Wise - After a Shove, a Fall From Grace (Lavar Shouting Match w/Coach after Sat game)

[altair4]

Yes. We have been better without LaVar.

We are noticeably worse with Cornelius Griffen off the feild. LaVar? Np difference at all. He has haf 2 years to 'get it'. He hasn't. Case closed.

[JimmiJo]

So what's the deal now?

You know Ghost, you raise an excellent question - What IS the deal now?

Maybe it's because as Wise describes he is no longer the toast of the owner's booth.

[BD]

Oh so you know Lavar personally?

You have to know him personally to hold the position that he's got an ego? That this ego has led him to butt heads with coaches, from Schottenheimer to Marvin Lewis to Williams and Lindsey? Don't you remember how LaVar didn't want to play from the End position, didn't want to play with his hand on the ground, but then proceeded to have his best pro season doing just that on half the snaps?

Please. Even LaVar's most loyal defenders will admit that he's got an ego, and that this has led to his getting into scraps with coaches.

[ThatGuy]

You know Ghost, you raise an excellent question - What IS the deal now?

Maybe it's because as Wise describes he is no longer the toast of the owner's booth.

I would say the deal now is that Lavar isn't the star attraction anymore. He's not getting all attention he's used to, so he's complaining.

[Ghost of]

Yeah, but they were great LB's before he coached them and after he coached them as well. I'm sure if you asked Urlacher or Seau if Lindsey is the reason they are great they would laugh. I have a few friends who are Bears fans and they couldn't stand either Lindsey or Blache.

I love the rationalizations by the Extremeskins Pravda brigade. (not you, guru.) All of a sudden the great LBs owe it all to this scrappy LB coach who's hard BUT FAIR! :laugh:

I've been saying for some time that I read up on Bears opiniions of their D before Lovie Smith and it was by and large, NOT favorable and not because of performance but because of coaching.

They actually laughed when we got Blache. I'm not trying to drag Blache into this but perhaps some here overestimate the level of esteem with which we should hold some of the staff without knowing the situation a touch more intimately.

[Ghost of]

You have to know him personally to hold the position that he's got an ego? That this ego has led him to butt heads with coaches, from Schottenheimer to Marvin Lewis to Williams and Lindsey? Don't you remember how LaVar didn't want to play from the End position, didn't want to play with his hand on the ground, but then proceeded to have his best pro season doing just that on half the snaps?

Please. Even LaVar's most loyal defenders will admit that he's got an ego, and that this has led to his getting into scraps with coaches.

Some would say his best pro season was in 2000 under Kurt S.

Don't recall the scraps with Schottenheimer but maybe I just don't remember.

[Guest GibbSkins11]

the truth is in the last years when arrington has been on the field how many overpursued plays and going away from assignments that arrington has done cost us games , thats why the coaching staff is getting tired of him , that and the fact that he has no common sense when it comes down to that 6.5 million dollar bonus he keeps talking about when he had one in the deal and it seems those injuries took just a little bit longer, he gets on my nerves , gregg williams defense is a blitzing defense "that means" if you send extra players after the quarterback , like lets say a corner , LA has to be covering a player or being in position on the field , not blitzing with the corner or guessing where the play is going and leaving his chunk of the field wide open , the real problem is it feels like to me lavar finally knows the washington redskins can win without his bs and his most loyal fans ( i was one of them ) are getting tired of his me me me attitude when he used to be all team and washington redskins , i think he is causing all of this because he is seeing players and coaches who are busting theirs butts returning this team to glory and not him and his big mouth so he wants to try to screw it up b/c if he has to be a part of a team and not the biggest piece he feels like if its not me then why should they have their fun along side me = very very selfish coming from a guy who wanted to see the redskins #1 , i just hope he realizes this or at least knows he has a change to be a bigger piece all he has to do is be on the field sunday at philly listen , play smart , and make a play:applause: :helmet: :applause:

[ThatGuy]

I love the rationalizations by the Extremeskins Pravda brigade. (not you, guru.) All of a sudden the great LBs owe it all to this scrappy LB coach who's hard BUT FAIR! :laugh:

I've been saying for some time that I read up on Bears opiniions of their D before Lovie Smith and it was by and large, NOT favorable and not because of performance but because of coaching.

They actually laughed when we got Blache. I'm not trying to drag Blache into this but perhaps some here overestimate the level of esteem with which we should hold some of the staff without knowing the situation a touch more intimately.

I don't think the issue is about the skill level of Lindsey as a linebacker coach. Even if Lindsey is the worst linebacker coach in the NFL today, he's still the coach on our team. And you don't hang up the phone on the guy, and sometimes he's going to yell at you.

I think this is a side issue to the big picture anyways.

[ImmortalDragon]

They actually laughed when we got Blache. I'm not trying to drag Blache into this but perhaps some here overestimate the level of esteem with which we should hold some of the staff without knowing the situation a touch more intimately.

:applause:

[TK]

Yeah, but they were great LB's before he coached them and after he coached them as well. I'm sure if you asked Urlacher or Seau if Lindsey is the reason they are great they would laugh.

http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=55

Lindsey served as defensive coordinator of the San Diego Chargers in 2002-03. Previously, he was a member of the Chicago Bears coaching staff supervising the linebackers from 1999-2001. During that time, he worked closely with Redskins colleague Greg Blache, helping set a number of defensive records with the Bears during the 2001 season, as well as earning the NFC Central title. While in Chicago, he was responsible for the development of then-rookie Brian Urlacher. Under Lindsey's watch, Urlacher shattered the Bears' rookie record for sacks (eight) and tackles (165) in a single season. He was named the NFL's Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2000 and earned a trip to the 2001 Pro Bowl.

[ImmortalDragon]

the truth is in the last years when arrington has been on the field how many overpursued plays and going away from assignments that arrington has done cost us games , thats why the coaching staff is getting tired of him , that and the fact that he has no common sense when it comes down to that 6.5 million dollar bonus he keeps talking about when he had one in the deal and it seems those injuries took just a little bit longer, he gets on my nerves , gregg williams defense is a blitzing defense "that means" if you send extra players after the quarterback , like lets say a corner , LA has to be covering a player or being in position on the field , not blitzing with the corner or guessing where the play is going and leaving his chunk of the field wide open , the real problem is it feels like to me lavar finally knows the washington redskins can win without his bs and his most loyal fans ( i was one of them ) are getting tired of his me me me attitude when he used to be all team and washington redskins , i think he is causing all of this because he is seeing players and coaches who are busting theirs butts returning this team to glory and not him and his big mouth so he wants to try to screw it up b/c if he has to be a part of a team and not the biggest piece he feels like if its not me then why should they have their fun along side me = very very selfish coming from a guy who wanted to see the redskins #1 , i just hope he realizes this or at least knows he has a change to be a bigger piece all he has to do is be on the field sunday at philly listen , play smart , and make a play:applause: :helmet: :applause:

Someone will get cancer from reading that.

[Ghost of]

Even if Lindsey is the worst linebacker coach in the NFL today, he's still the coach on our team. And you don't hang up the phone on the guy, and sometimes he's going to yell at you.

ThatGuy, my post was in response to someone boosting up Lindsey's credentials, nothing more.

As for being yelled at, I guess it depends what's being said.

if someone throws in a curse word and says "get your bleepin' head right!" that's one thing and at the least I'd sit and listen.

Other things may not meet with the same response.

[bulldog]

Ghost, give it a rest.

we know that Marvin Lewis, who if Dungy wasn't 13-2 in Indy, would be coach of the year found Arrington to be almost useless in a traditional linebacker role.

Williams and Blache avoided playing Arrington until it became apparent that Warrick Holdman was 30 going on 50

In his rookie season, Rhodes played Arrington in special situations and brought him along slowly because he hadn't learned the playbook and was not in position to make plays on the field on a consistent basis.

we all lived through LA's career here. and outside of the 2001 season under Marty, I can't point to a year where there hasn't been tumult with #56 at the center of it for the Redskins.

the simple fact is that Griffin, Washington and Springs are the core players on this defense. Taylor and Rogers are part of the future and en route to being top players. other guys like Marshall, Salavea and Daniels are warriors with limited talent but great heart, intelligence and drive to excel.

Arrington has still not learned there is more to playing in the NFL than having a fast 40 time and making the highlight reel hit.

What's funny is I have seen more growth out of Sean Taylor in 1.5 years than I have seen in Arrington's game in FIVE years

[ThatGuy]

Lindsey served as defensive coordinator of the San Diego Chargers in 2002-03. Previously, he was a member of the Chicago Bears coaching staff supervising the linebackers from 1999-2001. During that time, he worked closely with Redskins colleague Greg Blache, helping set a number of defensive records with the Bears during the 2001 season, as well as earning the NFC Central title. While in Chicago, he was responsible for the development of then-rookie Brian Urlacher. Under Lindsey's watch, Urlacher shattered the Bears' rookie record for sacks (eight) and tackles (165) in a single season. He was named the NFL's Defensive Rookie of the Year in 2000 and earned a trip to the 2001 Pro Bowl.

One thing to add to Lindsey's resume is that Urlacher was a safety in college, so we learned the position in his early years.

[Ghost of]

http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=55

Well, then allow me to retort.

Greg Robinson, the architect of a defense that led the Denver Broncos to back-to-back Super Bowl victories in 1997 and '98,

http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/staff/robinson.html

[TheGuru10]

the truth is in the last years when arrington has been on the field how many overpursued plays and going away from assignments that arrington has done cost us games , thats why the coaching staff is getting tired of him , that and the fact that he has no common sense when it comes down to that 6.5 million dollar bonus he keeps talking about when he had one in the deal and it seems those injuries took just a little bit longer, he gets on my nerves , gregg williams defense is a blitzing defense "that means" if you send extra players after the quarterback , like lets say a corner , LA has to be covering a player or being in position on the field , not blitzing with the corner or guessing where the play is going and leaving his chunk of the field wide open , the real problem is it feels like to me lavar finally knows the washington redskins can win without his bs and his most loyal fans ( i was one of them ) are getting tired of his me me me attitude when he used to be all team and washington redskins , i think he is causing all of this because he is seeing players and coaches who are busting theirs butts returning this team to glory and not him and his big mouth so he wants to try to screw it up b/c if he has to be a part of a team and not the biggest piece he feels like if its not me then why should they have their fun along side me = very very selfish coming from a guy who wanted to see the redskins #1 , i just hope he realizes this or at least knows he has a change to be a bigger piece all he has to do is be on the field sunday at philly listen , play smart , and make a play:applause: :helmet: :applause:

While I respect your passion, I can't agree with your analysis. LaVar played 2 games last year(really 1.5). The coaches were able to discern all of what you say based off that many games. A little over critical don't you think. And before someone says they saw it on past game tapes, that's not fair, b/c you don't know from watching a film what the call was at that time unless you made the call.

Oh, and Warrick Holdman got cut from Cleveland this offseason. Why was that, b/c he was making all kinds of plays and reading his assignments well, but they just couldn't afford that league minimum salary of his?

[visionary]

Are you kidding vis? You know the guys at the Post must've had a you-knw-what when they read the Tiems article and got the idea to run with this.

I think there might need to be some sort of ban on Lavar threads from satuday evening until after the game on sunday...LOL....

Too bad we can't get the media to shut up about him for a bit.

I am sick of hearing about him.

[bulldog]

Ghost Part II:

If the Redskins coaching staff on defense is suspect how come the free agent moves have almost all worked and the defense has been in the top 10 the past 2 years?

You can't have it both ways. You can't look at a team with a 9-6 record for the first time in 6 years and then dump all over the staff that got the team and the players to put this together.

Anyone other than a fool can see that Marcus Washington is the team's best linebacker. Play in and play out Washington is the one that other teams are afraid of because of his consistency and both physical/mental toughness.

Ditto on the DL with Griffin and in the secondary lead by Shawn Springs.

All three of these players were brought in over the past 2 years with the input of this staff.

We also drafted Sean Taylor instead of Kellen Winslow based on the input of Gregg Williams and Co. to Gibbs and Snyder.

The fact remains this team can go out in the offseason and find a player like Carlos Emmons or Dexter Coakley, rent-a-veteran linebackers, and get more consistent 16 game performances than we receive from #56.

This defense trading Arrington for a capable veteran doesn't miss a beat

[Guest GibbSkins11]

I love the rationalizations by the Extremeskins Pravda brigade. (not you, guru.) All of a sudden the great LBs owe it all to this scrappy LB coach who's hard BUT FAIR! :laugh:

I've been saying for some time that I read up on Bears opiniions of their D before Lovie Smith and it was by and large, NOT favorable and not because of performance but because of coaching.

They actually laughed when we got Blache. I'm not trying to drag Blache into this but perhaps some here overestimate the level of esteem with which we should hold some of the staff without knowing the situation a touch more intimately.

wtf look at what blache has done for our d line and how he has coached them , this is easily the best defensive line the skins have had since their last super bowl year in 92 , ok add the fact that joe gibbs and gregg williams brought them in so who would u rather have a lb overpursing and us finishing 8-8 or 7-9 or 5-11 or a coaching staff(blache and lindsey included) that is the best in the nfl?oh yeah the bears and blache read below lets see what he did for them:applause: :helmet: :applause:

In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season. During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (2 in 1999, 4 in 2000, 5 in 2001, 1 in 2002, and 1 in 2003).

In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season. They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time. In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=30

lets focus on beating philly and making the playoffs:cheers:

[Ghost of]

Ghost, give it a rest.

I can't point to a year where there hasn't been tumult with #56 at the center of it for the Redskins.

Arrington has still not learned there is more to playing in the NFL than having a fast 40 time and making the highlight reel hit.

I guess all those times I corrected you on very basic factual errors/misrepresentations weren't enough to warrant a response.

You finally have something to say to me. :laugh:

Other THAN this year, can you tell me what the tumult was with Arrington in previous?

What because he didn't think he was as effective with his hand on the ground? On a 7-9 Spurrier team that got DEMOLISHED vs. Philly on Monday night and saw Danny W and Shane Matthews suit up for the BnG, you think Lavar was the "center" of tumult?

In 2001 he was the center of tumult? (I thought he helped salvage the season.)

Last year during the season? I remember Clinton speaking the truth about the offense last year after Cleveland. Don't recall Lavar being an issue until this offseason after his knee injury.

Funny how Lavar was the starter for the team in 2004 before he got hurt. Odd that, if I recall correctly, he was on the field EVEN for third downs. But I guess it took time for Williams to see how terrible Lavar is. After all, those preseason games didn't show enough.

[TheGuru10]

http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=55

Thanks, now I'm worried we'll lose him to an NFL head coaching job this offseason too. :laugh:

Cummon, don't go throwing a team bio at us and expect us to take that as an unbiased representation of his abilities as a coach. Has there ever been a negative word in a coaches bio put out by the team.

[Ghost of]

Ghost Part II:

If the Redskins coaching staff on defense is suspect how come the free agent moves have almost all worked and the defense has been in the top 10 the past 2 years?

You can't have it both ways. You can't look at a team with a 9-6 record for the first time in 6 years and then dump all over the staff that got the team and the players to put this together.

You missed the point of my post.

It was not to dump all over the staff but prove that sometimes success is a matter of synergy and that in other cases, today's heroes are tomorrow's goats. Merely telling me who X, Y, Z coached, positionally, is not enough or reason to find them credible. When I responded to TK posting that bio, I was only proving a point, not "dumping" all over Lindsey.

Basically, the idea is that not everyone shares the same opinion.

I highly respect almost all of the moves the staff has made with personnel.

Going beyond that, though, I think it's important for me to stress that this really isn't about Arrington.

I see the same thing happen to any player who doesn't get the explicit endorsement of the staff. If you don't get that or people merely PERCEIVE that you are out of favor, they will turn on you.

I get an uncomfortable, 1930s era USSR feeling about the whole thing. I almost expect to see Comrade Lavar in a show presser denouncing himself as a traitor. Then in the 2006 Redskins encyclopedia, there will be no player from 2000-2005 who wore #56 and the media guide will read: Warrick Holdman--Glorious leader of the linebacking corps along with Marcus Washington locked down the perimeter of our victorious Redskins defense as it has always been!

[TheGuru10]

wtf look at what blache has done for our d line and how he has coached them , this is easily the best defensive line the skins have had since their last super bowl year in 92 , ok add the fact that joe gibbs and gregg williams brought them in so who would u rather have a lb overpursing and us finishing 8-8 or 7-9 or 5-11 or a coaching staff(blache and lindsey included) that is the best in the nfl?oh yeah the bears and blache read below lets see what he did for them:applause: :helmet: :applause:

In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season. During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (2 in 1999, 4 in 2000, 5 in 2001, 1 in 2002, and 1 in 2003).

In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season. They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time. In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns http://www.redskins.com/team/cprofile.jsp?id=30

lets focus on beating philly and making the playoffs:cheers:

And with all that tremendous success as a defensive coordinator w/ his trusty LB coach Tonto, oops, Dale Lindsey at his side, he is now only a Defensive Line coach. Doesn't really add up does it?

[great28]

You have to know him personally to hold the position that he's got an ego? That this ego has led him to butt heads with coaches, from Schottenheimer to Marvin Lewis to Williams and Lindsey? Don't you remember how LaVar didn't want to play from the End position, didn't want to play with his hand on the ground, but then proceeded to have his best pro season doing just that on half the snaps?

Please. Even LaVar's most loyal defenders will admit that he's got an ego, and that this has led to his getting into scraps with coaches.

Yes he does have an ego. But so do all NFL players. Hell even Lindsey has an ego. My thing is you guys make comments as if you were his lockermate. I just have one question for all of you Lavar bashers. Does he or does he not make plays when he's on the field? You say you can't wait for him to be gone. And with a straight face, knowing full damn well that when he's gone you'll be missing him at some point or another. At least the guy wants to be here.

Oh and P.S. He would make more than 9 plays if he was a part of the 3rd down package.

[visionary]

BY the way, before we get too carried away in praising Lindsey, who is a good linebackers coach, let's not forget how bad the Chargers defense was under him.

Not that this has anything to do with this current situaiton, but I think that it should also be part of the big picture, when we talk about how successful he has been.