Grab a stick & beat a dead horse - The Merged QB Threads

[Mr. Grundle]

Brunell and Ramsey basically started two halves of last season. Brunell had a rating of 63.9 against six win competition. Ramsey had an 86.1 rating against nine win competition.

Interpret that how you want.

I interpret that as THAT WAS LAST YEAR and means nothing. Last year Brunell stunk and I wanted him pulled by Week 4. Last year he was throwing 10-yard out patterns in the dirt. Last year Ramsey was the better option at QB.

This year Brunell is throwing 30-yard strikes on a line. This year Brunell is moving in the pocket well and making smart decisions. This year Ramsey is underthrowing almost every deep ball. This year Ramsey is making more bad decisions. This year Brunell looks like the better option at QB, so far. Hopefully Ramsey will somehow "get it" within the next week, or we are in for alot more mediocrity.

Who are you, Pat's wife? Or a Redskins fan?

I want the guy who is playing best to play, because I want to win games. I don't have a love affair with any one guy based on what he's done or hasn't done in the past.

Luckily, I'm pretty confident Gibbs will put us in the best position to win. If he thinks it's Ramsey, I trust him. I just don't see how he could think that at this point, which is why I think he will be on a very short leash, and could be pulled by week 2 if we are losing to Dallas. We CAN'T lose to Dallas again.

[dreamingwolf]

mods this is probably the greatest merge title you have ever done

[Ghost of]

Guys, the Ramsey excuses will never stop. Might as well give up like I did because the Ramsey apologists will find a way to stick up for him even if he's on the bench or on another team. It'll always be the same tired arguement:

"what if"

lame.

I was going to compose a brilliant post in response, but then I remembered the poster involved and figured it would be an utter waste of my ability.

Keep knockin' down those straw men, ill. Who the hell here said "what if?" Ramsey's rating as a starter last year is a fact. Brunell's record, rating, completion percentage and utter inability to move the ball is also a fact.

Ramsey's 'flashes' are a fact, no one has said consistency won't be the key. but to act as if there is nothing there is absurd. That he hasn't played nearly the games his draft mates have played and outperformed them and is STILL outperforming them, even in preseason, is a FACT. It's not debatable. It's certainly not a 'fantasy' scenario.

The people mostly playing 'what if' are the people who believe that Brunell was injured in various ways and that if he were only allowed to start(Gibbs just won't see it! lol) he'd turn it all around. This despite the actual facts of what happened. Who is playing the 'what if' game more than the antis? Unlike the antis, I'm willing to say Brunell has elevated his play above last year and does look healthier, but you also have to remember he injured his hamstring AFTER he demonstrated that he would not be good enough, and im talking DECISION-MAKING(Tampa game, NYG game.)

It'd be SOOO easy to actually construct a Ramsey-critical piece right now, but the problem is the antis are not into actually making the correct diagnoses from a negative perspective. They're just into being negative but they can't even properly express what there IS to be legitimately concerned about. THAT is what frustrates the other side.

I won't even get into how you couldn't spot QB talent before it fulfills potential if a pass from Tom Brady c. 2000 hit you in the groin.

If you ask me, you and many others here are just positioning yourselves for a 'can't lose' scenario. If Ramsey is pulled or busts, you'll crow about how you were right(though the pro-Mark people will have to be accountable if he comes in and fails--again.) If Ramsey blows up and tears up the league, you'll simply say he came out of nowhere and had shown no signs of being a starting QB in this league. If he plays decently, but not at 'elite' level,you'll call him "Trent Dilfer" or the like in order to detract any credit from his performance.

At least the other side is willing to 1) say he might fail 2) Take a stand that necessitates them being wrong OR right 3) Doesn't lie, invent crap, state things STRIDENTLY easily contradicted by actual game footage, insinuate homosexuality in their opponents, move the goalposts, or advance double standards as a reasonable means of evaluation.

Again, it's not what your bottom line take is--it's how you guys go about it. It's dishonorable(maybe not as much you, but many in your 'camp.') That's why two nuts like goldy and I have taken 'you all' to task so.

[skinsmania123]

Here we go again. PR has always seemed like a slow starter IMO. Brunell looks solid. I admit based upon what I have seen, he would appear to be the likely starter.

But Gibbs is the coach. For some reason, and let's not trust an HOF coach here, Gibbs WANTS to go with Ramsey. I say he has an excellent reason. And it is not just to say, " I gave Patrick a chance."

So let's just get behind Patrick and Joe Gibbs and hope for the best possible outcome.

[One_Mic]

Brunell and Ramsey basically started two halves of last season. Brunell had a rating of 63.9 against six win competition. Ramsey had an 86.1 rating against nine win competition.

Interpret that how you want.

Brunell also played injured most of the time he was in last season. Gibbs said himself, that "we havent seen the last of Brunell." Then he goes all out for another young QB in the draft? Im thinkin that he hopes that Ramsey might be able to pull off a Drew Brees. However, if he doesnt then he already has a great QB that can play right now, and young that can be developed. Gibbs like to do just about everything ULTRA conservative, but dont think hes just gonna let Ramsey stay in there forever. Worst case scenario, Ramsey stinks it up for most of this season.

But come now, I know some of you guys that are 100% behind Ramsey probably would love to have Brunell's accurate passes in there with the first group of receivers. Sure they can get open deep, but Ramsey is just so inconsistent on the deep pass.

[Sonny Joe Hog]

My greatest fear for this season is that Joe Gibbs will stick with Patrick Ramsey or any other quarterback through a losing streak. I don't want to lose any games that could have been won by making a change at QB. Starting with Game 1, if Patrick isn't making it happen, I hope to see Mark in the game with enough time left in the game to lead us to victory. If Joe wants to start Patrick in every game, that's fine with me as long as Mark comes in as a relief pitcher when needed to rally the team.

Truth be told, if there had been a QB competition this pre-season, Mark would have easily won it. He was near perfect in the exhibition games and he is a vastly different player now that he's healthy. I just hope that Joe won't keep Mark on the bench while the ship is slowly sinking during any given game.

I repeat: I don't want to lose any game because a QB change was needed and wasn't made - we don't need to lose first before Mark can go into the game. We have two good QB's and I don't see any reason why both of them shouldn't play throughout the season, as needed.

[jbooma]

Brunell has played better agasint the number 2 defence.

Point blank Ramsey is starting even if brunell looks better.

That doesn't matter.

Last year Ramsey plaed against the #2.

What a lot of you fail to see it doesn't matter who you play against, what matters is how you run the offense, how you throw the ball, where you throw the ball and your mechanics.

Ramsey still stays on one guy to long, Brunell surveys the entire field. If Brown can hold onto a ball Brunell's numbers last night were great. He is mobile again and he looks like the QB we wanted from the start.

The moment Ramsey struggles I think Gibbs makes a change. The former skins like Jurgenson, Mann, Mitchell, Bostic, Riggins, etc... have all said Brunell is far better right now, and he is not the same QB he was last year. Mann even said after the game he thinks Mark will be named the starter during the week. He sees what Joe wants in a QB somene that can take the team down the field and put the team in a position to score without making mistakes.

For the preseason Ramsey has 4 pics and Mark has 0, those are the numbers Gibbs cares about.

[sumodat]

My greatest fear for this season is that Joe Gibbs will stick with Patrick Ramsey or any other quarterback through a losing streak. I don't want to lose any games that could have been won by making a change at QB. Starting with Game 1, if Patrick isn't making it happen, I hope to see Mark in the game with enough time left in the game to lead us to victory. If Joe wants to start Patrick in every game, that's fine with me as long as Mark comes in as a relief pitcher when needed to rally the team.

Truth be told, if there had been a QB competition this pre-season, Mark would have easily won it. He was near perfect in the exhibition games and he is a vastly different player now that he's healthy. I just hope that Joe won't keep Mark on the bench while the ship is slowly sinking during any given game.

I repeat: I don't want to lose any game because a QB change was needed and wasn't made - we don't need to lose first before Mark can go into the game. We have two good QB's and I don't see any reason why both of them shouldn't play throughout the season, as needed.

This is so rediculous! :doh:

So, now you suggest we go Steve Spurrier on 'em? No, you have a starting QB and a backup QB. If Ramsey plays poor then that problem will be addressed, obviously. But there is no such thing as a relief pitched in the NFL. These guys have egos. If you start Ramsey, you let him play it out. If it gets to the point where you believe Ramsey can't get it done, you make a change.

Look, it is the start of a new season. Stop promoting this QB controversy garbage and get behind Ramsey! HE IS YOUR WASHINGTON REDSKINS QB!

[stevenaa]

I didn't see the game. I don't give a flip who QB's as long as they are successful. I thing PR should get a few complete games to see if he's improved. I think he will be ok. But, if he's not, he's not.

[Sonny Joe Hog]

If you start Ramsey, you let him play it out. If it gets to the point where you believe Ramsey can't get it done, you make a change.

How many losses are you willing to accept to find out that Ramsey can't get it done?

[Underwater Ally]

Truth be told, if there had been a QB competition this pre-season, Mark would have easily won it. He was near perfect in the exhibition games and he is a vastly different player now that he's healthy. I just hope that Joe won't keep Mark on the bench while the ship is slowly sinking during any given game.

If there had been a quarterback competition this preseason we would have seen Brunell getting some time going against the starting Defense, and Ramsey would have had a lot more time working against 2nd and 3rd stringers, in which case there is no telling how things would have looked.

But the concept you bring up is an interesting one, and one that came to my mind as well. I'm certainly not opposed to the idea provided that it could be managed in such a way that wouldn't completely undermine Ramsey's confidence - provided of course that that all that Ramsey needs to be successful in the long term. Also the continuity of team chemistry is a very important consideration as well, and one that I'm confident Gibbs is weighing heavily in any QB decisions. Its a tough business trying to make decisions that may potentially have conflicting long term/short term costs and benefits. Lets just be glad that we have a head coach who has been in this business for a long time.

[sumodat]

If you start Ramsey, you let him play it out. If it gets to the point where you believe Ramsey can't get it done, you make a change.

How many losses are you willing to accept to find out that Ramsey can't get it done?

As many as it takes to be certain HE is causing us the losses. Brunell had 8.5 games last year.

To be honest though, I am not looking at it like that though. I am not asking myself, how many games does Ramsey get until he is pulled. I am asking myself, how many games until Ramsey breaks out and shows his stuff to the rest of the league.

Optimism bro...

[jbooma]

Guys Brunell has played in the league for over what 13 years, he doesn't need to play against #1's. What you look at is his mechanics, his arm, how he runs the offense, and the mistakes he doesn't make.

Charles Mann said last night he would be shocked if Brunell is not starting week 2, and he wouldn't be surprised if Gibbs calls him the starter for week 1. He went on and said Mark is what Joe wants in a QB.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Also remember that Ramsey is like a pitcher who needs to warm up. In the second half of games, his QB rating is just over 100.0

[Underwater Ally]

Charles Mann said last night he would be shocked if Brunell is not starting week 2, and he wouldn't be surprised if Gibbs calls him the starter for week 1. He went on and said Mark is what Joe wants in a QB.

All the respect in the world for Charles Mann, but its not going to happen. Brunell lost the job and its Ramsey's to lose. If Ramsey does lose it, then his time in Washington is over after this season. If Gibbs starts Brunell too early, he signals to Ramsey that its over, but what happens if Brunell gets injured or underachieves again like last year? How can we expect Ramsey to succeed knowing that its essentially a lost cause as far as his future is concerned?

I think this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten, but somehow I think others are going to imagine that they see it still twitching.....

[Sonny Joe Hog]

If Gibbs starts Brunell too early, he signals to Ramsey that its over, but what happens if Brunell gets injured or underachieves again like last year?

Then Ramsey gets another chance (I thought I saw a slight movement of the horse's ear).

[sumodat]

All the respect in the world for Charles Mann, but its not going to happen. Brunell lost the job and its Ramsey's to lose. If Ramsey does lose it, then his time in Washington is over after this season. If Gibbs starts Brunell too early, he signals to Ramsey that its over, but what happens if Brunell gets injured or underachieves again like last year? How can we expect Ramsey to succeed knowing that its essentially a lost cause as far as his future is concerned?

I think this dead horse has been thoroughly beaten, but somehow I think others are going to imagine that they see it still twitching.....

Thank you! Some logic. :applause:

Guys, leave it alone. Go buy Madden and let Brunell start. Ramsey is the starter for this team. The season is here. Get off his back and get behind him. Aim all of your hostility at the Bears! Our starters are set.

[stevenaa]

"How many losses are you willing to accept to find out that Ramsey can't get it done?"

Six. If he isn't hitting recievers by then, and the line is holding up giving protection, then you make the change. This is his last chance. If he fails now he's done. He deserves a fair shot.

[arkowi]

Guys Brunell has played in the league for over what 13 years, he doesn't need to play against #1's. What you look at is his mechanics, his arm, how he runs the offense, and the mistakes he doesn't make.

Charles Mann said last night he would be shocked if Brunell is not starting week 2, and he wouldn't be surprised if Gibbs calls him the starter for week 1. He went on and said Mark is what Joe wants in a QB.

I am not arguing this (Though I think Ramsey will be the starter for a while). But, If Gibbs had some plan of starting Brunell and as you say:

"has played in the league for over what 13 years, he doesn't need to play against #1's. What you look at is his mechanics, his arm, how he runs the offense, and the mistakes he doesn't make."

Why would Gibbs leave him in a pointless game against the (backups) of the 6th best D in the leauge?

[G-Prime]

This is a useless post.. I don't get ill like this often.. But useless utter garbage.

[forbeskin]

Do my eyes deceive me? Is this yet another Brunell vs Ramsey thread?

[skinsfan93]

Remember 1987 when Williams, a veteran qb, came in for Schroeder, a talented, but young and erratic qb?.....well all we did was go onto a Superbowl win.

Look, I know Ramsey is our starting qb right now. Although I have my doubts, I am behind him 100%. But if he falters and we struggle after a few games to a .500 record, Gibbs needs to make the move and go to Brunell. It really looks like last year had as much to do with injuries as opposed to a qb getting old.

[sumodat]

Here we go again... :doh:

All these threads start out sounding unique, and then they end up at the same point.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

If there had been a quarterback competition this preseason we would have seen Brunell getting some time going against the starting Defense, and Ramsey would have had a lot more time working against 2nd and 3rd stringers, in which case there is no telling how things would have looked.

Here's the flaw in that logic though....

The mistakes that Ramsey made and the plays that Brunell made really had nothing to do with great or poor defensive play.

Ramsey underthrew open WRs with no pressure. Ramsey threw INTs with no pressure (except the one vs. Pittsburgh which I blame on miscommunication, not Ramsey).

So you could argue that Brunell would have looked just as good or better based on the fact that he'd have our starting WRs in there getting more open for him...

[G-Prime]

Give it up people jeez!