G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 The proof is in the pudding as they say. The original Apostles of Christ wrote three of the GospelsMatthew, Mark (dictated by Peter), and John. Luke used accounts from them as well. Later Christian writers, such as Iranaeus and Justin Martyr, drew most of their knowledge from disciples of the Apostles such as Polycarp firsthand. My question to everyone who doubts the truth of the Gospels is this: If the life, death, and Raising of Christ was a hoax or sham, such as the body being stolen instead of the Resurrection, why would the Apostles die excruciating deaths for their belief? Wouldn't they just run and it would die out? All but one Apostle was violently killed, and that was John who was tossed into boiling oil, but survived unscathed and subsequently was exiled to Patmos where the Revelation was given to him. The plaintiff should read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. I'll admit I am ignorant on actual history of Christianity but how can you prove that all of the Apostles died violent horrible deaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 However, isn't it the case that St. Peter's body is buried under the Vatican, or there are other relics all over like the Shroud of Turin, shouldnt these relics prove that Christ has existed? I saw some special about the Shroud of Turin and they basically showed how such shrouds were common "touristish" item that were sold back then. Also something about Leonardo Da Vinci maybe made it. But anyway they used computers and put paint on peoples faces and they proved that it was painted on somehow. Oh and I think they did testing on the cloth and showed that it wasn't 2000 years old but only like 500 years old. I saw this awhile ago so my numbers and such may be off but that was the gest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 to whomever prove He doesn't case closed next question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 True or False Jesus was all about help the poor and needy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 This thread seems like it may become very interesting, I'm liking it already. One thing Code though is that the star wars books are known works of fiction, while the works of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle are documented by I believe Aristotle himself and by other people of the time. What if Star Wars was written 2000 years ago, how would you know it was a work of fiction? However, isn't it the case that St. Peter's body is buried under the Vatican, or there are other relics all over like the Shroud of Turin, shouldnt these relics prove that Christ has existed The Shroud of Turin was made in medival times. There have been a few religious sites to try and claim that the carbon-14 dating is innacurate because of a fire, but it has been done multiple times and the RCC has withdrawn their initial position I believe. As for St. Peter, he is supposedly buried beneath the Vatican, but how could anyone prove that it IS St. Peter? BTW, the Shroud of Turin is thought in some circles to be the first photograph ever made. It is a negative image of a loin cloth, such as a photograph. Dan Brown claimes it was DaVinci, which I don't know, but I definately think it is a photograph. I remember watching a christian video of the Shroud where they proclaimed the reasons the carbon dating didn't exist, but that it was the image of Jesus. It was also a man wrapped in cloth. This could only be done with a dead person, and chemicals on his body and the cloth. Something alchemists of the day has access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I saw some special about the Shroud of Turin and they basically showed how such shrouds were common "touristish" item that were sold back then. Also something about Leonardo Da Vinci maybe made it. But anyway they used computers and put paint on peoples faces and they proved that it was painted on somehow.Oh and I think they did testing on the cloth and showed that it wasn't 2000 years old but only like 500 years old. I saw this awhile ago so my numbers and such may be off but that was the gest of it. I think I saw the same documentary. In the one you saw, did they do a 3-D representation of the image on the Shroud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Why is this guy labeled a "militant" atheist, rather then just an atheist? Is he taking up arms and doing drive-bys at churches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 to whomever prove He doesn'tcase closed next question prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. . . case re-opened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Why is this guy labeled a "militant" atheist, rather then just an atheist? Is he taking up arms and doing drive-bys at churches? For the same reason you see libral/socialist or leftist/Marxist. When you have no point, you need to resort to extreme innuendos and emotional writing to get people to agree with you. It is the same reason why liberals DON'T write righty/fascist with every post. They believe their reasoning and judgement doesn't need to resort to sensationalistic modifiers, because they believe their position is the only true and just one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 For the same reason you see libral/socialist or leftist/Marxist. When you have no point, you need to resort to extreme innuendos and emotional writing to get people to agree with you.It is the same reason why liberals DON'T write righty/fascist with every post. They believe their reasoning and judgement doesn't need to resort to sensationalistic modifiers, because they believe their position is the only true and just one. Good Points Chom - Cheers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley's "rootin" Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 As far as proving weather Christ existed or not will never be publicly proven . There would be no reason for faith, which I think is one of the things you may have to have to enter in to Heaven ? There are an awful lot of people in the free world that are convinced Christ did exist with no physical evidence, very few convinced with no physical evidence Christ never existed, that are willing to try to convince others he never did exist. Thank God !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'm not saying that, But I can guarandamntee you that many "christians" feel that way.Pat Robertson has said on his website and in public that methodists, presbetarians (sp?) and episcopalians (sp?) are all going to hell, they don't meet the "criteria" of being a christian. I grew up in a baptist church and I know that that's how many of the people there felt. . Not trying to start a war, but in ALL of my personal experiences with Baptists... (and I assure any of you in here that there are more Baptists in Tennessee than anywhere else in the country)... that seems to be their MO. :whoknows: I never heard anything but good things about other flavors of Christians growing up... same goes for my wife who is a Methodist. ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTalon Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 This is the most absurd example of a court getting involved in an area where it does not belong that I have ever heard. What is the judge supposed to do if he finds for the plaintiff, cancel Christianity? Abolish the (Catholic) Church in Italy? And if he finds for the defendent, does the plaintiff have to give up being an atheist? Rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 This is the most absurd example of a court getting involved in an area where it does not belong that I have ever heard. Rediculous. Really??? Terry Schaivo anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistymjohnson Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I happen to be a member of, work for, and take Holy Communion in a Baptist Church. I also happen to be extensively involved with a distinguished Missionary Outreach Program. Though I have studied many denominations and even Catholicism... I feel led to be where I am. However, I do not support the statement regarding "most" Baptist demonizing other denominations. However, what I have seen is, "most" Baptist standing up for what they believe. They have a very cut and dry way of stating things, because they don't feel mincing words serves anyone's purpose. I can’t say that I agree with that completely… But then again, I can’t say that I agree with any one denomination 100%. What I will say about that statement is that, yes, ‘some’ Baptist leaders have taught their congregations that some other denominations will not be represented in Heaven based on whatever acts or beliefs they have. This is a VERY small number in comparison to the whole picture. And to be honest with you, to lump us all together is ignorant at best. Anytime something goes wrong (not just in religion but in society as a whole), the first thing we do is point the finger and claim “Guilty by Association” – Now, if I were to jump on the bandwagon and start throwing around opinions regarding a whole based on a minority… I would have to say that it is my opinion the author of that post is a typical uninformed and ill-mannered bighead that doesn’t think before he speaks! (But I am not one for riding in or on a wagon). I don't claim to be any one denomination or another... Though when asked where I attend services... I give an honest answer regarding my current involvement with a Baptist Church... However, when asked “who” or “what” am I… This is my answer: I am a child of God, and an Heiress to the Kingdom of Heaven! (Short, sweet, and to the point) :helmet: Misty M. Johnson :helmet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Really??? Terry Schaivo anyone? Come on, Mike. Life and death situations, however you feel or believe on the issue are the proper purview of legal review. We may even disagree that the government should 'step in' but the setting of boundaries is not an insane idea. But proving Jesus exists is ridiculous. Prove any abstract concept is 'real.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 mistymjohnson... Again, it is personal experience... what I've experienced firsthand. No more, no less, just a fact. Never said they were all that way, just all the ones I have encountered. And I stand by that statement strongly. Baptists have a severe superiority complex over other religions... ALL of the ones I have met and engaged in religious conversation. And if you note my location in my profile you will understand that I live in Baptist Country USA. That said, my intent is not to incite or to offend, just to share personal experiences. I think you offered some very good insight though as to the root of the beliefs, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTalon Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Really??? Terry Schaivo anyone?I really don't think you intended that the way it came accross. (I'm guessing you would have meant Congress or some other body, not the court.)But are you really, seriously comparing the level of absurdity between the Schiavo case and THIS? The Schiavo case was tragic. This is just absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistymjohnson Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 I am terribly sorry that you have had such experiences. How does that saying go again... "They give us a bad name?" I promise that not all of us are like that, and I meant no personal attack on you. However, I too strongly defend my beliefs and experiences. (Nothing wrong with two spirited conversationalists!) Again, I do offer an apology for you having experienced the not so warm and compassionate people that seem to plague our denomination. (I use the term plague loosely - don't read anything into it). And regarding your living in the Bible belt... *smirks* I grew up in the Bible belt until mid-teens, and then again a couple of years in my late teens. I do not pretend that what you are referring to is not there (you know what I mean)... As half (okay, more than half) of my family was rebellious hoodlums... there was a minority that we called the "Holy Rollers" (I don't call them that anymore since I wised up). But they were preachers, missionaries, and deacons - almost all Baptist. I did see part of the 'Holier than Thou' attitude, but noticed that it was mostly in the hierarchy of the churches... The congregation seemed to be on a much more stable foundation (called reality!) They were friendly, loving, kind, generous, and vibrant people. Some of my fondest moments as a child were when my parents sent me to church. It is my hope that one day you will encounter such a people as I had that will alter your image of us as a whole. :helmet: Misty M. Johnson :helmet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist. . . case re-opened well i know by my increasing belly... that i ate him case close, cemented shut, and thrown into the deepest volcano :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 It is the same reason why liberals DON'T write righty/fascist with every post. They believe their reasoning and judgement doesn't need to resort to sensationalistic modifiers, because they believe their position is the only true and just one. At the risk of getting off topic, I'll make just one comment. It's more than a little bit misguided (wrong? dangerous? any number of words fit here) to believe your position is the "only true and just one." More to the point, I wasn't aware that the existence of Jesus as historical figure was up for debate. Oh, and Thiebear (I believe you were the one who made the comment) Allah and God are one and the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 just to clarify for people These are what we call different Religions Christianity Islam Buddhist Judaism There is only one Christianity Catholic Baptist Pentecostals Methodist are all apart of Christianity Baptist, Catholics, and Methodist are not different Religions.. They are different denominations btw just like in every "Religions", Christian demoninations emphasize different points, but agree at the core of the religion. the Core: The Cross, Forgiveness, Virgin Birth, Resurrection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Pat Robertson has said on his website and in public that methodists, presbetarians (sp?) and episcopalians (sp?) are all going to hell, they don't meet the "criteria" of being a christian. QUOTE] I have to attack this... Please post a reliable link to this? from a top news agency, or his link? because this reeks of 100% horse crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 Oh, and Thiebear (I believe you were the one who made the comment) Allah and God are one and the same. 100% wrong. The Christian God is not the same as Islam god allah. first reason to debunk this: Christian God: God, The Father, God, The Son, God, The Holy Spirit. 3 yet one. Islam God. Not seen as a Father, or a son, neither does he have a son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted January 6, 2006 Share Posted January 6, 2006 100% wrong.The Christian YHWH(God) is not the same as allah. What I've always been told in religious studies classes is that Allah is simply the Arabic word for god and that as far as it's used by Muslims it's referring to the same entity as the Judeo-Christian God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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