Text might be hidden 'Gospel of Judas'

[Johnny Punani2]

Come on. Salvation? Why do people believe that Jesus was the son of God? Because his mother was a virgin? Yeah right! If Mary was a virgin, George W Bush is a smart guy. Jesus was a great MAN but nothing more IMO. Salvation through Jesus is a wonderful thing IMO, but believing its the only way is ignorant and displays a lack of understanding of his teachings.

Meanwhile you have ZERO understanding of his teachings or anything to do with this topic...

John 14:6

I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.

Guess who said that?

[Coach Williams]

Meanwhile you have ZERO understanding of his teachings or anything to do with this topic...

John 14:6

I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.

Guess who said that?

:laugh:.....

......he's researched theology as much as I have on the latest sewing techniques....

dittily **** :blahblah:

P.S. I just realized why he thinks this......Jesus was Middle Eastern and according to him "SEAN TAYLOR IS GOD." I knew racism was behind all this:D

[Jumbo]

For me, what a person's spiritual beliefs is a matter to be respected. And there is much beauty in most all belief systems, and commonalities that reflect some wonderful aspects of being human.

I have long considered the implications of the reality that a person's beliefs, however devout or fervent, is going to be simply, inevitably, and powerfully connected to the culture, historical time, and personal environment in which that person develops, and not just in some auspicious and inherently "truer" connection to spirituality, or concept of God, to which they happened to be exposed.

The most dedicated and devout Muslim in the world today, would not grow up with those same specific religious beliefs if born 3000 years ago in the Yang Tze valley, yet they would have been every bit as human in feelings and thoughts. But, like most humans, that person would have sought some explanations of spiritual nature for their life experiences, and would have found it in understandably different forms. The same can be said of the beliefs of the Australian bushman born 100 years ago, or to be creative, those of the child born 1000 years from today.

For me, most formal religion is more about the organizing of man's desire to make a spiritual connection. And such formal religious institutions of man, whether divinely inspired or not, and to what degree or not, is openly and inevitably vulnerable to man’s flaws and his motives in its compilation, content, interpretation, evolution, and application.

This seems unavoidably obvious to me, no matter how firmly any tradition to faithfully render a story in its passing through millennia is held. Thus, I don’t agree when any member of any faith assumes that failure to accept a certain primary tenet automatically results in some type of punitive or “natural” eternal damnation, assuming such exists.

I say that, understanding that the default positions for many believers is "but we were given THE REAL truth by HIM, unlike the others."

I also have a negative reaction when some express their beliefs in a manner that strongly intrudes upon the freedoms and rights of others (like with explosives), whether they consider such intrusions part of their religion’s mandate or not.

One thing regarding my concept of God as I can’t understand him, is that he should hardly suffer from the limitations of the same personality foibles that hamper man. All too often, what I see in most visions of His nature is simply a man, a really nice and better man than most, with lots and lots of power and tremendous quantities of love and forgiveness, but still subject to rage, indignation, demanding of worship, or stuck with raising his children by standard reward and punishment themes tied to required recognition for the good he does, or makes avaliable if certain conditions are met. That just sounds too human to me.

Personally, I tend to envision God as more than even some exceptionally well-balanced human-type being with tons of ultimate super-powers. I rather see Him as an agent beyond the limitations of all our emotional and behavioral baggage that we seem to insist projecting onto Him. I think the reality of such a being would be far greater than our attempts to characterize Him, even while insisting we're just going by what He told us.

Much writing in various religions stresses humility. I see arrogance in believing one has been given the only truth, has interpreted it perfectly and passed it on unchanged, and that no other way can result in the same degree of salvation. But I wish them well, too, after all wtf do I know, plus I was raised Catholic. :laugh:

[Stigmata]

The bible refers to Christ as being from the beginning, Jesus said something like, before the world was (I AM) and also the world was created by him and with out him nothing was made, something like that.

Salvation is Salvation, if you find salvation down this path or that path it doesn't matter, ultimately, if it really is true salvation, rather the person who is saved or not realizes it the credit for his salvation will go to Christ, as its been mention Christ says he is the way the truth and the life NO man can come to the father but by me. i don't think there is a defined path to salvation, i just feel only because of Christ can one be saved.

The post above me talks about truth, i think salvation inputs truth in you, truth is only subjective in the mind of man, there really is only 1 truth, i don't pretend to understand the full scope of ultimate truth, Jesus is Truth, if you have him you have the truth rather you fully comprehend it or not.

I do not find if I'm claiming Jesus is the truth and i have him arrogant, the truth is in me i understand some of the truth that resides in me but not all, i will someday just not today. saying i can identify truth and explain it are to different things.

[Xameil]

Awesome post Jumbo...but then you said you were Catholic, so you just threw it all away :laugh:

J/K, seriously well written.

[70th Week]

hmm, Jesus said all that the father hath given me shall come to me, and on the last day i shall lose nothing..

I believe in Jesus promise, he said who so ever believes in me i will in no wise cast out.

There are intellectual Christians who understand salvation in there mind and there are those who believe it in there heart.

Remember the parable of the sower, some seed fell on rocky soil and it grew for a time then withered, some grew in the thorns and got choked then died, some grew on fertile ground and grew into a huge tree that the birds came and nestled in the branches..

Not everyone is a Christian even though they proclaim it, The gospels proclaim many are called but few are chosen. Also in revelations it says, And in that day many will come to me and say Father Father have we not prophesied in your name have we not done many miracles and wonders and cast out demons in your name, and he will look upon them and say depart from me ye workers of iniquity i never knew you..

There is a huge difference in saying your a follower of Christ and actually knowing him, if you don't know him- guess what he doesn't know you, knowing is a intimate ordeal not a mental thing, true Christians for real have Christ walking with them everyday.

Jesus said seek and you shall find, knock and a door will be open, if hes not at the level in your life your not actively seeking him. But True Christians will never lose there salvation, for people who are not true Christians were never saved to begin with.

well, I see your point,but if it is true,why is the word backslide in your bible?Why doesnt it say you were never saved to begin with?I dont think so.think about the passage about a dog returning to his vomit.how about in rev.2(or 3?)about LOSING your first love?God says He will take away your inheritance. :2cents:

[Stigmata]

well, I see your point,but if it is true,why is the word backslide in your bible?Why doesnt it say you were never saved to begin with?I dont think so.think about the passage about a dog returning to his vomit.how about in rev.2(or 3?)about LOSING your first love?God says He will take away your inheritance. :2cents:

The premis to me is flawed in light of my beliefs, how can you backslide if your truly saved? if its true (and i think it is) you cant lose your salvation then someone who is truly saved cant fully backslide to the point of losing his/her salvation.

The bible says, By grace are you saved (through faith) and that not OF yourselves it is the GIFT of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them..

I shudder to think that once i have been given this gift that God would take it away.. I think not, I dont think God changes his mind. How can you have faith in a promise if the promise changes?

[70th Week]

The premis to me is flawed in light of my beliefs, how can you backslide if your truly saved? if its true (and i think it is) you cant lose your salvation then someone who is truly saved cant fully backslide to the point of losing his/her salvation.

The bible says, By grace are you saved (through faith) and that not OF yourselves it is the GIFT of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them..

I shudder to think that once i have been given this gift that God would take it away.. I think not, I dont think God changes his mind. How can you have faith in a promise if the promise changes?

You are right,God never changes his mind,it is us who decides not to follow Him.

2 Peter

2:21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2:22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

But I guess its just a matter of opinion I guess,just as long as we agree that Jesus is the way for remission of sins :applause:

[Stigmata]

You are right,God never changes his mind,it is us who decides not to follow Him.

2 Peter

2:21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2:22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

But I guess its just a matter of opinion I guess,just as long as we agree that Jesus is the way for remission of sins :applause:

Well i would suggest you read all the text that leads up to 2 Peter 21/22 i really feel its talking about false teachers here, people who have put on the face of Christ to gain followers and know his words and can do xyz but inside they really are not of Christ..

[Stigmata]

But I guess its just a matter of opinion I guess,just as long as we agree that Jesus is the way for remission of sins :applause:

Yes your so right this is what matters, the rest is academic, still fun to discuss, but ultimately you have it right.

[70th Week]

Well i would suggest you read all the text that leads up to 2 Peter 21/22 i really feel its talking about false teachers here, people who have put on the face of Christ to gain followers and know his words and can do xyz but inside they really are not of Christ..

No,it says talking about people that have TURNED from their unrighteousness,not false teachers.false teachers never had any righteousness.it says TURNED as if they were once living right.You cant say that if someone had lived their whole life for Jesus,fall back into sin,murder,or something else,the only thing you can say is they were never really saved to begin with just sounds kind of weak to me.

[70th Week]

Yes your so right this is what matters, the rest is academic, still fun to discuss, but ultimately you have it right.

Yes,best discussion i've had in a while :applause:

[Thiebear]

My favorite question is always:

If i live by the teachings and always try to do good I can't get to heaven because I'm only doing WHAT [insert your savior here] said, not bowing to him as an entity

?

But that 8x rapist down the block finds [insert your savior here] and goes right in VIP style?

Seems contradictory to me. Do as i say wait, no believe in me and do as you wish?

[70th Week]

I kind of agree what thiebear said,eternal salvation does come off to some people like that and that is why it is dangerous,like I said before people think they can live like hell,come to church on sunday and its okay.On the other hand,I do believe a rapist can make it to heaven thru Jesus Christ but it says everyone will be judged according to their own works.

I mean,what are you going to tell people that do this?you are not really saved?you think they will believe you?

[Zguy28]

The premis to me is flawed in light of my beliefs, how can you backslide if your truly saved? if its true (and i think it is) you cant lose your salvation then someone who is truly saved cant fully backslide to the point of losing his/her salvation.

The bible says, By grace are you saved (through faith) and that not OF yourselves it is the GIFT of God. Not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them..

I shudder to think that once i have been given this gift that God would take it away.. I think not, I dont think God changes his mind. How can you have faith in a promise if the promise changes?

I agree totally. No man can resist God's grace when it is laid upon them and they are chosen.

"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

False conversion is a terrible tragedy. I am referring to people who come to Jesus for personal fulfillment and such. The modern gospel has become man-centered instead of God centered. This is why Christianity is held in contempt and rendered useless in society IMO.

To the Christian, Christianity is about self-denial. We are by nature selfish. That is why the Bible warns that narrow is the gate that leads to life, but broad is the way that leads to destruction. We must take up the cross and follow Him.

To the unbeliever, Christianity is also about salvation from sins: lying, stealing, blasphemy, adultery of the heart (lust and fornication), hate (which the Bible says is murder), unjust anger, etc. Many believe God is a loving old Santa Clause figure who will forgive everything and let them into heaven. They couldn't be more wrong.

Imagine you are pulled over by a cop. He says you were going 65mph through a handicapped kids school zone where the speed limit is 5mph. Better yet they got you on tape. You go before the Judge, he shows the tape, and he says "what do you have to say for yourself?" You say "well judge, I am guilty, but you have a reputation as good man, I am sorry for what I did and I was hoping you would overlook my crime and show leniency." The judge replies: "You are right, you should be sorry and I am a good man. And I am also a good and just judge. I must see justice served or I would be corrupt. I am fining you $25,000." There is no way you can pay that! Its too much. Just as the judge is bringing his gavel down a stranger steps in and says "I will pay the fine. He is my friend." The judge say your free to go, but tells you to not do it again.

God is the judge. We are the transgressor of God's law. One day we will stand before Him in judgement and all of our sins, public and private, will be brought before us as evidence of our guilt. There will be no leniency. God is just and must see justice served, it is who He is. Jesus is the stranger who paid our fine. We just need to accept it in our heart and repent (turn away from sin).

[Zguy28]

My favorite question is always:

If i live by the teachings and always try to do good I can't get to heaven because I'm only doing WHAT [insert your savior here] said, not bowing to him as an entity

?

But that 8x rapist down the block finds [insert your savior here] and goes right in VIP style?

Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Seems contradictory to me. Do as i say wait, no believe in me and do as you wish?

It's not contradictory because you've got it wrong. Its believe in Me and do as I wish. Christians are called to do God's will, not their own. Too many Christians use prayer as a wish list to God. It is not. We pray to get in tune with God's will for our lives, not to get what we want. Jesus taught that clearly in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[Zguy28]

I kind of agree what thiebear said,eternal salvation does come off to some people like that and that is why it is dangerous,like I said before people think they can live like hell,come to church on sunday and its okay.On the other hand,I do believe a rapist can make it to heaven thru Jesus Christ but it says everyone will be judged according to their own works.

I mean,what are you going to tell people that do this?you are not really saved?you think they will believe you?

Everyone will be judged on their works at the throne. For the unbeliever, they will be used as evidence of guilt. For believers, they will determine rewards in heaven. But works, whether evil or good, DO NOT determine salvation. Many books will be opened on that day, but only if you r name is written in the Book of Life, will you be saved. If you believe in Jesus Christ and repent, your previous sins (like a 8x rapist) will be washed away by Christ and you will not be accountable for them on the Day of Judgement. You will be accountable for what you do afterward.

[techboy]

Guys, you may want to use Bible Gateway instead of memory and/or paraphrase.

Choose your translation (even the aforementioned King James!), cut and paste, and voila!

For example:

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Hebrews 6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

[Zguy28]

Guys, you may want to use Bible Gateway instead of memory and/or paraphrase.

Choose your translation (even the aforementioned King James!), cut and paste, and voila!

I do that for most. Thanks.

[70th Week]

Everyone will be judged on their works at the throne. For the unbeliever, they will be used as evidence of guilt. For believers, they will determine rewards in heaven. But works, whether evil or good, DO NOT determine salvation. Many books will be opened on that day, but only if you r name is written in the Book of Life, will you be saved. If you believe in Jesus Christ and repent, your previous sins (like a 8x rapist) will be washed away by Christ and you will not be accountable for them on the Day of Judgement. You will be accountable for what you do afterward.

Great post.

[Xameil]

I think this thread is actually more interesting now that you guys are debating each others interpretation. It's actually more interesting to read how you three ultra christians (please pardon the expression, I'm just trying to differentiate between you guys and the other christians who have posted) interpret the scriptures then the people who were initially on the other side of the debate. The thing I noticed was how the Protestant type religions (Pentecostal, Basptist, etc.) go word for word with the Bible, and the other side, the Catholics, and me, the lone Episcopal, go more for the read between the lines.

I don't know how the you guys' pastors (I think that's what they are called for you) conduct church as much, but from my understanding, it must have to do with the style of sermons. I know in the Catholic and Episcopal, after the Gospel is read, the Priest kinda ties his sermon in and puts in interpretations. This is probably why the Catholics, and I debate these religious threads the way we do. Whereas, from what I gather on the other religions you are go more for the literal interpretations. But since you guys are not from the EXACT sect of Protestant (do you guys even consider yourselves protestant?) your translations of each scripture although almost the same differs in varying ways.

I know I must seem like Captain Obvious here, but it kinda just dawned on me...must have been taht second cup of coffee.

[70th Week]

and who says the bible is not alive there is a lot of stuff in that dusty ol' book! :applause:

good thing about it is there wont be any denominations in heaven

[Xameil]

and who says the bible is not alive

:laugh: I already called it a living document earlier in the thread

[Thiebear]

Everyone will be judged on their works at the throne. For the unbeliever, they will be used as evidence of guilt. For believers, they will determine rewards in heaven. But works, whether evil or good, DO NOT determine salvation.

Believe in me will get you in, NOT in what you do

Many books will be opened on that day, but only if you r name is written in the Book of Life, will you be saved. If you believe in Jesus Christ and repent, your previous sins (like a 8x rapist) will be washed away by Christ and you will not be accountable for them on the Day of Judgement. You will be accountable for what you do afterward.

So the lifetime of Greed/Rape/Glutony/Adultery washed away at the age of 75 when their done whoring or sitting in a cell with nothing else to read... nice....

And can someone explain to me why a lifetime of 60 years of works vs. 20 minutes of I now need you cause I screwed up seems to be the right way???

that brochure is lacking in substance...

[70th Week]

And can someone explain to me why a lifetime of 60 years of works vs. 20 minutes of I now need you cause I screwed up seems to be the right way???

that brochure is lacking in substance...

Isn't God good?!It dont matter how much you've done wrong God still loves you and is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.He casts your sins into the sea of forgetfulness!Just like the story of the prodigal son no matter what he did he was still able to come home to his fathers house just like we are when we stray from God! :applause: