Seriously this is getting ridiculous. a rant.

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Ryman, It's a sad state of affairs. I have been so fed up with it for so long I just stopped posting. I also severely curtailed my stopping by in the past year or so.

When I do stop by I will read some of my old and new favorite posters but thats about it. This place has lost that magic that was once extremeskins. There is only a brief twinkle of that old extreme magic every once and awhile and that's really sad.

I feared this was going to happen at about the time Bang brought us a huge influx of posters, but the final nail in the coffin was the merge with the Skins.

Extreme is now a totally new species. It's kinda like when they go and change the body style of your favorite car. You know the engine is the same and many of the bells and whistles may be the same or even better, but somehow you just don't feel comfortable with it.

I also know that many will say things like, "well fine who needs you anyway or who gives a flyin crap what you think". That's ok and par for the course for this new model anyway. Atleast while cruisin in the old model when someone said something like that you knew there were joking and you felt like you were being teased by a big brother or an older sister or in Blondie's case a younger sister. We were one big Redskin loving family. That feeling is long gone and will never be brought back.

[MonkeySkin]

I think I've said it many times before... This is the freaking internet, so what do you expect...

I think for everyone, if you haven't already, change your settings in the user control panel so that you see 40 post per thread page, instead of whatever the default is...

Things won't look nearly as cluttered, and it helps a lot IMO.

[MRMADD]

A second point: Look at what a great thread full of ideas. Now we have OM and MRMADD playing kissy face for 6 posts. I know that the mods don't care about that stuff, but since we are all complaining about stuff....

P.S. Get a room you two.

See, this is the problem with the "new" ExtremeSkins: rampant sexual harassment. I'm confident enough not to worry about these kinds of things, but I think you've hurt OM's feelings. He's sensitive.

[TK]

I think for everyone, if you haven't already, change your settings in the user control panel so that you see 40 post per thread page, instead of whatever the default is...

Things won't look nearly as cluttered, and it helps a lot IMO.

Word.

And doing so also prevents having the screen stretch 20 miles to the right during game threads.

[bbuzz1962]

We will be eliminating 50% of new threads as soon as Arrington is out of their blood. I agree with the rant somewhat, but you must understand this team has passionate fans, and want to discuss their ideas. I can understand the members who post news articles as long as they aren't repeated as well. To be concerned about avatars is really a non issue. I think the mods do their jobs well considering the amount of members. One issue that must be controlled are those members who disagree with a post, and choose to slam the author instead of the comment. To insult someone because you disagree is juvenile, and should be controlled with ban penalties.

[The 12th Commandment]

And on a separate note... I'm a HUGE fan of the Redskins but I've only been on this board a few months. Frankly, the tension on here is nasty between newbies and vets. It makes me feel lumped in with the newbies as someone who is not only unwanted but also never going to be respected or listened to, for whatever reason the vets may have. Outside of the internet world, I only have a few friends who are DIEHARD into the Skins who understand and give a damn about what happens off the field. This reason alone is why I joined here--to be surrounded by people who care about the team 365 days a year instead of only on the winning seasons. Unfortunately, I find that this board is really no different than the real world where a few people know WAY TOO MUCH and a lot of people have nothing to say or offer to a conversation. Because of this, the board is infested with comments from people who know way too little and have next to nothing to offer. On the one hand, these people are welcome, but it makes it difficult to carry a conversation when 50 people say the same thing or start quoting newspapers and television shows. It's almost like watching people jockey for position on some imagined class system in here. It's rediculous. So with that said, I agree with the vets. BUT... there are people who have joined recently that have just as much to offer as any vet. If there is to be a class system designed and implemented, this may end up only turning people away that would be worth listening to AS WELL AS people who are not worth listening to. I don't think a class system is that great of an idea. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. HTTR!

I coudn't have said it any better myself. I don't post much on the stadium for either of two reasons that are kind of related.

1. There are a lot of people on here who are WAY more knowledgable about football in general and the skins in particular.

2. I have seen too much of the attack mode for somebody giving their opinion on a matter.

I don't know about everyone else, but I form my opinions by watching games, reading opinions and in general osmosis. What I mean is I don't write every little kernel of information down that goes into the formation of my opinion. Since my memory isn't photographic I would have a hard time putting into words every item that went into that opinion in response to a "LINK"??? or someother smart alecky question from a poster that doesn't agree with me. That doesn't make my opinion any less valid. Books where invented so we don't have to keep all the minutia in ram. And while the books I've read have helped me formulate well thought out and reaearched opinions, I couldn't quote most of them on demand.

Is the stadium just for those with hard facts to back them up? For the most part those facts are mearly statistics which can be manipulated to the point where they aren't fact anyway. I assume some will read this and thank whomever that I don't post more, but there you have it. :2cents: :2cents:

[LD0506]

Well, it's been fun reading through this entire thread and I do see some outstanding posts and very good points made. For all the b****in', I have to admit that most of the exchange here is worthwhile and the different camps make valid points.

My observations?

A: The "newbies" get way too much blame

B: A lot of people that should know better, don't, so there isn't much of an alternative to the mods intervention

C: The mods have been doing a ridiculous job in keeping the site going

D: An awful lot of people have no concept of just how much constant attention it takes to do this

E: (Maybe my favorite) Someone actually had to make up the disparaging term "toadies" for those that try to offer advice that is best if at least heard even if not followed

F: If it comes to it I for one am more than willing to give Art, et al., the benefit of the doubt in what is the best way to address the situation

G: I haven't noticed anyone mention being pressganged into ES. Some of those that complain in extremis honestly should consider spending their oh-so-valuable time elsewhere

Like a lot of you, my time to be online is limited, I'm busy- you're busy- everybody's busy, and I have to be selective about where I spend that time and I am. I come here. I have been a raving Skins fan for a long time- during the season, after the season, I don't care, I'm a Skins fan 365 days a year. This is my primary site for Skins related stuff, hard news, funny commentary, whatever. The one thing that I simply cannot wrap my brain around is why it seems so incredibly difficult for some to show up and enjoy this instead of trying to turn it into some deathmatch staredown. We're all supposed to be on the same side here aren't we?

[JimmiJo]

1. For news articles there should only be designated "reporters" to post news articles.

Good idea, and there are, and they are called Newshounds.

Once upon a time there was one preiminent newshound and he is a legend still. His name is Bubba9497. Then a funny thing happened, he became a mod here.

The job was handed over to none other than yours truly and one other who dropped out after a while. But another emerged - Haphazard they call him. Together we patrol the Internet in search of Redskins stories.

Oh every now and again, during trying times such as these (and in the middle of the night when sane men are asleep) Bubba steps in and again graces us with stories from near and far.

During the season our signatures identify as ES Newshounds.

But before I leave misinformation of any kind, there are a few others who pitch in and do this. There is guidance one must follow to do this and you will find it with the rest of the forum rules.

[akorn22]

Hmm interesting. I;ve only been here for a short time and the recurring theme that I realized on this site is that the ES "vets" think they are the best fans the team has to offer. They think they are the most knowledgable fans just because they've been on the site longer. I have seen one too many posts that say something along the lines of: "use the search function before you post" If the "vets" cared about the forum rules as much as they claim they do then they should follow rule #3 and let the mods use their judgement to close a thread. The vets need to calm down. If you don;t like the direction the site is going, the leave the site and go complain elsewhere. I personally think this is a pretty cool site where i can just talk with fellow redskins fans. I live in philly suburbs so i don;t get to talk with fellow fans at home. I have been yelled at by "vets" for no reason, and i see the ES vets trying to act superior over the newer members. I think that notion of superiority is more annoying then the new members who don;t use search,

[MonkeySkin]

Word.

And doing so also prevents having the screen stretch 20 miles to the right during game threads.

True, true... Honestly, I don't know how anybody could even stand looking the site without that option set. At least since around the merger I guess... I know that's around the time I changed it.

And about the Toadies :laugh: I kinda know where dude is coming from with them... Because a couple of people who do that, are people that I'm not surprised they do.. In other words, they probably get more enjoyment doing it just from being that way, than because they're helping out or something.... But like I said, that's just a couple and I'm not surprised...but in the overall picture, it's needed I guess cause people have been going dam crazy lately with trade BaVar for this and that and whatever else.

But it's the internet, what can you do.

[Tarhog]

Hmm interesting. I;ve only been here for a short time and the recurring theme that I realized on this site is that the ES "vets" think they are the best fans the team has to offer. They think they are the most knowledgable fans just because they've been on the site longer. I have seen one too many posts that say something along the lines of: "use the search function before you post" If the "vets" cared about the forum rules as much as they claim they do then they should follow rule #3 and let the mods use their judgement to close a thread. The vets need to calm down. If you don;t like the direction the site is going, the leave the site and go complain elsewhere. I personally think this is a pretty cool site where i can just talk with fellow redskins fans. I live in philly suburbs so i don;t get to talk with fellow fans at home. I have been yelled at by "vets" for no reason, and i see the ES vets trying to act superior over the newer members. I think that notion of superiority is more annoying then the new members who don;t use search,

I don't think thats entirely fair. I think you're mistaking a 'sense of ownership' folks who've been here a long time feel for arrogance. The sites experienced enormous growth, and has changed quite a bit in a short period of time. For those that fell in love with the place from early on, its an adjustment period. I think what you're hearing is a desire to go back to the 'way it used to be' (which may not even be possible), not anyone looking down their nose at new members. Iheartskins has only been around here for a year or so. We liked him so much, we made him a staff member. Jumbo is a newer member - I think he's an outstanding poster. I speak for the staff when I say that we do not judge folks by their join date, we judge them by the quality of their posts. I think most of our members are the same way.

Its a generalization, but probably true nevertheless that newer members 'tend' to be the ones most likely not to know whats kosher here and whats not. Thats not surprising, and they probably do get jumped more harshly than necessary. I think we would all benefit from being nicer even when someone does something stupid.

And ultimately, I would agree with your primary point - if folks (new or veteran) don't like it around here, there are other boards to hang out on.

[JimmiJo]

True, true... Honestly, I don't know how anybody could even stand looking the site without that option set. At least since around the merger I guess... I know that's around the time I changed it.

And about the Toadies :laugh: I kinda know where dude is coming from with them... Because a couple of people who do that, are people that I'm not surprised they do.. In other words, they probably get more enjoyment doing it just from being that way, than because they're helping out or something.... But like I said, that's just a couple and I'm not surprised...but in the overall picture, it's needed I guess cause people have been going dam crazy lately with trade BaVar for this and that and whatever else.

But it's the internet, what can you do.

Yea, but this was nothing compared to Ramsey/Brunell last September.

[MonkeySkin]

Yea, but this was nothing compared to Ramsey/Brunell last September.

I don't know... People talking about the same thing, over, and over, and over...is differrent than wack rediculous threads being started about trade so and so, for so and so... The people that call them Madden video game trades are right, that's the perfect discription.

At least the Ramsey/Boonell stuff was valid, and nobody knew what was going to happen with that. It was just all kinds of stuff about the same thing.

But now there's all kinds of stuff that makes no dam sense at all.

[JimmiJo]

At least the Ramsey/Boonell stuff was valid

Well, I think I know where you stand... :laugh:

Maybe, but the passion level was insane during that time and it seemed it was fan against fan, brother against brother, and all over a couple of guys that can throw a ball.

[Skeletor The Invincible]

Ryman, It's a sad state of affairs. I have been so fed up with it for so long I just stopped posting. I also severely curtailed my stopping by in the past year or so.

When I do stop by I will read some of my old and new favorite posters but thats about it. This place has lost that magic that was once extremeskins. There is only a brief twinkle of that old extreme magic every once and awhile and that's really sad.

I feared this was going to happen at about the time Bang brought us a huge influx of posters, but the final nail in the coffin was the merge with the Skins.

Extreme is now a totally new species. It's kinda like when they go and change the body style of your favorite car. You know the engine is the same and many of the bells and whistles may be the same or even better, but somehow you just don't feel comfortable with it.

I also know that many will say things like, "well fine who needs you anyway or who gives a flyin crap what you think". That's ok and par for the course for this new model anyway. Atleast while cruisin in the old model when someone said something like that you knew there were joking and you felt like you were being teased by a big brother or an older sister or in Blondie's case a younger sister. We were one big Redskin loving family. That feeling is long gone and will never be brought back.

Unfortunately the same is for me.

I like small discussions, not 5-10 pages of - excuse the french - crap. Someone noted awhile ago that I only post early in threads, not late. That's because 1: I'm lazy, 2: I don't have time.

I didn't wade through this entire thread. I looked at the first page and last page, and it was all the same. I have time to read a page worth of discussion. Not 10 pages. Sorry.

This board was good when it was small. It was good when there were a few people who could start a thread and discuss a subject at length and not lose the point of the thread in the first place.

You want to know why people want the old ways? Because we could get a sense of who everyone was. We could develop friendships (or as best you can over the internet). We could have a conversation through threads. We could develop a community.

We get almost none of that now.

But, oh well. This has probably already been said before, but I was just too lazy to read 6 pages worth of ... well, you know.

Why don't we close this thread now? That's about how it goes around here.

[Tarhog]

Wow Tommy and Skel...thats pretty scathing criticism. I respect both you guys though, and if thats the way you feel, thats the way you feel. Personally, I think all the hand-wringing of late is waaay overstated. There is still an incredible wealth of information to be found here, and some great posters to interact with.

We are working as we speak on some changes that should help reduce some of the chatter and encourage folks to start meaningful threads more consistently. This off-season is really the first extended period where we had time to address some of the issues. Bottom line though - when any group or organization experiences rapid change, a lot of its bound not to be well-received. At that juncture you have two stark choices though - get involved and try to be a part of making the change positive, or walking away.

I don't buy into what you've both said here, that its impossible to have a close-knit large community and quality discussions. We just aren't there yet. Can't force either of you to stick around, but I hope you will. You could be a big help to us.

[LD0506]

This board was good when it was small. It was good when there were a few people who could start a thread and discuss a subject at length and not lose the point of the thread in the first place.

You want to know why people wants the old ways? Because we could get a sense of who everyone was. We could develop friendships (or as best you can over the internet). We could have a conversation through threads. We could develop a community.

Now tell me why this has been rendered so impossible? As in many situations in life, you may have to "take the bull by the horns" and make some effort to try and know people rather than letting them come to you but I can say I have met several people here, had conversations on the side so as not to clutter the boards and learned some things and added a few to list of those I consider friends. For all the griping far too many seem willing to actually DO anything positive to change it. I don't need every person on Earth to be my friend, I'd never keep up with sending birthday cards, but those that I have met here more than balance out those that I wouldn't want to know by far.

(And as I'm writing Tarhog echoes the same sentiment and does it better)

[akorn22]

I don't think thats entirely fair. I think you're mistaking a 'sense of ownership' folks who've been here a long time feel for arrogance. The sites experienced enormous growth, and has changed quite a bit in a short period of time. For those that fell in love with the place from early on, its an adjustment period. I think what you're hearing is a desire to go back to the 'way it used to be' (which may not even be possible), not anyone looking down their nose at new members. Iheartskins has only been around here for a year or so. We liked him so much, we made him a staff member. Jumbo is a newer member - I think he's an outstanding poster. I speak for the staff when I say that we do not judge folks by their join date, we judge them by the quality of their posts. I think most of our members are the same way.

Its a generalization, but probably true nevertheless that newer members 'tend' to be the ones most likely not to know whats kosher here and whats not. Thats not surprising, and they probably do get jumped more harshly than necessary. I think we would all benefit from being nicer even when someone does something stupid.

And ultimately, I would agree with your primary point - if folks (new or veteran) don't like it around here, there are other boards to hang out on.

I understand what you are saying, but we are all fellow Redskins fans, and we all have different opinions. There are numerous ppl, here who won;t hesitate to shoot newer members down. I love this website and have no problem with any people on it. But when big news comes up, it's inevitable that plenty of people are going to post about it. You guys do a good job of closing repetative or pointless posts. You guys make threads that set the rules. And i believe that any new member would appreciate it if the "vets" just let the mods deal with things instead of complain and demean new members.

[Jumbo]

I just want to say to Tommy & Skeletor that I get where they're coming from based on similar experiences I've had in other arenas, not on the internet even.

My time is stretched tight, too, and I spend way more here than I planned, but I want to tell you guys I've made a number of new pals (and we don't always agree) and have been able to get to feel I'm knowing a bit about them even in this large community. I plan to meet several in the future.

It's far, far, from being all problems here, IMO, and maybe that needs to be said more often.

[zoony]

Well, I see everyone is making a lot of great points... I want to offer one and hopefully this doesn't get buried in this thread. I'll send my suggestion(s) via PM as well so that at least ONE mod sees it.

Since everyone hates the fact that a thread can become 9 pages deep within an hour due to the infamous "I agree" or the "you're a moron and I disagree"... what if each thread had a pre-set poll option with 3 options ; 1. I agree 2. I disagree 3. I'm riding the fence. For all those that really have nothing to say, but are compelled to feel HEARD, a quick vote would be a wonderful option. That is, if it's even possible. And I'm sure it is being that this board is database driven. I think this option alone could cut a TON of useless posts out.

I think this is a really good idea Ellis. Good post

[Utah]

It will be important to announce as soon as possible a date that the new "ideas" will be implemented. It will give people something to look foward to and will create an artificial "starting point" for the new way to conduct themselves on the board.

Just an idea.

[LD0506]

It's far, far, from being all problems here, IMO, and maybe that needs to be said more often.

:applause: That DOES need saying, thank you J! Can we start a "What's right with ES" thread? Perspective can be a wonderful thing unless you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope

[Skeletor The Invincible]

I just want to say to Tommy & Skeletor that I get where they're coming from based on similar experices I've had in other arenas, not on the intetnet even.

My time is stretched tight, too, and I spend way more here than I planned, but I want to tell you guys I've made a number of new pals (and we don't always) and have been able to get to feel I'm knowing a bit about them even in this large community. I plan to meet several in the future.

It's far, far, from being all problems here, IMO, and maybe that needs to be said more often.

The worst problem I have is that I load up "The Stadium" and see threads with 100 posts. I'm not going to sit there and read all the posts. I'm sure they're very nice people and I'm sure there are lots of good posts there. But I simply do not have time to read it all. I read threads with 10 posts.

That's easy.

But most of the time it's like this is a friggin official team message board with WAY too many people or something ... oh, wait.

I'll stick to commenting on small threads. I can still enjoy that.

[iheartskins]

Skel and Tommy, I've rarely interacted with you guys, though I definitely know who you are. Even in my very short time here, I've notice a substantial shift that, I think, started even before the merger or anything like that. It happened when Joe Gibbs came back. If you look at the join statistics, it was clear that that was the major catalyst in getting us where we are. Even after that, however, we still retained a large community sense that I certainly felt as soon as I'd arrive. I developed friends who I've hung out with off of ES and even managed to convince the Power that Be that I was worthy of being a Mod. At that time some of my favorite posters were still posting on a regular basis--people like BCS, redman (who has recently disappeared), Yusuf06, and many of the Vets who are now confined only to the Tailgate (if at all). And it worked. And then, at some point during the 2004 season, after another enormous influx of new members at the beginning of the season, many of the Vets just left and said enough with it. Now I certainly understand that reaction as the place had a dramatic shift--but it only eroded the community further.

We are now in a Catch 22 situation where if we lose more Vets (among other new posters [many of whom I value just as much as older guys who I "know" better]), then it will just make things worse and erode the community further. This erosion is what's making more Vets leave--and the situation worsens.

And here's what Tarhog was getting at before, if you Skel and Tommy return and reinstate the sense of community that's out there right now in potential, then it will bring back some of the sense of community that has, and continues, to make this place great. It will never be the same--that I certainly grant you. But that doesn't mean that we can't make a tight knit community again.

I hope you guys will stay here with us and continue to add and make this place better as we work through our growing pains.

And do either of you know what happened to IndySkinsFan?

[SEZWHO]

Boy do we miss THE GAME. I'm writing this after just reading through 2 pages, Couldn't take any more. Every one of you folks, from the heavy hitters down to the nubie, are in a state of confusion. What is needed is action, thats the cure, not orginization. We have lost our focus. NO FOOTBALL. Get us back on track with FA, TH DRAFT, camp, preseaon games and ALL will well.