Xameil Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 1 being, 3 distinct manifestations or persons. YHWH (Father), Yahshua(Jesus-Son), Holy Spirit. Jesus being fully man and fully God is a mystery beyond feeble human comprehension. I don't pretend to understand it, I just take it on Faith. If I don't believe Christ is God fully, then my faith is worthless, my salt has lost it saltiness and is good for nothing but to be trampled underfoot. And there is more than one source, He said His works testify, of which there were many. Hope it makes sense! I agree God is a mystery beyond human understanding. I totally agree with you, so why is it the religious zealots think they understand it? I still don't fully buy into your thoughts as Jesus is God. Yes, God is Jesus, but it's not vice versa. That's why Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. Two separate entities. Kind of like King and Prince. God can speak through Jesus, but Jesus can not speak through God. It's not a two-way street. Jesus is a door to God. Can you at least see where I'm coming from with this? We as people have no idea what is the actual truth, No one has any idea what Jesus actually said, or for that matter did. I'm not going to get on my soap-box and flat out say you are wrong. My biggest problem is when people get on theirs and say that their OPINION is the absolute truth. That's where all my debating is coming from. You can stand there and say it is my opinion that Jesus is God, and I'll sit here and nod, and say well my opinion is he is a separate being. But for someone to stand there and say it is FACT, when you have no solid proof the actual person said it, I have a problem with that. You have your faith in it which is great. Everyone needs to believe in something, even if your aetheist, you still believe in something. You believe there is nothing out there. But people who sit there and try and be self-righteous and say their belief is the only true belief...open a book, research and learn something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Or more to the point - prove that someone that lived over 2000 years ago that was not a member of royalty or similar high status existed. Exactamundo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'm hoping for a "Miracle on 34th Street" sort of ending. That would be pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Or more to the point - prove that someone that lived over 2000 years ago that was not a member of royalty or similar high status existed. I can kindof understand someone who says Jesus is not God... but my God... How much writings does there have to be about the "Fact" a man named Jesus actually walked this earth 2000 years ago.... Take the bible out of the equation... there are tons of historical facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'm an Episcopal who as a scientist was curious, so I took it upon myslef to read, and watch educational/informational shows on this. QUOTE]1. so are you a christian or you just go to an episcopal church? 2. do you believe everything you read against christianity, or that you watch on informational shows? 3. If you answered yes I am a christian, Do you hold what you watch higher than the bible? Yes I am a Christian who goes to church. But I face the fact that the Bible was stories handed down from generation to generation. Stories get exagerrated. So, if you really want to know my belief, I do believe in the Holy Trinty, but I also don't think the Bible is the actual word. As I stated before, arguably the closest to the word of Jesus was the Gospel of St. Thomas, and it was deemed heresy by the Catholic Church. So go ahead you have your beliefs, and I'll have mine. But neither yours or mine are infallible. You base yours on stories that have been proven to be mis-interpreted, and opinions handed down to you from a pulpit, and I'll base my beliefs on what I was told from a pulpit mixed in with my own research from supposed experts from the region, various religions, and historians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'm hoping for a "Miracle on 34th Street" sort of ending. That would be pretty cool. You want a swing in your back yard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I can kindof understand someone who says Jesus is not God... but my God... How much writings does there have to be about the "Fact" a man named Jesus actually walked this earth 2000 years ago.... Take the bible out of the equation... there are tons of historical facts. There's tons of books that talk about Apollo and Zeus and Prometheus etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I agree God is a mystery beyond human understanding. I totally agree with you, so why is it the religious zealots think they understand it?I still don't fully buy into your thoughts as Jesus is God. Yes, God is Jesus, but it's not vice versa. That's why Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. Two separate entities. Kind of like King and Prince. God can speak through Jesus, but Jesus can not speak through God. It's not a two-way street. Jesus is a door to God. Can you at least see where I'm coming from with this? We as people have no idea what is the actual truth, No one has any idea what Jesus actually said, or for that matter did. I think you're actually on the right track, Xameil. Jesus is part of the 3 in 1. Therefore he is God (the closest way I think you could adequately explain it, is He is "part" of God). And therefore, Jesus cannot speak for the Father. Or the Holy Spirit. Or at least didn't seem to in the Gospel accounts. For instance, the Father commends Jesus from heaven in Matthew 3:16-17: " 16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." and Jesus claims there are somethings He did not know, but the Father did like in Matthew 24:36: "36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father." (in reference to the end of time) I know there are more examples, but the bottomline -- I THINK you all might just be talking past each other. Which I'm sure the doctrine of the Trinity has NEVER drawn dissent in the early church.... ---------------- Now to the last bit of your statement, Xameil -- where you stated that "No one has any idea what Jesus actually said, or for that matter did." If you don't believe in the historocity of the Gospels, you are exactly right. However, if you don't believe that Gospels are accurate, why would you believe in Jesus at all? Or any of the good things He did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Do you mean like the a liberal hate against conservatives, and vise versa? This is a major bigoted statement by you.. You are saying what you believe is above what I believe, and therefore... people that have my belief have no place in politics... how communist is that?.... sound the hater siren. First, I don't "put myself above your beliefs", you are entitled to them, but they do not belong in politics, plain and simple. The reason is because you do not view other people as equal to yourself. That is so far COMPLETELY anti-constitutional it is astounding. I am calling you and your like out for not having a tolerant viewpoint, and for looking down at others, this type of mentality does not belong in politics. . . PERIOD!!!! You have "religion" wether you know it or not... its called your belief & value system. And you have elevated your "religious system" above all others... and you want that "religious" system in polotics and none other... are you wearing a arm band yet? No, I keep my religion to myself, and I do not put my religion before other people. I treat everyone equally, and I do not look down on someone for having a religion. I look at you the same way I look at Muslims, or Buddhists or the Flying Spaghetti Cult, I treat you ALL the same. You on the other hand do not. You put people who do not think like you BELOW you as a person. You yourself said that Muslims worship a false god, well that is calling them stupid right? You are saying that their religion guarentees them nothing in terms of an afterlife, because only YOUR god is the TRUE god. . . begotten not maid right? What I am doing is calling your opinion bigoted. To furhter the point, I think your religion should stay the hell out of politics and our constitution. You can believe it as much as you want, that is your perrogative, but you have absolutely no right to place your religion before our country, and that is what is going on right now. If you don't think so, why don't you watch Pat Robertson and the 700 Club. Hell, just yesterday he said God was punishing Sharone because he gave land to infidels. He also stated that the town in Pennsylvania who voted for evolution would have to incur the wrath of god. That is a crock, it is a joke, and your religion should stay the hell out of politics plain and simple. That is what separates you from me. I believe you can believe what you believe, and live how you want(within the law)... and have your hand in whatever politics you want... just like any people group should have. I thank God that "Christians will never" dominate American politics... just like I think God.. liberals or any other people group. Both would be disasterous Where did I say that you can not "believe what you want to believe?" You have every right to do so, you also have every right to run for office, it is a free country, and I would never take away that right. What I am saying is that you should never be elected, because you would intermingle your religion WITH politics, it is part of you life, am I right? How could you NOT intermingle politics and religion? How could you NOT "misunderestimate" the threat of Muslim people? Or do you even care about it because you may think the "Rapture" is your responsibility to create. What if you think Jesus Christ will come at the breaking of the 7th seal, and you want to do everything in your power to make sure the second messiah comes again? Do I think this person belongs in politics? Hell no, but I would never take away his right to run. All I will do is expose his radical thoughts for all to see. But I think... that with what you have said in your first sentence... people with type of elitist thinking should be put on a watch list... because it boarders on Hitlerism. I'm the elitist??? Funny how you coin ME as an elitist huh. I mean where do I put ANY religion, class or race before me? I don't. In fact, it is YOU who is the elitist, it was YOU who stated that Muslims believe in a false god, and it was YOU who puts your beliefs above Muslims. Unfortunately, you won't even look at what I am saying, and comprehend why you are being an elitist. As for me, I don't put myself above anyone, I treat everyone the same, as I think Muslims who believe in the 72 virgins should not be in politics as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Now to the last bit of your statement, Xameil -- where you stated that "No one has any idea what Jesus actually said, or for that matter did." If you don't believe in the historocity of the Gospels, you are exactly right. However, if you don't believe that Gospels are accurate, why would you believe in Jesus at all? Or any of the good things He did? Because it has been proven, or at least supported that the Gospels have been mis-translated. So, I do believe in Jesus, and what he stood for, but I don't think that the Gospels are 100% accurate, and therefore can not be read as black and white. I feel they are teachings to help guide us through life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Yes I am a Christian who goes to church. But I face the fact that the Bible was stories handed down from generation to generation. Stories get exagerrated. So, if you really want to know my belief, I do believe in the Holy Trinty, but I also don't think the Bible is the actual word. As I stated before, arguably the closest to the word of Jesus was the Gospel of St. Thomas, and it was deemed heresy by the Catholic Church. So go ahead you have your beliefs, and I'll have mine. But neither yours or mine are infallible. You base yours on stories that have been proven to be mis-interpreted, and opinions handed down to you from a pulpit, and I'll base my beliefs on what I was told from a pulpit mixed in with my own research from supposed experts from the region, various religions, and historians. oh ok... let me get this straight. You are the only one on earth that has done any type of research, and oh btw your research is infallable. The book of "thomas" is perfect, and you are next in line to be god? ok I think I've got it now. We do not serve the same God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 No, but remember how they proved Santa real in court. I don't know what the parallel would be... maybe get all the water fountains to project wine for a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 oh ok... let me get this straight. You are the only one on earth that has done any type of research, and oh btw your research is infallable. The book of "thomas" is perfect, and you are next in line to be god? ok I think I've got it now. We do not serve the same God. You are so ignorant it makes me laugh. You read one thing and make it fit your argument. I never said the Gospel according to St. Thomas was perfect. I just said that it was supposedly the closest to the word of Jesus (since he and Thomas were so close). And it is no secret that the Vatican deemed it heresy. The Gospel was "bad for business". I'll keep it simple for you. It stated that you didn't need to goto a church to worship God. He exists everywhere. And with your attitude, I wouldn't want to serve your God, obviously he preaches stupidity. Oh yeah, and I never said I was the only one who did any research. I just said you haven't done much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 First, I don't "put myself above your beliefs", you are entitled to them, but they do not belong in politics, plain and simple. The reason is because you do not view other people as equal to yourself. That is so far COMPLETELY anti-constitutional it is astounding. I am calling you and your like out for not having a tolerant viewpoint, and for looking down at others, this type of mentality does not belong in politics. . . PERIOD!!!!No, I keep my religion to myself, and I do not put my religion before other people. I treat everyone equally, and I do not look down on someone for having a religion. I look at you the same way I look at Muslims, or Buddhists or the Flying Spaghetti Cult, I treat you ALL the same. You on the other hand do not. You put people who do not think like you BELOW you as a person. You yourself said that Muslims worship a false god, well that is calling them stupid right? You are saying that their religion guarentees them nothing in terms of an afterlife, because only YOUR god is the TRUE god. . . begotten not maid right? What I am doing is calling your opinion bigoted. To furhter the point, I think your religion should stay the hell out of politics and our constitution. You can believe it as much as you want, that is your perrogative, but you have absolutely no right to place your religion before our country, and that is what is going on right now. If you don't think so, why don't you watch Pat Robertson and the 700 Club. Hell, just yesterday he said God was punishing Sharone because he gave land to infidels. He also stated that the town in Pennsylvania who voted for evolution would have to incur the wrath of god. That is a crock, it is a joke, and your religion should stay the hell out of politics plain and simple. Where did I say that you can not "believe what you want to believe?" You have every right to do so, you also have every right to run for office, it is a free country, and I would never take away that right. What I am saying is that you should never be elected, because you would intermingle your religion WITH politics, it is part of you life, am I right? How could you NOT intermingle politics and religion? How could you NOT "misunderestimate" the threat of Muslim people? Or do you even care about it because you may think the "Rapture" is your responsibility to create. What if you think Jesus Christ will come at the breaking of the 7th seal, and you want to do everything in your power to make sure the second messiah comes again? Do I think this person belongs in politics? Hell no, but I would never take away his right to run. All I will do is expose his radical thoughts for all to see. I'm the elitist??? Funny how you coin ME as an elitist huh. I mean where do I put ANY religion, class or race before me? I don't. In fact, it is YOU who is the elitist, it was YOU who stated that Muslims believe in a false god, and it was YOU who puts your beliefs above Muslims. Unfortunately, you won't even look at what I am saying, and comprehend why you are being an elitist. As for me, I don't put myself above anyone, I treat everyone the same, as I think Muslims who believe in the 72 virgins should not be in politics as well. Yet you deny the fact that your belief system about politics is your "religion". Yet its ok for you to believe the way you do... and allow it to effect your "political decisions. Yet its ok for you to say a person of "faith" should never be elected. That is fascism. If I was elected, and everyone knew my beliefs... why else would I get elected in the first place unless the majority felt that way? Why do people get elected... because people agree with what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 You are so ignorant it makes me laugh. You read one thing and make it fit your argument. I never said the Gospel according to St. Thomas was perfect. I just said that it was supposedly the closest to the word of Jesus (since he and Thomas were so close). And it is no secret that the Vatican deemed it heresy. The Gospel was "bad for business". I'll keep it simple for you. It stated that you didn't need to goto a church to worship God. He exists everywhere. And with your attitude, I wouldn't want to serve your God, obviously he preaches stupidity. Oh yeah, and I never said I was the only one who did any research. I just said you haven't done much. :doh: First thomas was not the closest to Jesus... actually read the bible, and find out... John was. and do you even read what you write? YOU JUST SAID YOU DIDN'T DO ANY OF THE RESEARCH... YET your previous post says this Originally Posted by Xameil "and I'll base my beliefs on what I was told from a pulpit mixed in with my own research from supposed experts from the region, various religions, and historians." I see why you are confused... i can not respond to you again... I think i'm actually getting dumber by the second every time you post some hairball thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick27 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 well why would you say that your a christian But dont believe the word of God to be the Bible ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 6, 2006 Author Share Posted January 6, 2006 No, I keep my religion to myself, and I do not put my religion before other people. I treat everyone equally, and I do not look down on someone for having a religion. WRONG! you have said many times in signature and word that people that believe in God are intellectually dishonest at best and mental in some cases. You don't believe in God just as I am currently at... Lets not throw false statements up there unless you not only went from the Patriots back to the skins and from no God to God at the same time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpillian Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Because it has been proven, or at least supported that the Gospels have been mis-translated. So, I do believe in Jesus, and what he stood for, but I don't think that the Gospels are 100% accurate, and therefore can not be read as black and white. I feel they are teachings to help guide us through life. Of course, I'm sure I could ask you for a proof of a mis-translated passage from the Gospel -- and you could find an opinion somewhere to that effect -- and I could in turn rebut that opinion with an additional opinion -- ad nauseum. I vote to skip all the googling on this particular issue. In the end, you've either got to either believe that the Gospels have been passed down as accurate accounts of the life of Christ -- or have been somehow compromised over time. I can certainly understand the belief that they have been compromised. It's hard to believe (though I do) that the account of Christ's life, as presented by four eye witnesses, have been passed along for two millenia without any significant corruption. But if you feel that way, why would you give credance to any of it? Regardless, I appreciate your candor on this topic, Xameil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Prophet, maybe this is a problem of definition. How about: You and other Christians are worshiping the one and only God. Muslims may be attempting to worship the same one God, but they are getting it all wrong, because they were mislead by Muhammed. Muslims certainly believe they are worshipping the same God that spoke to Abraham. It is the most fundamental tenant of their religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stick27 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 well all I can see from that is 3 I's,it isn't about us But what Christ Did on the Cross for all of us ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Of course, I'm sure I could ask you for a proof of a mis-translated passage from the Gospel -- and you could find an opinion somewhere to that effect -- and I could in turn rebut that opinion with an additional opinion -- ad nauseum. I vote to skip all the googling on this particular issue. In the end, you've either got to either believe that the Gospels have been passed down as accurate accounts of the life of Christ -- or have been somehow compromised over time. I can certainly understand the belief that they have been compromised. It's hard to believe (though I do) that the account of Christ's life, as presented by four eye witnesses, have been passed along for two millenia without any significant corruption. But if you feel that way, why would you give credance to any of it? Regardless, I appreciate your candor on this topic, Xameil. Agreed. I always enjoy an educated discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Prophet, maybe this is a problem of definition.How about: You and other Christians are worshiping the one and only God. Muslims may be attempting to worship the same one God, but they are getting it all wrong, because they were mislead by Muhammed. Muslims certainly believe they are worshipping the same God that spoke to Abraham. It is the most fundamental tenant of their religion. plz see previous posts... on the orgin of it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Whoa, back the truck way up, Chom. I never once stated that was how I think, but I put the reasoning down as to why it is done. Just as your side believes you are right, you always have to use modifiers, or sensationalistic adjectives to describe your opponents. Librals do not do that, for the most part, because they believe their argument will stand on the merits on the argument itself. The post was not meant to mean that my position is the only true and just position, but to give a discription as to not only why they fail to use modifiers when describing the right, but also the thought process behind it. Apparently I misunderstood your post, but let's look at it again: For the same reason you see libral/socialist or leftist/Marxist. When you have no point, you need to resort to extreme innuendos and emotional writing to get people to agree with you.It is the same reason why liberals DON'T write righty/fascist with every post. They believe their reasoning and judgement doesn't need to resort to sensationalistic modifiers, because they believe their position is the only true and just one. In particular, look at the bolded section. Who can "they" possibly be referring to other than liberals? It sure looks to me like liberals "believe their position is the only true and just one." (Your words, not mine.) If that isn't what you meant, I'm willing to leave it at that. Let's continue... That is because in your circles, it is not. God is not up for debat in your eyes either, but there are others who look at the world differently. It doesn;t make either side right, but it also does not mean that he definately existed by any stretch of the imagination. In my circles? What circles are those, exactly? You've made the wild assumption that not only do I hold monotheistic beliefs, but they're fairly closed-minded Christian ones as well. False on both accounts. I suppose you could categorize me as "agnostic," but I don't really like the term. Either way, there wasn't supposed to be any religious undertone to my post at all, which is why I stressed historical figure. As far as I knew it was pretty widely accepted by the archaeological and historical communities that a person named Jesus lived in the Middle East in the first century A.D. That was all I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Whoa, back the truck way up, Chom.Apparently I misunderstood your post, but let's look at it again: In particular, look at the bolded section. Who can "they" possibly be referring to other than liberals? It sure looks to me like liberals "believe their position is the only true and just one." (Your words, not mine.) If that isn't what you meant, I'm willing to leave it at that. Let's continue... In my circles? What circles are those, exactly? You've made the wild assumption that not only do I hold monotheistic beliefs, but they're fairly closed-minded Christian ones as well. False on both accounts. I suppose you could categorize me as "agnostic," but I don't really like the term. Either way, there wasn't supposed to be any religious undertone to my post at all, which is why I stressed historical figure. As far as I knew it was pretty widely accepted by the archaeological and historical communities that a person named Jesus lived in the Middle East in the first century A.D. That was all I was saying. You are an agnostic that doesn't have logical proof for God but hopes/has faith that there is some other force out there that gives purpose to existance. Am I correct or way off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 You are an agnostic that doesn't have logical proof for God but hopes/has faith that there is some other force out there that gives purpose to existance. Am I correct or way off? I'd say you're closer to way off than you are to correct. I don't think there has to be a supernatural presence for existence to have meaning or purpose necessarily. I don't believe the human race is the focus of the universe, and I doubt any sentient race is. (For that matter, it seems highly probable that we're not the only intelligent life in the universe, but that's a discussion for a whole different thread.) I also think that whether you want to explain it with science or religion, the genesis of the universe is baffling, to put it mildly. To put things succinctly, I'm willing to recognize that there's more I don't know than I do know. For the time being, I'm comfortable with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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