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Pledge Declared Unconstitutional

visionary

By visionary
in The Tailgate

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Thiebear

Thiebear

Posted
Posted

I'd consider myself Agnostic: Not sure and too many inconsistencies...

Leave it in, I said and it and my 1st grader says it...

Everything has the word God in it.. Its not promoting anything other than patriotism towards This Country...

And THAT's something I believe in whole cloth!

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Mr. Nostril

Mr. Nostril

Posted
Posted

I didn't read this all, but I think it's really pretty wrong to make a bunch of young kids say it. When you say those words you're making some serious promises, and young kids don't understand what they're saying.

I should also mention that since I was 17 I've refused to say the pledge. I love America, but I don't understand how any religious person, even if they participate in a mainline religion, can pledge alegiance to anything besides their God.

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Baculus

Baculus

Posted
Posted

Make no mistake - the Founding Fathers, especially folks such as Jefferson, firmly believe in a separation of Church and State. Here is a letter written by Jefferson:

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. (My emphasis - Bac.)

Personally, it does not bother me terribly, like many in this thread, if "Under God" is kept in the Pledge, or it is removed. As it is, I have a very divided opinion on the Pledge itself and do not hold it to the same esteem as I once did; if anything, I think the American Creed is a better series of words. The thing is, I have seen those who are not strong believers who have said "It does not bother me enough to make an issue of it." I have yet to see those with faith say, "It does not bother me enough if it was removed." Keep in mind that religious language on pieces of paper money does not make or break religion - nor will it make and break a separation of Church and State. BlueTalon mentioned that one particular person is trying to create a godless society. That may be the case, but he is one person. And one person is not going to remove the faith from millions of adherents. If one person, the Roman Emperor, could not do it, I don't see how one person now can do it either.

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Destino

Destino

Posted
Posted
I never said passion and belief are synonymous. What I said is that passion derives from belief. If all you had was a lack of belief, you wouldn't have the motivation to write these arguments.

If that is what you said then you are incorrect or at least reaching on your application of the word belief. Passion, or motivation, comes from acting in your own self interest. One does not have to believe in atheism strongly in this case at all. One requires only the idea that pushing religion in schools is not what's best for the nation.

Having said that, it is important to add that atheism can be a belief, as evidenced by the abundance of proselytizing atheist hell bent on convinving others that god is a myth. Not to mention the secular humanists.

Point is you are both wrong and I am right. Booya. :)

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

Personaly it matters little to me if they drop it.

You cannot compell belief in God (whatever form), What disturbs me is the posters that reject declaring alliegance to the country they benefit from.

And as far as the drive to remove any vestage of religion from public schools,we should be free to choose what we believe and practice as long as it neither harms or is forced on another.

The drive to remove any contact with religion in schools or goverment is absurd.

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Mr. Nostril

Mr. Nostril

Posted
Posted
What disturbs me is the posters that reject declaring alliegance to the country they benefit from.
The dictionary definition of allegiance is unclear

Allegiance:devotion or loyalty to a person, group, or cause

Loyal:faithful in allegiance to one's lawful sovereign or government

Devotion:the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal (as to an idea or person)

You see the problem, because they all cross reference each other it's hard to determine how extreme a term it is. However, through out my life hearing it in context it seems that allegiance is more serious than saying you're being loyal or your devoted to a cause. Allegiance seems to mean that you'll be completely unswerving in your support. I can't agree to that. Furthermore, when you say the pledge you're not just "declaring" allegiance. There seems to be a similar heirarchy of words, pledge is more serious than promise, is more serious than a declaration. The dictionary actually supports this one

Pledge:a binding promise or agreement to do or forbear

Promise:a declaration that one will do or refrain from doing something specified

Declare:to state emphatically

So, while I love my country, am grateful for the benefits it gives me, and in certain situations would be willing to fight for it, I can't "Pledge Allegiance" to it. I love it in the sense that I want what's best for it. The dictionary supports me again:

Love:unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another

However, in order to do this it's possible for me to have to not completely uphold the governmental dealings.

Pretty much my argument is that if you're pledging allegiance to something, you're treating it like it is God, and I am unwilling to that to something that isn't God.

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chomerics

chomerics

Posted
Posted
Dude, you're just a troll...

Took you this long to figure it out Code :laugh:

Liberty, don't waste your time responding to his BS posts, he adds nothing of value, and only tries to flame the otherside. He looks like a freeper to me, I've seen many people like him, completely devoid of reality and would argue 1+1=34, then when you finally give up, proclaim that he's right and vindicated. . . :insane:

There is no discussion when logic and reason are left at the door, and with Nelms, it wasn't even left at the door, it's out the door, down the street to the airport, on a plane and in another freakin' country.

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nelms

nelms

Posted
Posted
You are right; you are way out of your league here. Stick to your one line insults.

:laugh: Yeah, that post on beliefs and disbeliefs was on an intellectual level that most of us on this board just can't comprehend. :rolleyes: Keep on dreaming, junior.

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nelms

nelms

Posted
Posted
Took you this long to figure it out Code :laugh:

Liberty, don't waste your time responding to his BS posts, he adds nothing of value, and only tries to flame the otherside. He looks like a freeper to me, I've seen many people like him, completely devoid of reality and would argue 1+1=34, then when you finally give up, proclaim that he's right and vindicated. . . :insane:

There is no discussion when logic and reason are left at the door, and with Nelms, it wasn't even left at the door, it's out the door, down the street to the airport, on a plane and in another freakin' country.

Geez chomerics, do you realize that you just described yourself to a T? BS post, adds nothing of value, tries to flame the other side.

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BlueTalon

BlueTalon

Posted
Posted
Ok, I see where you are coming from then, you aren't one of the bad guys... :paranoid: :laugh:

Again, I'm not going to be protesting or anything, but if there were a vote to remove it, I'd vote to have it removed, but in the grand scheme of things, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

:cheers:

A couple more things for your consideration.

So what if right-wingers (or whoever) think it refers to their own God? That's the beauty it -- a Baptist can think of his God, a Catholic can think of his God, a Mormon can think of himself, a Jesuit... well, you get the idea. Except for Jehovah's Witnesses. They can't think of their own God, for some reason. Their church forbids them to say the pledge. So if anyone tries to tell you that "under God" refers specifically to the Christian God, you can say "by golly, I think you're right" and then hope they shut up.

Did you know that in Arabic, the word "Allah" simply means God? It's not a name for God, any more than the word God is (FYI, "God" is a title, or job description -- Elohim, Adonai, Yahweh are examples of names). I was told this by an Egyptian Christian, and it somewhat changed the way I approach the topic. As a Christian, I wouldn't have any trouble telling someone from the Middle East that I believe in Allah.

I thought you might find it interesting.

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codeorama

codeorama

Posted
Posted
:cheers:

A couple more things for your consideration.

So what if right-wingers (or whoever) think it refers to their own God? That's the beauty it -- a Baptist can think of his God, a Catholic can think of his God, a Mormon can think of himself, a Jesuit... well, you get the idea. Except for Jehovah's Witnesses. They can't think of their own God, for some reason. Their church forbids them to say the pledge. So if anyone tries to tell you that "under God" refers specifically to the Christian God, you can say "by golly, I think you're right" and then hope they shut up.

Did you know that in Arabic, the word "Allah" simply means God? It's not a name for God, any more than the word God is (FYI, "God" is a title, or job description -- Elohim, Adonai, Yahweh are examples of names). I was told this by an Egyptian Christian, and it somewhat changed the way I approach the topic. As a Christian, I wouldn't have any trouble telling someone from the Middle East that I believe in Allah.

I thought you might find it interesting.

BT, I had considered all of those options and again, that's why it doesn't bother me SO much that I have to protest or something... :paranoid: (actually, I can't think of too many things that would)

But I guess it's just the point of that it's indicating that everyone believes some invisible "man" is controling everthing when clearly, everyone does not believe that.

But again, you explaining your point as you have is understandable and makes sense to me, in otherwords, I can understand where you are coming from... not that you care... :paranoid:

:laugh: :cheers:

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GibbsforPresident!

GibbsforPresident!

Posted
Posted

I have no problem w/ God in the Pledge. What's next? Do we get him off the Dollar Bill?

Such a nice vague statement isn't it? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Okay...I'm sure the Founding Fathers put that in place to prevent what was happening in England (National Church of England) from happening here.

The words Under God weren't actually included until Flag Day in 1954. Pres Ike took care of that. It was during the height of the "Godless Society" McArthyism fears. Let's quit attacking God...I'm more fearful of man and his interpretation of God than anything else.

.

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  • 1 year later...
Jumbo

Jumbo

Posted
Posted
You are correct in saying that atheists do not believe in God. That's the passive construction. However, you are incorrect denying the converse: that many atheists actively believe in no God. And that belief fits the definitions of religion as presented in two different dictionaries. And if you don't like the term religion, you can substitute "personal philosophy', "worldview", "outlook", "paradigm", or any similar term -- but it's still the same thing. And that's not intellectually dishonest at all.

I know what you mean. I stopped describing myself as "not religious" when asked, since I realized that my long-standing disbelief in fairies, elves, werewolves, and Nessie actually made me very religious :) . And when I considered how many other things I didn’t believe in (leprechauns, walking under ladders and black cats equaling bad luck, stepping on cracks breaking my mother’s back, Edgar Gayce, Nostradamus, the $20 bill folded correctly predicted 9/11 (and the list goes on), I saw that actually proves I am radically, devoutly, religious :notworthy . Needless to say I found this a revelation. :cool:

Also, my co-worker who teaches philosophy often substitutes the word "religion" in the syllabus and class discussions and no one notices a thing ;) . And at the university we talk about changing an operational "religion" instead of a "paradigm" because they, too, are really the same thing. In treatment, we always explored someone’s religion, but now I don't check to see how they perceive all other aspects of their life because that "worldview" (as it was called) is really the same as "religion." In fact, we always would “check” just to see if they even had any religious beliefs, but now we just know they do one way or the other no matter what they think or say to us ;) . So that saves time. :jump:

Plus, when in the past I might have asked someone about their "outlook" on whether to buy or rent during an upcoming transition like I’m facing, I now just ask them what their "religion" is on the topic :fortune: . It's made things a lot simpler for me, because all of these matters are things that I have varying degrees of passion and commitment to, so they qualify for this helpful simplification :yes: . It brings much more accuracy to my communication and increased mutual understanding. This kind of intellectual honesty always makes communicating smoother and accomplishes a great deal. I highly recommend it. :D :laugh: :cheers:

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CrabR

CrabR

Posted
Posted

I have been against he pledge since High school, ever since my neighbor [he was in the Hitler Youth and Luftwaffe] told me about the pledge and oath the German people were made to take. This just did not sit well with me

http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/Oath.html

I do not need an Oath to show my loyalty to my country, the founding fathers seen no need for a oath. Face facts the pledge was used as a political propaganda tool to fight communism back in the early 50's just as God in we trust was used as the same tool on our money back then.

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