Whats the deal about this Tookie Williams guy?

[dreamingwolf]

I can agree with that, most who have money if comtemplating a crime think about all the actions etc... plan it out, where when you have some who are not as lucky don't think things out as well, or do not have the ability to cover it up.

Take for example the young kid from PA that shot the parents of the girl he loved, he was not rich, acted more out of passion, and didn't think his crime out completely, and was caught days after.

Now look at the congressman who killed his girlfriend in DC (never admitted it but we know he was behind it) They still have no clue about that, and that is sad.

well we dont know that they dont have a clue about that.

we have to remember there are so many dynamics that go into crime. Crunching the stats to prove a point leaves out so many of those dynamics. On top of that there are so many better arguements against the death penalty then just crying that its racist, I personally dont by that arguement regardless of how you crunch the statistics available. its too dynamic of thing with too many factors. how many of one race killed another didnt get the penalty compared to the other race, in the same income level, in the same circumstances ect. How many cases were never solved, are the situations you cite all similar ect.

it goes on and on. I think its too dynamic to boil it down as easily as you are doing with the stats your using. those stats only say one thing race. theres far more to the story than just that.

[boobiemiles]

Whether your pro or con for the death penalty this case shows me that the justice system is a joke. I do not understand how you have men such as Nickey Giaancona (Sp), Scarfo, and a bunch of other wise guys get off with a slap on the risk just because they turned state's witness. These guys will admitting to killing people in the most vicious ways, but they get a slap on the risk because they turn state. Last night I was watching Investigative Reports, and Nickey didn't show any remorse. He didn't say i'm sorry to the families that he hurt. Instead he just ratted out the people he worked for and got paid for giving an interview. And since he is under witness protection, the nice people of Pennsulvania get to foot the bill for his new life. Where is the justice? Why is death good for some people and not for other. And once again people denote race with the word minority. The death penalty is a pony show for the majority to feel safe. People that can not afford to get off are given lethal injections. The rest get to turn states evidence or pay an attorney enough oney to substanctiate reasonable doubt.

Tokie wouldn't admit to killing these guys because his case was ongoing up until the last minute. In my opinion his guilt is not the issue, the Justice System is.

[Thinking Skins]

I think you've done an excellent job of cherry picking specific facts that support your thesis, while ignoring others that would harm it.

I oppose the Death Penalty (interesting that if you do a search of threads from years ago, I was a supporter, but changed due to conversations with people here, and my own research), but the sense I get from your argument is that the Death Penalty isnt your true motive, instead you have a problem with our justice system as a whole, which I totally DISagree with.

You think our Criminal Justice system is perfect?

I'm not trying to rally for a complete change in government. But you've got to recognze that these facts exist. Whether we're still in the 60's or not, does that mean that a person shouldn't be held accountable for their actions in the 60's? Tookie did his actions in the 70's but he died today.

What I'm saying is that the criminal justice system gives a higher priority to the life of a White man than a Black man.

I'm not the first to make this argument. This is one of the reasons that many Blacks oppose CP. I named the sources to show you that I'm not the only one making the arguement.

But I'm asking you Kilmer17, do you see any truth in my statement?

[Thinking Skins]

Lets ignore my statement and try for this question:

which murder cases deserve death and which don't?

I'm not asking you about how its been done in the past, but how do you feel about it?

[dreamingwolf]

if the system valued the white life over the black life no whites would be executed.

boobie, I do believe they gave tookie the option of turning state and he declined. Im with you though that those rats should burn too instead of getting the out. Except maybe in espionage if they help expose other moles in the system and those that aided them, but even then they should never be free again and shouldnt have any contact(maybe supervised) with the outside world.

[boobiemiles]

if the system valued the white life over the black life no whites would be executed.

boobie, I do believe they gave tookie the option of turning state and he declined. Im with you though that those rats should burn too instead of getting the out. Except maybe in espionage if they help expose other moles in the system and those that aided them, but even then they should never be free again and shouldnt have any contact(maybe supervised) with the outside world.

I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to say that only black people are executed. Honestly this is not about black and white, but rich and poor. Poor people are executed. The people that can not afford the means to prove their innocents except with public defenders (and man do they stink) are executed. If you can name me one rich person that been put to death I will be quiet. Like I said before the death penalty is a pony show for the majority to feel safe, just like other measures that are used to passify you. Honestly what I'm asking is to much. There are to many conservative people here that "want to be right" instead of "doing what's right". Let me get this straight man denounces the life he use to live, makes books to stare kids in the right way, and he's executed for a case based on circumstantial evidence. While I watch a cold blooded killer, that admits to killing his best friend, and 23 others do an interview, and smile about it. Where is the justice?

[jbooma]

Lets ignore my statement and try for this question:

which murder cases deserve death and which don't?

I'm not asking you about how its been done in the past, but how do you feel about it?

that is a very good question, i would only call for death if the person killed mulitple people and it was premediated, acts of passion to me do not seem should be punished by death

why should you get the death penalty if you killed one person??

i would also erase age when talking about muder cases, if you kill and you are a minor you should have the same punishment as others

[NavyDave]

All murder cases rate the death penalty.

If it was up to me the OJs, Barettas, C Mansons, the BTK Killers,Lovey/ Thurston Howells, Illegal aliens, crips, bloods, Diplomats, Mafia, MS13s, Bubbas, Biffs, Buffys,Mai tais, hung los, Shaquitas,Leroys, etc wouldnt get the wussy lethal injection , it would be ol sparky and on pay per view.

[rincewind]

Lovey/Thurston Howells? Were one of them murdered? Did one of them commit murder?

[NavyDave]

Lovey/Thurston Howells? Were one of them murdered? Did one of them commit murder?

Duh

Rich people who murder wise azz

[rincewind]

Duh

Rich people who murder wise azz

:doh: - we need a smilie with the symbol for going over one's head. my fault

[nelms]

All murder cases rate the death penalty.

If it was up to me the OJs, Barettas, C Mansons, the BTK Killers,Lovey/ Thurston Howells, Illegal aliens, crips, bloods, Diplomats, Mafia, MS13s, Bubbas, Biffs, Buffys,Mai tais, hung los, Shaquitas,Leroys, etc wouldnt get the wussy lethal injection , it would be ol sparky and on pay per view.

Got to give it up for ND. He's an equal opportunity mofo. :laugh:

[NavyDave]

I'd be Hanging Judge Roy "NavyDave" Bean with the quickest decisions on earth.

ND: You formed the Crips and killed 4 people

Toookie: yeah, well....

ND: Baliff!!

Baliff: BANG!!

[rincewind]

I'd be Hanging Judge Roy "NavyDave" Bean with the quickest decisions on earth.

ND: You formed the Crips and killed 4 people

Toookie: yeah, well....

ND: Baliff!!

Baliff: BANG!!

eeeeoooooookkkkkayy.

[NavyDave]

I do shave my head during the summer and fall and the uniform is close to that of a Navy CPO

[NavyDave]

Why do I get the feeling that some of you would figuratively dig up the people shot blame them for being part of racist machine and claim his environment had him think he had to defend himself or do what he had to do to survive.

[Kilmer17]

You think our Criminal Justice system is perfect?

I'm not trying to rally for a complete change in government. But you've got to recognze that these facts exist. Whether we're still in the 60's or not, does that mean that a person shouldn't be held accountable for their actions in the 60's? Tookie did his actions in the 70's but he died today.

What I'm saying is that the criminal justice system gives a higher priority to the life of a White man than a Black man.

I'm not the first to make this argument. This is one of the reasons that many Blacks oppose CP. I named the sources to show you that I'm not the only one making the arguement.

But I'm asking you Kilmer17, do you see any truth in my statement?

Which statement? That the system gives higher priority to a white man? Absolutely none.

You have other points and stats that are valid, but only paint a partial picture. Is our system perfect? No. But it's also not 100% IMperfect. That's the flaw in your argument.

Race plays very little into the equation (it would be dishonest to say NONE), what does factor in is wealth, priviledge, and family.

The alarming statistic about prisoners in the US isnt the color of their skin, but rather the alarming rate in which males from single parent households dominate the population.

[Thinking Skins]

Which statement? That the system gives higher priority to a white man? Absolutely none.

You have other points and stats that are valid, but only paint a partial picture. Is our system perfect? No. But it's also not 100% IMperfect. That's the flaw in your argument.

Race plays very little into the equation (it would be dishonest to say NONE), what does factor in is wealth, priviledge, and family.

The alarming statistic about prisoners in the US isnt the color of their skin, but rather the alarming rate in which males from single parent households dominate the population.

all I can say is that its interesting to see the different views on the impact of race on capital punishment. For those who think there is no impact, I hang my head because I am not convincing enough to bring it to your attention.

People ask 'well if White life is more important than Black life, then why does the system ever execute Whites?'

People say 'man, the problem isn't White on Black crime, its Black on Black crime'

People say 'Whites don't even kill Blacks No More, its always the other way around'

Those statements completely ignore the stats I put up. Its saying, "OK, I know that Whites dont get killed for killing Blacks, but they get killed for killing Whites"

"And I know that Whites dont get killed for killing Blacks, but hey even Blacks dont get killed for killing Blacks."

For those of you who think that I'm a rebel trying to revamp the whole Criminal Justice system and ...., all I can say is you're assuming too much about me.

For whatever the reasons are, maybe every excuse that was given in this thread about what I, maybe every one of them is true. But that still doesn't make my statements false!

You're trying to make me sound like a Jesse Jackson wannabe, when thats not my goal. But its ludacris to talk to a Black man about the criminal justice system and say that it treats Blacks fairly.

And if you want to believe that it will from now on, thats your decision. But don't argue that what has happened in America didn't happen.

Its kinda like the history books in America that wype out the stuff about how America took the land from the Indians or how the Presidents had slaves or any other bad side of America's history.

Its crazy. As far as kids today are concerned, the Civil Rights Movement was just a speech by Dr. King and Rosa Parks.

[Predicto]

Some of us get what you are saying.

I have stayed out of it because as a known liberal perpetrator on this board, sometimes it seems that if I say anything, the posts fly in with: "oh, here comes San Francisco again" or some such nonsense, and the whole thing gets derailed.

You were defending yourself just fine, so I stayed out of it.

[DeanCollins]

Which statement? That the system gives higher priority to a white man? Absolutely none.

You have other points and stats that are valid, but only paint a partial picture. Is our system perfect? No. But it's also not 100% IMperfect. That's the flaw in your argument.

Race plays very little into the equation (it would be dishonest to say NONE), what does factor in is wealth, priviledge, and family.

The alarming statistic about prisoners in the US isnt the color of their skin, but rather the alarming rate in which males from single parent households dominate the population.

:notworthy

What I'm hearing, which is typical, is that people other than the color white

do not get fair treatment in the justice system. This argument is an absurd one. It implies that all non-whites are poor and can't afford quality legal representation and/or that if the person is not white than the justice system pulls out another set of rules and punishments. It's a pure racial agrument complete with stereotypes and generalizations. Just as many white men appear in court with court appointed representation.

The agrument here should be, should deffendants who are indigent (without funds) be apppointed the best attorneys at the publics expense? And the answer is no.

It is a person's responsibility to deffend themselves in court. Chances are good that the person's actions brought them into the court. Do people get wrongfully charged? yes. Wrongfully convicted? yes. Is the system perfect? No. Do we all know this? Yes.

I would compare going to court with going into a casino. You gotta pay, if you want to play. And you can never be sure what the outcome will be. Do you feel lucky? I don't. That's why I stay out of casinos and try like hell to stay out of court.

With that said. And I said this earlier, if you know that the judicial system is unpredictable, and that you can't (or don't want to) pay tens of thousands of dollars for a well trained, well connected attorney (they are worth every penny if your @$$ in on the line), then keep your nose clean, and stay away from shady people, places, and things.

Allot of people don't think about what they are doing, then they get into trouble and want to blame everone else for thier situation. Granted it's a psycological deffense mechanism (denial), for the brain to block out the pain of the realization the we are solely to blame for the mess we are in.

Here's a little saying that might help here...."sometime we get what we deserve, sometimes we get less than we deserve, sometimes we get more than we deserve, But we alway get what we get". that's life, get used to it.

[jbooma]

Its crazy. As far as kids today are concerned, the Civil Rights Movement was just a speech by Dr. King and Rosa Parks.

And they would be proud because today a lot of blacks and whites and other minorities see themselves as people not color.

I was at a wedding this weekend and the bride and groom were black, the groomsmen were white, black, italian, hispanic, black, black, white/black, part of the brides family were from wisconsin and all white.

There were gay, straight, asian, small, tall, you name it, and no one noticed for one second.

Yes there are still racial issues in this country, but we have come a long way and you would be a fool to say differently, especially with the youth and people my age.

[jbooma]

I would also say for those that think the jail systems are all minorties, why don't you take a trip to one and find out for yourself. I worked at the Fairfax County Sheriff office for 3 years and saw a bit of everything, and yes their were rich people there too.

There are countless stories of sheriffs delivering papers to people here in NOVA and would find the richer people dead before they got there, they decided suicide was better then jail, and this happens more then you know because it isn't in the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[HOF44]

I agree completely with Kilmer and DeanCollins. The biggest problem with the justice system today is the disparity between the representation of poor versus wealthy people.

[Thinking Skins]

And they would be proud because today a lot of blacks and whites and other minorities see themselves as people not color.

I was at a wedding this weekend and the bride and groom were black, the groomsmen were white, black, italian, hispanic, black, black, white/black, part of the brides family were from wisconsin and all white.

There were gay, straight, asian, small, tall, you name it, and no one noticed for one second.

Yes there are still racial issues in this country, but we have come a long way and you would be a fool to say differently, especially with the youth and people my age.

What are you talking about? What you say is great, but help me unerstand how it relates to anything I've said.

I apologize if you think I concentrate on race too much, but its just ignorant to say that the problems regarding race have just evaporated into thin air.

[Thinking Skins]

I would also say for those that think the jail systems are all minorties, why don't you take a trip to one and find out for yourself. I worked at the Fairfax County Sheriff office for 3 years and saw a bit of everything, and yes their were rich people there too.

There are countless stories of sheriffs delivering papers to people here in NOVA and would find the richer people dead before they got there, they decided suicide was better then jail, and this happens more then you know because it isn't in the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I agree. More Whites are in jail than Blacks. But how does this relate to the stuff about capital punishment?