Should Stan "Tookie" Williams be granted clemency?

[gimpy007]

How much good work did he allow his victims to do before he took their lives?

Exactly. Just because someone changes does not change what they have done. Look at how much damage he has caused by starting his stupid gang.

And of course he is sorry for what he did. He is in prison. Nobody is sorry until they get caught and the reality of the sentence sinks in. How many cheating spouses are sorry while in the act of cheating? Probably not very many.

I have an old friend from high school that got 27 yrs and 9 months for murder. He should have gotten the death penalty. I remember asking him if he felt sorry for what he had done the following day when he thought he got away with it and he said he didn't feel sorry for what he did. But he sure looked sorry when he was pleading for his life and crying in front of the judge.

Point is that people arn't sorry for what they have done, rather sorry for the punishment they must face.

[rincewind]

Prison has many purposes, among them confinement (away from society) and punishment. Rehabilitation, a concept which was in vogue up until about 30 years ago has fallen out of favor for violent criminals like this idiot because it doesn't work. Some people are just evil.

If we offered his victims the choice between death by a shotgun blast to the head and life in prison where they can "help the world", which do you think they'd take? Tookie made that choice four times for four people.

I understand what you are saying about his victims. But, what is done is done - he is in this world and they are not (i don't mean for that to sound as cold as it does). Since he is still here, allow him to try and make this world better, if he can do this by writing books speaking out against he's past actions, so be it.

The thing is i'm against the death penalty, period. Doesn't matter if they are rehabed or not, so this case is even easier for me to say "Yeah, give him clemency"

[Kilmer17]

Why? If the guy is able to influence even a handful of people to stay away from gang violence isn't it worth it?

I think the problem is I don't see the justice system as purely for punishment, I see it for the benefit of society. Criminals are kept in cages because it isn't safe for society to let them walk the streets. Likewise if one of them can benefit society from inside then all the better. I don't care about the blood lust and vengeance stuff, it serves no real purpose.

John Wayne Gacy painted some art that people (not me) have thought brilliant. I believe that EVERY person has the ability somewhere in their being to be a positive influence in some form or fashion. But they lost the priviledge of doing so when they committed their crimes.

I agree on the vengeance and bloodlust part, but that doesnt mean I dont want them severely punished. I guess we just differ on how harsh that punishment should be.

[rictus58]

No amount of good this man has done, or will do in the future can make up for the fact that he stole the lives of 4 people. His action of starting one of the most violent gangs EVER, has stolen even more lives.

[ATLANTASKINSFAN]

For all of those saying 'no' out of hand, what is the point of prison if not rehabilition. This guy obviously did some bad **** in his life and he is now trying to make up for it. If he lives there is no way he ever sees the outside world again - seems like a pretty big penalty. why not let him continue to try and correct the mistakes he made?

Someone who is sentenced to death is not sent to prison to rehabilitate. They are sent to prison to wait to die!!!!!!!! Period... Anybody who kills for people deserves to die, not have the oppurtunity to rehabilitate.

I think if the families of the victims want this guy spared so be it. If not fry him.

[SonnyRules]

He has not paid his debt to society....crank up "ole sparkey".

[ATLANTASKINSFAN]

There is nothing about prison that forces you to try to help others avoid ending up like you. So no he was NOT "essentially forced to turn his life around" in any way shape or form. The man was locked up and told he was going to be put to death, he can be as mean as he wants to because there is nothing more you can do to him at this point. He choose to go the other route on his own.

I don't view spending the rest of your life in prison with no chance of getting out as not having to pay the ultimate price. Either way you die in jail and never taste freedom again. The only question is how and when.

Too bad his victims don't even get the option of life in Jail. They paid the ultimate price and he should as well.

[ATLANTASKINSFAN]

guess they should have better connections

seriously, its a shame that not all deathrow inmates who turn themselves around get their story out. but, "Tookie" is also doing a lot to make sure people know he is turned around - he's not just saying i'm sorry, he is actively trying to help right his wrongs.

Too bad he didn;t actively think about the consequences of his actions. It's great that he is trying to right his wrongs but sorry to little to late. It's not like he killed one person, the man killed 4. Again he knew the consequences of getting caught. Sorry I do not feel sorry for him. Good for him for trying to help some people but he still took away the lives of 4 people. A couple of motivational speeches and do right books wont change that.

[ATLANTASKINSFAN]

Why? If the guy is able to influence even a handful of people to stay away from gang violence isn't it worth it?

I think the problem is I don't see the justice system as purely for punishment, I see it for the benefit of society. Criminals are kept in cages because it isn't safe for society to let them walk the streets. Likewise if one of them can benefit society from inside then all the better. I don't care about the blood lust and vengeance stuff, it serves no real purpose.

Absolutely Not. It's not ok to kill people, but if you do and say the right things while in jail you can get out of the death penalty. Not the message I want to send.

[PleaseBlitz]

There are a lot of guys in jail that speak to kids about not doing these things. Tookie is the most famous because he was the WORST of all of them before he got locked up.

If anything, he is the LEAST deserving of clemency.

[Thiebear]

I think he should get life in Prison..

But,

Didnt his children still have problems with gangs? After he was doing his "works"?

Hasn't he also been bad in prison?

[chomerics]

I say let him die. I know that he changed his life around, and yes Destino brings up a good point, but it still doens't change the fact that he killed 4 people and started one of the bloodiest wars since the civil war. It is also noted that he has created more harm to the black teenager then could ever be imagined. Think of the ITA tests yesterday, and how black people are unconciously associated with "bad" and then think of him. He is one of the reasons for that part of our subconcious.

Da Crypt Da Crypt Da Crypt is on fire

Don't get no water let dat muther f***er burn

[Lil Kenzo]

You play you pay. He can't take back what he did in the past no matter how many prizes he wins. He killed a family...A FAMILY!!!! Plus he started the crips gang which branches off into more murders. He was convicted of 4 murders, but how many other crimes and murders do you think he was involved in?????

[Chopper Dave]

I say let him die. I know that he changed his life around, and yes Destino brings up a good point, but it still doens't change the fact that he killed 4 people and started one of the bloodiest wars since the civil war. It is also noted that he has created more harm to the black teenager then could ever be imagined. Think of the ITA tests yesterday, and how black people are unconciously associated with "bad" and then think of him. He is one of the reasons for that part of our subconcious.

Da Crypt Da Crypt Da Crypt is on fire

Don't get no water let dat muther f***er burn

Honestly, you're right. He has done alot more harm than he has good. But he's still done good. Also, I'd rather die than spend life in prison. So maybe keeping him alive is worse punishment, plus, if you keep him alive, he has a chance to do more good.

Thinking about it, I'm against the death penalty. I think people should have to live with what they've done and rot away in prison.

[Mooka]

:ahhhhh: That is a scary looking man.

[DeanCollins]

It's an interesting case, thanks for delivering the particulars so I'd have a more informed opinion (thanks to all extremers for this actually).

So before I read the details I was thinking like I did when they put Ted Bundy in the chair, that every one in the State of FL should turn off thier electricity to create a power surge for his benifit.

After all "Tookie" co-founded the gang, that is now worldwide, so he is in large part responcible for 1000's of murders, thefts, drug addictions, and others crimes violent and non-violent.

And the cost to society in losses, insurance, support of of the penial system. This scumbag is much worse than Al Capone. The electric chair is too good for him really, but because of his continued involvement with the gangs,

And being the figure head of the crips, and that he has no remorse, never confessed (come on now he had to have killed some of the people). A missing point here, how many murders did he get away with??????? Dozens probably.

So he has done some good, atoned somewhat, but like my dad used to say "it takes allot of "that-a-boys" to make up for an "oh-shiet". So easy on juice boys, and set an example by executing him. Good bye Tookie

take the down elevator

[stevenaa]

For all of those saying 'no' out of hand, what is the point of prison if not rehabilition. This guy obviously did some bad **** in his life and he is now trying to make up for it. If he lives there is no way he ever sees the outside world again - seems like a pretty big penalty. why not let him continue to try and correct the mistakes he made?

A life sentence is not about rehabilitation. It's about punishment for ones actions. In this case, the death penalty was judged to be the fitting penalty. Giving forgiveness to someone doesn't exhonerate them from the consequences of their chosen actions. It is commendable that he's made a positive impact out of a sorry initial contribution to society, but he deserves his punishment.

[Henry]

I'd have to discuss it with the family of his victims before I'd even consider such a thing.

[Predicto]

The death penalty serves no deterrrent purpose, cannot be applied fairly, and is incredibly expensive and burdensome on the courts. All death cases should be commuted to permanent jail terms, including Tookie's.

[twa]

I vote for Hung,then Drawn and Quartered...Nobel Peace prize for a POS :2cents:

Added:

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Read this,and remember the ones he killed.

[rincewind]

For all of those saying 'he never gave the 4 people he killed an option' - you're right and i agree, he's a scumbag. And you're right nothing he, or anyone, says or does is going to bring those people back - and that includes killing him. So you have to ask yourself, will killing him really make the world a better place? Are we better off without someone who is urging people to not make the same mistakes he made? Yes he start an awful gang, but maybe since those people followed him into a life of crime, they will again listen when he says it isn't worth it. Maybe he wouldn't have seen the light if he hadn't been caught, but that is inconsequential since he did get caught.

All an eye for an eye does is make TWO people blind, it doesn't give you your sight back.

[rictus58]

So you have to ask yourself, will killing him really make the world a better place?

Yes, Money that would normally be spent on him in prison can now be applied elsewhere.

Are we better off without someone who is urging people to not make the same mistakes he made?

There are plenty of people who urge people to not go down violent paths. They didn't kill 4 people and begin a gang war that spread to many other cities.

Yes he start an awful gang, but maybe since those people followed him into a life of crime, they will again listen when he says it isn't worth it.

Maybe he's only saying this because of his sentence? He never apologized for what he did.

All an eye for an eye does is make TWO people blind, it doesn't give you your sight back.

No, it doesn't. But it makes you feel better. He is being put to death for the benefit of society. Good Riddance.

[NavyDave]

For all of those saying 'he never gave the 4 people he killed an option' - you're right and i agree, he's a scumbag. And you're right nothing he, or anyone, says or does is going to bring those people back - and that includes killing him. So you have to ask yourself, will killing him really make the world a better place? Are we better off without someone who is urging people to not make the same mistakes he made? Yes he start an awful gang, but maybe since those people followed him into a life of crime, they will again listen when he says it isn't worth it. Maybe he wouldn't have seen the light if he hadn't been caught, but that is inconsequential since he did get caught.

All an eye for an eye does is make TWO people blind, it doesn't give you your sight back.

Yes the world will be a better place with him dead.

Yep we are better off since he was the one who created the gangs who haven't disbanded after publishing his feelgood books.

If ignorant young thugs can stop behaving like animals after he is gone then treat them like animals and give them the big sleep.

If these pieces of human debris were given Singaporean Justice the country would be alot more peaceful.

[rincewind]

Yes, Money that would normally be spent on him in prison can now be applied elsewhere.

It is more expensive to kill him.

There are plenty of people who urge people to not go down violent paths. They didn't kill 4 people and begin a gang war that spread to many other cities.

Yeah so his point has more power - "I've done this, this is wrong" I'd rather hear about the evil of drugs by someone who has done them.

Maybe he's only saying this because of his sentence? He never apologized for what he did.

I addressed this.

No, it doesn't. But it makes you feel better. He is being put to death for the benefit of society. Good Riddance.

If it takes someone dying to make you feel better, well... I feel sorry for you.

edit: oops, i don't know how to do that fancy quote cutting - my responses are in between your points

[rincewind]

Yes the world will be a better place with him dead.

Yep we are better off since he was the one who created the gangs who haven't disbanded after publishing his feelgood books.

If ignorant young thugs can stop behaving like animals after he is gone then treat them like animals and give them the big sleep.

If these pieces of human debris were given Singaporean Justice the country would be alot more peaceful.

I still don't see how the world is better with one less person preaching peace. As for your Singapore Justice, i believe the saying goes "One can not at once both prepare for peace and war" (i know i got that saying wrong, but its along those lines)