live by his word: sorry... burn in hell forever.... say my name, say my name.

I know I'm a measley human, but that doesnt pass the common sense test?

Edit: Oh well hopefully i won't get hit by a bus and have a chance to say your my guy to the top 3 religions just to hedge my bet...

[Stigmata]

No,it says talking about people that have TURNED from their unrighteousness,not false teachers.false teachers never had any righteousness.it says TURNED as if they were once living right.You cant say that if someone had lived their whole life for Jesus,fall back into sin,murder,or something else,the only thing you can say is they were never really saved to begin with just sounds kind of weak to me.[/quote

From the Mathew henry concice commentary on the bible, a well respect theologian..

Impure seducers and their abandoned followers, give themselves up to their own fleshly minds. Refusing to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ, they act against God's righteous precepts. They walk after the flesh, they go on in sinful courses, and increase to greater degrees of impurity and wickedness. They also despise those whom God has set in authority over them, and requires them to honour. Outward temporal good things are the wages sinners expect and promise themselves. And none have more cause to tremble, than those who are bold to gratify their sinful lusts, by presuming on the Divine grace and mercy. Many such there have been, and are, who speak lightly of the restraints of God's law, and deem themselves freed from obligations to obey it. Let Christians stand at a distance from such. (2Pe 2:17-22)

[ZoEd]

If you want a non biased accoun, historical account of biblical times check out the book of Josephous. He had no ties to the church, he merely documented historical event's as they were told. Very interesting read.

As far as religions go, I don't think any one religion has totally hit the nail on the head. Believing in what the bible say's, taking it as the written word of God and believing that Jesus is the only true path to God is what's most important, everything else is preference. I think too many people get caught up in religion and lose track of what's really important.

[Xameil]

that Jesus is the only true path to God is what's most important, everything else is preference. I think too many people get caught up in religion and lose track of what's really important.

So basically, all Jewish and Muslims are damned because in their faith Jesus is just a prophet and not the savior?

[70th Week]

So basically, all Jewish and Muslims are damned because in their faith Jesus is just a prophet and not the savior?

see John 14:6 (I didnt say it Jesus did :secret: )

[The Sisko]

Incredibly eloquent and insightful comments regarding the nature of God Jumbo. I agree with you that as humans we often ascribe human traits to God. However, given our limited understanding I think that's somewhat natural.

Like you I draw the line at saying "our way is the only way or you're going to hell". A scholar I respect very much once said to me that religion is a lot like a mountain. We're all climbing towards the same summit, however the view we get is determined by which side of the mountain we're climbing. Ultimately, I think that's a good thing as it allows for the interpretation of God and a "good" life to be determined by the lens of culture, heritage, epoch etc.

As for me I see God as much more of a disinterested observer of the things that go on here on our little dirtball. I think it's a deal where if the kids really get out of hand and get to the point where they're going to really mess something up then I'll step in. Otherwise, you're on your own. In the overall scheme of the universe, Earth and humans are so insignificant that I just don't see it all being such a big deal to one who is truly omnipotent.

[Zguy28]

Like you I draw the line at saying "our way is the only way or you're going to hell". A scholar I respect very much once said to me that religion is a lot like a mountain. We're all climbing towards the same summit, however the view we get is determined by which side of the mountain we're climbing. Ultimately, I think that's a good thing as it allows for the interpretation of God and a "good" life to be determined by the lens of culture, heritage, epoch etc.

How can you have faith in anything if the fundamental doctrine of your faith is that it is right, and all others are wrong? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Jesus said He was "I AM" which is the name of God. He also said He was the only way to Heaven. Yet you claim all "sides of the mountain" lead to the same place. No offense intended, but someones not telling the truth, and I doubt Jesus was a liar.

As for me I see God as much more of a disinterested observer of the things that go on here on our little dirtball. I think it's a deal where if the kids really get out of hand and get to the point where they're going to really mess something up then I'll step in. Otherwise, you're on your own. In the overall scheme of the universe, Earth and humans are so insignificant that I just don't see it all being such a big deal to one who is truly omnipotent.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, Jesus must have been lying to us again when He said: "Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. Luke 12:27-30

[The Sisko]

There's a fundamental logical flaw in your reasoning Zguy. How does one go to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and then use the Bible to prove your point?

As for the Christian's contention that Christianity is the only way, what about all those millions upon millions of people throughout human history that weren't in the middle east and never had the opportunity to hear of God, Jesus or the whole Judeo-Christian message? Since they never had an opportunity to hear about (our concept of) God or Jesus, it appears that God created them to serve no purpose other than to eventually go to Hell. Sorry, that just doesn't sound like the just and compassionate God you all speak of.

[Zguy28]

There's a fundamental logical flaw in your reasoning Zguy. How does one go to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible and then use the Bible to prove your point?

Well its like this...Jesus said He was God to the disciples, in person. Jesus believed the Scripture (Bible) was the Word of God. Also witnessed by the disciples before it was written. If I believe Jesus is God, then I must believe what He believed. Hence the Bible is the Word of God. Special Revelation plays a big part too. If God reveals Himself to you and choses you to folow Him, you will believe.

Like the guy that read the bible and said "man this is dry, I don't understand it." When he got saved he said "Who rewrote the Bible? This isn't the same book."

As for the Christian's contention that Christianity is the only way, what about all those millions upon millions of people throughout human history that weren't in the middle east and never had the opportunity to hear of God, Jesus or the whole Judeo-Christian message? Since they never had an opportunity to hear about (our concept of) God or Jesus, it appears that God created them to serve no purpose other than to eventually go to Hell. Sorry, that just doesn't sound like the just and compassionate God you all speak of.

Ah yes. Well the Bible is true but its not necessarily the only ways that God has worked in people for salvation. Their is some recorded in the Bible though, such as Abraham, who while never knowing Jesus Christ or the Gospel, had faith that God would send a savior to save him from the sinful human condition. This faith was credited to him as righteousness for salvation.

[Jumbo]

To Yusuf:

When someone starts from a position that their point of view is inherently true because they have accurate access to an infallible source, there is no prophet to be gained in debate with them, or in trying to change their mind in any way, or in trying to satisfy a desire for them to concede any merit to a differing view, that you may embrace.

That comment is not to discredit their way, it is simply acknowledging the reality of how it works. Therefore I never engage in such exchanges with such goals or motives in mind. I think it is better spiritually and pragmatically that not everyone believes the same things about our nature, divine or otherwise.

In such matters as religion, and to a lesser extent, politics, all I will do (rarely) is offer my own thoughts to the matter, for what they're worth, without seeking any particular return, though many, differing, returns are often appreciated.

[Thiebear]

A man lives in a little hut just outside the village...

No electricity, so all he does is chop wood and make wooden toys for kids every year right after summer ends..

After a long life of giving to others he gets???

Nothing, because he never heard of a prophet named Jesus?

Seems like a rather sad reason for not getting to hang out in heaven...

[Stigmata]

So basically, all Jewish and Muslims are damned because in their faith Jesus is just a prophet and not the savior?

See, this may be hard to grasp, but when Jesus came on the scene the Jewish leaders rejected him. Its a higher Archy thing, they would have had to give up there status and authority to a new (WAY) and the new way was , the Law of God will dwell in you.

In the times of the old Testament God was more in the physical, like for example the tabernacle, he was carried around on kinda like a stretcher, this is where the Ark of the covenant was being carried, with a tent covering what was inside, there were lightnings and thunder when God Spoke from the tabernacle.

Lets look at Mosses with the burning bush, that was a visible manifestation, or the miracles when he confronted the Pharaoh, when Paul was knocked off his horse and an audible voice came from heaven, Saul Saul why do you kick against the pricks.

Or when Jesus was baptised and God spoke audibly and said (this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased.

We have the old Testament and the New, Jesus is the New testament, a better way. The bible says with out the shedding of blood there can be no remissions of sins. this is where the Pure lamb of God comes in, Jesus was a sinless sacrifice that will cover all sin.

The Law even adheres to this (ie) or Jewish law, the Torra, the commandments of God given to the people to perform. The lamb of God had not come yet so they had to perform acts of the shedding of blood to cleans there sins. Hence the killing of a unblemished lamb..

this Law was ancient and had been preformed for alooooog time, the Pharisees and Sadducees had a lock on the law and people looked at them as holy and kinda a link to them and God..

So Jesus comes along and says, no more Law, believe in me and you will be just as saved as performing the letter of the law, not only that, it will be burned into you hearts to instinctively (once you accept me) to do the Law naturally in your hearts, you will be inclined to not steal,lie,covet, ect i will give you an unction the bible calls it like a change of heart..

Jews can be saved, no problem but to Reject Christ means you need a replacement witch is the Law, and you must live by the letter of the law and perform the tenants of the law.

Jesus taught trust me, place your burdens on me (i am the way the truth and the life) not the law anymore, i am taking its place because you fail over and over, ill make it easy just trust me have faith in me. I will replace the law and take the sins that you will fail at trying to preform the law upon myself, i am now your Law..

The Jewish leadership had been in control here for alooong time, there status is being threatened, is it no wonder hey hung him on a cross.

Muslims quite frankly, i feel they are misinterpreting there own Koran to justify (holy war).. its a shame because really Islam is much like Christianity, about peace and love and laying down with the lion ect. Reminds me of the crusades when the Catholic church justified conquering the world in the name of Christ, very similar actually..

[The Sisko]

Point well taken Jumbo. A tip of the hat to you sir.

And Stigmata you are correct about the misinterpretations of the Quran by radical Islamists. Many of the acts carried out under the banner of so called jihad are actually forbidden. In fact Islam makes a distinction between "just" war (i.e. jihad) and "unjust" war (i.e. hirabah).

[Stigmata]

To Yusuf:

When someone starts from a position that their point of view is inherently true because they have accurate access to an infallible source, there is no prophet to be gained in debate with them, or in trying to change their mind in any way, or in trying to satisfy a desire for them to concede any merit to a differing view, that you may embrace.

That comment is not to discredit their way, it is simply acknowledging the reality of how it works. Therefore I never engage in such exchanges with such goals or motives in mind. I think it is better spiritually and pragmatically that not everyone believes the same things about our nature, divine or otherwise.

In such matters as religion, and to a lesser extent, politics, all I will do (rarely) is offer my own thoughts to the matter, for what they're worth, without seeking any particular return, though many, differing, returns are often appreciated.

Hmmm man your right on but seems fatalistic really, if i felt that why i would never join a forum to begin with.

Of course there will be debate, of course there will be anger, disagreement, dogmatism ect. the only way to know a persons goals is to have an exchange of ideas.

Sometimes i feel like that, and act on not engaging, and usually its over being spent on engagement..

[Xameil]

So tell me Stig...did you really think I'd have a hard time to grasp your interpretations, because I can ya know...I have my moments of intelligence. And just so you know, (which I'm sure you must) Jesus was a priest, in his early years, the Jewish priests were impressed with him. They just didn't like him rocking the boat. This is a terrible analogy, but you could say he was their cult leader...in their eyes. In 100 years wouldn't we be surprised if we find out that in fact David Koresh was actually a savior, and an entire religion gets based on him..or how about we go with something more recent and has caught on...scientology.

To Christians, it is absurd, but to them it is "the way". But maybe that's tough to grasp.

[Jumbo]

Stigmata--Hmmm man your right on but seems fatalistic really, if i felt that why i would never join a forum to begin with.

Well, since fatalism is the doctrine that all events are predetermined and unalterable, I can say it doesn't fit for me, although it fits many stong religious beliefs.

One answer, though, is in the last of what I said perviously: "to offer my own thoughts to the matter, for what they're worth, without seeking any particular return, though many, differing, returns are often appreciated."

To re-phrase, presenting new grist for the mill, and enjoying responses without needing to change minds can be the point to participating. Another piece of wisdom I heed (from an uncle) is that I learn more when I cease to preach and choose to listen and reflect instead.

Just considering the thoughts of others can be enough at times. And my whole day is unusually full of exchanges of thoughts where I have to provide much content. But I do speak here too, although 98% of my words were devoted to football as that was my main purpose. I'm involving myself a bit more here in the tailgate on both suggestion and interest.

The reasons to be in a forum are numerous.

Of course there will be debate, of course there will be anger, disagreement, dogmatism ect.

There can be, and such hardly bothers me--sometimes the opposite--but it is not inevitable, even if common. It is simply a choice made by the participant. Quite often (not always) the angry or the intensely-resolute choice arises out of ego-insecurity and fear-activated defensiveness, though that fear will sometimes disguise itself as outward strength and sureness, or even bluster.

the only way to know a persons goals is to have an exchange of ideas.

Is it now? Why would I have to hear your ideas in order to describe my goals to you, or vice versa? But I confess, that's me being a little argumentative just to tease.

An exchange is where each party gives in return for something received. Now if you define receiving an idea as hearing it and then rejecting it, I can go with that, but it's defined differently in the dictionary. Acceptance of each item brought for trade by the other defines exchange, normally. In the case of ideas, acceptance can be a very broad term however, and can apply to even the mildest of modifciations or minutest of expansions in a previously held belief or opinion.

Notice how language specificity is challenging even when two people from the same time and place working within a common lingo have different meanings and understandings of simple words, let alone how things change in these manners, and dramatically, over centuries. But I digress.

While I don't have to tell you my ideas to hear your goals, it has been my experience that if we develop a connection, I’m likely to hear a more detailed and complete version of your goals with better understanding on my part.

Sometimes i feel like that, and act on not engaging, and usually its over being spent on engagement..

One of the many wise reasons to pass on some such opportunities.

There are some great discussions with worthy participants on all sides in this forum, IMO. And then there are other things, too. :laugh:

[The Sisko]

Actually Stig, I think Jumbo was speaking in somewhat general terms and in doing so he made a point that gets to the heart of why I often don't enjoy discussing these issues with Christians. That is, in most cases when they enter into a discussion with you their definition of a discussion is "I tell you the good news and you agree". Any points you might make to the contrary either fall on deaf ears or, more often, go in one ear and out the other without ever rattling around in between.

My wife and I have religious discussions all the time. She's a Christian (unfortunately, most of you all wouldn't consider her a Christian since she doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, but I digress) and she's fully able to agree when I make good points and vice versa when she does the same. In a perfect world everyone would be this way and would in turn go forth and raise these same issues with others of their same faith.

[ZoEd]

A man lives in a little hut just outside the village...

No electricity, so all he does is chop wood and make wooden toys for kids every year right after summer ends..

After a long life of giving to others he gets???

Nothing, because he never heard of a prophet named Jesus?

Seems like a rather sad reason for not getting to hang out in heaven...

So check this out. If a person is completely ignorant to the word of God and doesn't know the path to salvation then no he will not perish. Plain and simply you have to have known God and denied him to be denied everlasting life. That's what I was told growing up, I'm sure there's people better versed in the scripture that can quote it for you.

[Coach Williams]

So check this out. If a person is ompletely ignorant to the word of God and doesn't know the path to salvation then no he will not perish. Plain and simply you have to have known God and denied him to be denied everlasting life. That's what I was told growing up, I'm sure there's people better versed in the scripture that can quote it for you.

I could'a sworn SOMEWHERE in the bible it says EVERYONE gets a chance to turn to God.......now wheather or not it is this lifetime, pergatory or another life who knows......we aren't in any position to judge Gods plan because we still haven't figured out wtf a blackhole is:laugh:......I don't think we can handle the truth:doh:

[ZoEd]

As usual King your take on things is alway's, if nothing else, entertaining.