Spaceman Spiff Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I know he was a gang leader (bloods or crips, whatever) and I know he's on death row and the lefty hollywood types are trying to get him off...but based on what? I've heard it being talked about lately and heard someone talking about it on the radio today...seems pretty nonsensical to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Force Cane Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 leftists spend more time defending terrorists and murderers (mumi abu jamal?) than they do the defenseless (abortion and Iraqis). what great humanitarians! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Basically the argument for keeping him alive is centered on his really good behavior. He's written kids books and reached out to young people with the message of stay away from gangs. Also I don't think his case was as much a slam dunk as people seem to think. Personally I think most of it is coming from folks like me that aren't entirely comfortable with the death penalty. For me unless you have the guy on tape, or at least 3 witnesses, and a confession that was granted without police "help". Then I am not in favor of the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 leftists spend more time defending terrorists and murderers (mumi abu jamal?) than they do the defenseless (abortion and Iraqis).what great humanitarians! :mad: I find it ironic that the religion that some of them bash (christianity) is the exact thing they're trying to do here...ask for forgiveness of sins, repentence, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 He is the founder of the Crips and a guy with a really, really bad history. I mean evil to the core. According to some, he has totally turned his life around since going into prison, and has attempted to undermine the gang lifestyle he himself helped to create. He has written books, articles, etc., repudiating gangs and violence for many years. Others claim it is just an act to avoid the death penalty. Now all of his appeals are done and he is about to be executed. People are asking the Governor for clemency, asking that his sentence be commuted to life in prison because he has reformed and because he is doing good now. It's a very controversial question here in California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I find it ironic that the religion that some of them bash (christianity) is the exact thing they're trying to do here...ask for forgiveness of sins, repentence, etc. Of course, no other value system than Christianity stands for forgiveness and repentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Force Cane Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 the TRUTH is that he still refuses to turn on his crips because he doesn't want to be a "snitch"... he has never ADMITTED HIS GUILT or apologized for his actions! he just wrote some childrens books in the decades being on death row. how many people on death row do you know that do NOT try to make themselves look better to avoid the needle?!! just another cause celebre for the lefties in Hollywood. how many of those actors have ever heard of this guy before last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 He has never admitted to any killings. He has created one of the worst gangs in the history of this country. He has not been a model inmate based on the guards/warden. His own child that could have read the book he wrote was not affected by his writings and got in trouble also.. I don't believe in the death penalty and think he should get life in prison but lets not put him up on the "turned" his life around when there is no evidence other than a childrens book to say otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 Of course, no other value system than Christianity stands for forgiveness and repentence. I never said christianity was the only one. most religions, in general, do. Yet, this country is predominantly christian, the left tries to bash it, and then turn around and try to display what could be viewed as christian values to free this guy. thats the point i'm trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 the TRUTH is that he still refuses to turn on his crips because he doesn't want to be a "snitch".......and because he'd be killed. You left that part out.he has never ADMITTED HIS GUILT or apologized for his actions! he just wrote some childrens books in the decades being on death row. how many people on death row do you know that do NOT try to make themselves look better to avoid the needle?!!This argument is like putting a rock on his back and throwing him in the river to see if he's a witch. Perhaps the reason he hasn't admitted his guilt is because he isn't guilty? Wouldn't be the first guy on death row that wasn't guilty. Though granted in this case, if he isn't guilty at that particular murder, he certainly isn't an "innocent" person having founded the crips. Anyone know about the guys trial? Word is the jury was all white and finger prints and other evidence found at the crime scene that didn't match him were ignored and not presented. Is this true? How strong was the case against him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Starting tomorrow you won't have to worry about it unless the "leftist" governor grants him clemency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 Destino, the guy on the radio (i'm not sure what station it is or what the show was, it was just on in the kitchen when i was making lunch) said that when he got to jail he admitted to killing cops and ordering people murdered from jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I find it ironic that the religion that some of them bash (christianity) is the exact thing they're trying to do here...ask for forgiveness of sins, repentence, etc. a few things. Old school bible talk is full of "Eye for an eye" talk. also, as a Jew, I'm very offended by your assumption here. I saw how you altered your statement here in a later post. But, this was alittle messed up. The core of most religions today isn't killing people. That's Aztec crap. Christian's don't corner the market on forgiveness. Yom Kippur would tell you that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 a few things.Old school bible talk is full of "Eye for an eye" talk. also, as a Jew, I'm very offended by your assumption here. I saw how you altered your statement here in a later post. But, this was alittle messed up. The core of most religions today isn't killing people. That's Aztec crap. Christian's don't corner the market on forgiveness. Yom Kippur would tell you that. Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. But as a Christian, its what I know. I'm not gonna sit here and try to talk about all other religions when I don't know the ins and outs of them as well as my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Destino, the guy on the radio (i'm not sure what station it is or what the show was, it was just on in the kitchen when i was making lunch) said that when he got to jail he admitted to killing cops and ordering people murdered from jail.I have heard things like that but I don't know enough to comment. If anyone is familiar with the details feel free to chime in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 that's fine. But just realize that the world has evolved over the past 5000+ years. Religions alter what they hold as their cores. From Crusades to Witch Hunts to Pasters on TV. It keeps changing, and the message keeps changing. Very slowly. But, today...the cores are the same. Killing is wrong. Before it used to be punishment for so much. But today, we're alittle smarter than that. At least we all should be. On to Tookie. I don't really have an opinion on this. I always thought a crappy life in prison for 60 years is worse than death. That's an easy way out. Just don't make the convicts comfy. I don't care if they lose their minds from bordom. Just make them sit in there 24/7. No comforts at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 a few things.Old school bible talk is full of "Eye for an eye" talk. also, as a Jew, I'm very offended by your assumption here. I saw how you altered your statement here in a later post. But, this was alittle messed up. The core of most religions today isn't killing people. That's Aztec crap. Christian's don't corner the market on forgiveness. Yom Kippur would tell you that. Why did you just insult the Aztecs? Just who the hell do you think you are pal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lckelsey4 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tookie_Williams Scroll down to the part about the Yang Family. Sounds like he was a great guy, despite whatever he did while being incarcerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boobiemiles Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I find it ironic that the religion that some of them bash (christianity) is the exact thing they're trying to do here...ask for forgiveness of sins, repentence, etc. I'm completely offended and dissapointed in this post. It really ticks me off that people like you believe that you are right in your assumptions. Then you go on to say you don't know anything about the other religions....at least you got "I don't know anything" part right. How can you make any judgement at all when you don't know the whole gravity of either a religion or why this guy should be granted cremency from death row. How can society full of idiots make any judgement on whether a man should live or die? God gives life all man does is take it away. Where is the forgiveness in that? Please tell me what is Christain about the Death Penalty? Jesus Christ was persumed a criminal to Rome, and we saw what has happened. Then numb nuts like you only play to th Christian Doctrien when it suits you. Unlike Ted Bundy, Tookie didn't try to stay his execution by making the authorities run around on some wild goose chase trying to find more dead bodies. I just don't get it. This guy is saying that only leftist can forgive a man that has clearly helped stared kids away from harm. What is so great about being Right in this case. I mean what is more valuable to society? Killing a man, or employing the man to save others through what ever means are at his dispossal. One more dead black man, or poor person. Sounds real Right Winged American to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20051212%2F0420219565.htm&photoid=20040401NY118&ewp=ewp_news_1205tookie_williams SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The California Supreme Court late Sunday refused to grant a stay of execution for convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, meaning the former gang leader who became an outspoken critic of gang violence will be executed early Tuesday unless the governor grants clemency or a last-ditch federal appeal succeeds. Williams' supporters also made another pitch directly to the governor Sunday to spare his life, telling Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger in a letter that they had a new witness who could help prove Williams' innocence. ``All we need now is time to investigate to make sure this story is real,'' said NAACP California President Alice Huffman. ``We're hoping and praying for clemency, but we're not going to leave any stone unturned.'' Schwarzenegger said last week that he was agonizing over Williams' request for clemency. Prosecutors and family members of the victims have urged him to deny the request, in part because Williams continues to deny guilt in the slayings. No clemency request has been granted in California since 1967, when Ronald Reagan spared a mentally ill killer. Following the state Supreme Court ruling, lawyers for Williams immediately asked the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals here to block his looming execution. A decision was expected Monday. Williams' supporters, an outspoken group ranging from community leaders to actors and rappers, have held rallies in his support and argue that executing Williams would send the wrong message. They say he has redeemed himself by speaking out against violence and writing children's books on the evils of gang life. During his 24 years at San Quentin, the Crips street gang founder turned his life around to the point that a Swiss legislator, college professors and others repeatedly submitted his name for Nobel peace and literature prizes. Williams, 51, was condemned for the slaying of a man during a robbery in February 1979 and the deaths of a couple and their daughter at a South Los Angeles motel the following month. He denies committing the murders but has apologized for founding the Crips, a gang prosecutors blamed for thousands of murders in Los Angeles and beyond. Williams is scheduled for lethal injection at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday. He would be the 12th inmate executed by the state since California reinstated the death penalty in 1977. The state Supreme Court ruled 6-0 against staying his execution, saying Williams' last-minute appeal lacked merit and was untimely. Deputy Attorney General Lisa Brault had implored the justices early Sunday to dismiss the petition, writing that it ``is without merit and is manifestly designed for delay.'' The justices earlier had denied a defense request to reopen the case over allegations that shoddy forensics linked a weapon used in three of the murders to a shotgun registered to Williams. In the defense request for a stay of execution, attorney Verna Wefald had argued that Los Angeles County prosecutors failed to disclose at trial that witness Alfred Coward was not a U.S. citizen and that he had a violent criminal history. Coward is now in prison in Canada for the murder of a man during a robbery. ``All of the witnesses who implicated Williams were criminals who were given significant incentives to testify against him and ongoing benefits for their testimony,'' Wefald wrote. The California Supreme Court, a federal district court judge in Los Angeles, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court have all upheld his convictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsOrlando Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tookie_Williams Scroll down to the part about the Yang Family. Sounds like he was a great guy, despite whatever he did while being incarcerated. Thanks for the link, appears the ole saying "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" works for his children. The only comment I will make directly about this is that some people talk about forgiveness, but if he admits he's done nothing wrong, than there is nothing to forgive. Only those who admit wrongdoing can be forgiven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Force Cane Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 exactly. how does he deserve clemency if he has never admitted his guilt or sought repentance for it? but that is okay, hopefully we will have one less liberal cause celebre by tomorrow morning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Im torn. I dont know what killing him accomplishes. But at the same time, I realize there is a price to be paid if he is granted clemency (precedent for one). But the first part is what concerns me the most. Does killing him advance society or make it better? Wont we be better served by him living life in hell and used as a model of what not to do? I think his priviledges should be removed, but that a-whole-nother argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I'm completely offended and dissapointed in this post. It really ticks me off that people like you believe that you are right in your assumptions. Then you go on to say you don't know anything about the other religions....at least you got "I don't know anything" part right. How can you make any judgement at all when you don't know the whole gravity of either a religion or why this guy should be granted cremency from death row. How can society full of idiots make any judgement on whether a man should live or die? God gives life all man does is take it away. Where is the forgiveness in that? Please tell me what is Christain about the Death Penalty? Jesus Christ was persumed a criminal to Rome, and we saw what has happened. Then numb nuts like you only play to th Christian Doctrien when it suits you. Unlike Ted Bundy, Tookie didn't try to stay his execution by making the authorities run around on some wild goose chase trying to find more dead bodies. I just don't get it. This guy is saying that only leftist can forgive a man that has clearly helped stared kids away from harm. What is so great about being Right in this case. I mean what is more valuable to society? Killing a man, or employing the man to save others through what ever means are at his dispossal. One more dead black man, or poor person. Sounds real Right Winged American to me. OK that's enough of spaceman bashing. The reason he mentioned Christianity is because 1)Bashing of it does center, in the US, around the left side of the political spectrum 2)His familiarity with the concept of forgiveness on this scale is through Christian teachings. No where did Spaceman claim that it was limited to a certain religion, nor did he bash any other. He spoke from his experience. He also stated that he did not mean offense. I think before you bash someone as harshly as you just did you should at least consider the persons intentions. I see no reason to believe that Spaceman meant to insult anyone and thus I think the negative reactions to walk he wrote are reasonably uncalled for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Sounds like there was enough evidence to convict him, and not even the 9th Circuit Court has found any legal feet to stand on to overturn his conviction or get him a new trial. There are pictures of the family he massacred floating around on the web. LA Countryh released the reports in order to show how horrible the murders were... shotgun from point blank! The deal is, because he is African American and claims to be "redeemed" he feels like he deserves to live. Honestly, I'm a Christian and if I felt like I was "redeemed" of murder than I would be happy to know I'd be with the Lord soon, and I wouldn't feel like my redemption should absolve me from paying just penalty on earth for my actions. The rhetoric coming from African-American "leaders" here in LA is ridiculous. One of them held a news conference and said the kids in the community weren't laughing and playing because Tookie was going to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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