Burgundy Yoda Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: @Burgundy Yoda, learn to throw a fade? He didn't necessarily have an even playing field on those fades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, bolt2skins said: Cousins needs to step it up this year...he has underperformed for years with a very good offensive line. You give a lot of the quarterbacks on that list the Skins O-Line and they'd be unstoppable IMO...Now that we have a 'possible' good RB, Cousins needs to bring it....or we need a new QB. Once again my.02 When rg3 was here our pass protection was considered very poor. It's almost the same oline that Cousins has played with. And now our pass protection is considered pretty good. The biggest thing that changed was getting a qb that would get rid of the ball faster and not take unnecessary sacks. Our run blocking is considered to be poor, which has little to do with cousins. Cousins makes this oline look good. Additionally, cousins last two years of play have been the best I've ever seen from a skins qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said: He didn't necessarily have an even playing field on those fades I was only making a joke, but I'll touch this. The reason our fades were so bad last year were they were poorly timed and Kirk throws a ****ty fade. Thats it. Wasnt the receivers, wasnt the play, it was when and who. Thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxSpearheadxX Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, sportjunkie07 said: Cousins makes this oline look good. I mean he's great at getting the ball out sure.. But don't sneeze at Scherff and the Morgan Moses of 2017, not to mention Spencer Long's progress. RG3 was terrible at QB but he didn't have near the OLine we do today. Also Mcvay was terrible at calling running plays. Amazingly bad when compared to his understanding of a pass scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt2skins Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 10 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said: What exactly does Cousins do that warrants a post like this? No offense meant...I'm actually a fan,even had him for my FFL QB for the past two seasons. Also bear in mind that I'm new to watching him on a weekly basis.. But here's what I see/feel: He doesn't command the field like a lot of the 'elite' QB's He doesn't make any old wide receivers better, he needs good receivers Defenses don't fear him He seems to lack confidence Weak arm (?) Could be taller But I think this could be a telling year, he may turn into the Qb I think he can be.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 19 hours ago, bolt2skins said: Cousins needs to step it up this year...he has underperformed for years with a very good offensive line. You give a lot of the quarterbacks on that list the Skins O-Line and they'd be unstoppable IMO...Now that we have a 'possible' good RB, Cousins needs to bring it....or we need a new QB. Once again my.02 Chargers can have you back now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said: Chargers can have you back now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 I love me some Brandon Scherff, but if he was going to be on the list, he would likely have been listed by now. I'm also just gonna hold my breath now until Will Compton is on there, I heard he's awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake88 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 49 minutes ago, NickyJ said: I love me some Brandon Scherff, but if he was going to be on the list, he would likely have been listed by now. I'm also just gonna hold my breath now until Will Compton is on there, I heard he's awesome. Matt Jones could be top 20 based on potential alone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Rattlesnake88 said: Matt Jones could be top 20 based on potential alone... He just needs more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxSpearheadxX Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Brandon Scherff will punk enough guys this year that his probowl turns to allpro and he will be the highest listed guard next year of all the guards on the top100 (surely to be a short list, but by then he will have enough pancake block highlights to fill a 20 second split so nfl will be able to air it). No DT in the league is psyched about facing the Scherff, belee dat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 1 hour ago, XxSpearheadxX said: Brandon Scherff will punk enough guys this year that his probowl turns to allpro and he will be the highest listed guard next year of all the guards on the top100 (surely to be a short list, but by then he will have enough pancake block highlights to fill a 20 second split so nfl will be able to air it). No DT in the league is psyched about facing the Scherff, belee dat. I think Scherff will eventually be one of the best, but he needs better play from Long and Moses first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxSpearheadxX Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: I think Scherff will eventually be one of the best, but he needs better play from Long and Moses first. I thought moses played pretty darn well last year, though I don't remember him ever making a dominant block in the run game - but he has the tools. As far as Long... I think its the homer in me but if he stays healthy I really believe this is the year we say the center position is set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt2skins Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 17 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said: Chargers can have you back now Damn, I was just starting to feel comfortable around here.... So, no player critique allowed? Phillip Rivers wishes they had that rule on the Chargers forum............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Ok, I was thinking about whether to post this, and where to post this, because I don't want to turn this into a Kirk thread. But I think it's valid in the context of this thread. I think this is the evidence where the breakdown in the negotiations for Cousins' contract lies. The team (and players, and a lot of others based on reporting) see Cousins as a top half of the league started, somewhere in that 10-13 range. You can argue about a few of the guys that he's near, but that's where they see him. However, Cousins wants to be paid like a top 5 QB, and that's entirely the Redskins fault. By putting the franchise tag on him in 2016, they set the base of the salary negotiations to top 5 money. So now what they are trying to do is figure out how to pay the guy top-10 money (whatever that is) in the long term while they've already guaranteed him top 5 money in the short term. They totally screwed this up by tagging him LAST year. By doing so, they essentially erased any way of slotting his salary into a contract that would be consistent with a "top 10-ish" QB. They don't want to pay him like Brady, Brees, Ben, Rodgers, etc, because they don't think he's that guy. (Neither do I, for whatever that's worth) But the minute that they put the tag on him, they gave him the top 5 money. So now the 'Skins are in a pickle. They have a QB they like, they want to keep, but they've been stupid and put him into an over-leveraged situation. The only way you can remove the leverage is betting that if he hits the free market, and betting that other teams will not pay him top-5 money, because he's not a top 5 QB. In that scenario, you let him play it out on the tag this year, and then next year, let him hit the open market and see what he gets. With full knowledge that he might leave. If you want to lock him up, because you were stupid, you have to pay for that stupidity by giving a guy who's not a top 5 QB top 5 QB money. My suggestion would be try to do a 1+5 year deal. Essentially you give him $24m guaranteed this year because he's got it under the tag. And then tack on a 5 year deal after that with a salary around $20-$22 mil per year, guaranteeing 2 of those years. So he'd get somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 million guarenteed, a 6 year deal with an average around $22/year. I think that is the "right' type of deal for a player in his situation. The problem is, he's going to say, "But what if I take nothing, and you have to pay me at least $28 next year on the transition tag? Why don't we see how that's going to play out? And if you don't tag me, then we'll see what the contract would be in FA" And you're kinda screwed again. The one thing I might do, however, to somewhat reduce the leverage (with full knowledge that it might backfire) is just tell him that you're not going to tag him at all next year, period. This does 2 things: 1. it takes the $28 million base for 2017 off the table. 2. It means that his next contract will be more inline with where he ranks as a QB. The risk to the 'Skins in doing this is that if he just wants to go play for Kyle, you have no way to stop him, and you might lose him without any compensation. But in that scenario, maybe he wants to leave anyway, and if that's the case, I'd let him. It would suck, though. Because your other options aren't great, at least none that are immediately apparent. I'm actually at the point with this where I think they should let him test the market and see what happens. If he gets SF, Cleveland or Jax or somebody to offer him $25-26 mil per year, hopefully you have a good enough relationship where you can match it if you want to. The other option is possible that teams think he's "the best of the good" also, and offer him around 20, which is what the 'Skins are offering right now. But the 'Skins have botched this so completely that they either have to way over-pay, or risk losing him for nothing. Both options suck. Whoever decided this strategy was the right one last year was a near-sighted dope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 21 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: Ok, I was thinking about whether to post this, and where to post this, because I don't want to turn this into a Kirk thread. But I think it's valid in the context of this thread. I think this is the evidence where the breakdown in the negotiations for Cousins' contract lies. The team (and players, and a lot of others based on reporting) see Cousins as a top half of the league started, somewhere in that 10-13 range. You can argue about a few of the guys that he's near, but that's where they see him. However, Cousins wants to be paid like a top 5 QB, and that's entirely the Redskins fault. By putting the franchise tag on him in 2016, they set the base of the salary negotiations to top 5 money. So now what they are trying to do is figure out how to pay the guy top-10 money (whatever that is) in the long term while they've already guaranteed him top 5 money in the short term. Can't they do that next year, though? And absent an actual free agent market to dictate how the rest of the league sees him, wouldn't this list back up the Skins' stance and weaken Kirk's? My answer is that this list plays no role whatsoever in things, outside if Cousins was voted in the top 10 players. But if this list DID play a role in the thinking of either side, it would seem to help the Redskins' side and might even make Cousins' side blink a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Last year and this year, top 5 QB money is what they are paying him. If I'm him, I want a top 5 contract. Redskins did mess this up if they want to pay him less than top 5. So give him bottom of top 5 money, with a guarantee of several years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said: Last year and this year, top 5 QB money is what they are paying him. If I'm him, I want a top 5 contract. Redskins did mess this up if they want to pay him less than top 5. So give him bottom of top 5 money, with a guarantee of several years. I'd say just make him the highest paid ever, **** it. The thought of Nate Sudfeld starting next year is a horrifying thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petedaddy Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 3 hours ago, bolt2skins said: Damn, I was just starting to feel comfortable around here.... So, no player critique allowed? Phillip Rivers wishes they had that rule on the Chargers forum............ maybe watch a few more of the games before offering critiques like the ones you offered...it sounds more like you are spewing out the original narrative about kirk critiquing of kirk is certainly allowed, and there are several on here who do it, but they bleed maroon and black through and through and have seen him game in and game out the most logical critique of kirk is that he is good but not 25 million good i'm on the other side of the fence, i would pay him whatever he asked and be done with it, i'm convinced he's our long term answer and quarterback for a long time to come, but again, this shouldn't become another kirk thread, but just wanted to put this out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 I think the ultimate dumb scenario is the Redskins letting Kirk become a Free Agent and expecting a good QB to not be overpaid in the market. It would be the icing on the cake, because you can't tell me the Jets or 49ers won't pay him 25+mil a year. The Skins did screw this up, and I'm not sure how much of it is his agent playing hardball, which is kind of what Scot was insinuating in his interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 42 minutes ago, Califan007 said: Can't they do that next year, though? And absent an actual free agent market to dictate how the rest of the league sees him, wouldn't this list back up the Skins' stance and weaken Kirk's? My answer is that this list plays no role whatsoever in things, outside if Cousins was voted in the top 10 players. But if this list DID play a role in the thinking of either side, it would seem to help the Redskins' side and might even make Cousins' side blink a bit. I think that's basically my point, the list, and any actual valuation of how good Kirk is and where he would slot is completely irrelevant, because the 'Skins have set the negotiating table as "top 5 money" by the virtue of the tag. There's no reason for him to take less than top 5 money, because that's what's been guaranteed. The only thing that will effect the market value of Cousins is hitting FA. Because absent that, the market value IS this year's franchise tag, and next year's potential tag. The only way to change that is to let him hit FA. Which I would assume he would want to do. Totally bollixed up from the beginning. 26 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said: I think the ultimate dumb scenario is the Redskins letting Kirk become a Free Agent and expecting a good QB to not be overpaid in the market. It would be the icing on the cake, because you can't tell me the Jets or 49ers won't pay him 25+mil a year. The Skins did screw this up, and I'm not sure how much of it is his agent playing hardball, which is kind of what Scot was insinuating in his interview. I'm not entirely sure that the "Jets/49ers paying $25m+ per year is actually good for those teams. I kinda think that any team that pays Kirk that kindof money is going to find itself really hamstrung from a cap perspective. The reason you can pay Brady, Brees, Peyton Manning, Rodgers top money is that they are force multipliers. They make everybody better. The reason why paying guys like Flacco, Wilson, Tannehill, Dalton (though that was a more team friendly deal) big money is because they are good QBs that are not force multipliers. If you're going to spend top 5 money, you damn well better have a top 5 QB. In the abstract, I'd personally prefer to move on from Cousins rather than paying him a long-term top 5 money contract. However, given that (in my opinion), the fact they have to pay him that is essentially 100% on the 'Skins for being idiots, I think they have to and should pay him. Even though, to be clear, I don't think he's worth it, or has earned it. He's benefiting from the 'Skins being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPG Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 53 minutes ago, petedaddy said: maybe watch a few more of the games before offering critiques like the ones you offered...it sounds more like you are spewing out the original narrative about kirk critiquing of kirk is certainly allowed, and there are several on here who do it, but they bleed maroon and black through and through and have seen him game in and game out the most logical critique of kirk is that he is good but not 25 million good i'm on the other side of the fence, i would pay him whatever he asked and be done with it, i'm convinced he's our long term answer and quarterback for a long time to come, but again, this shouldn't become another kirk thread, but just wanted to put this out there Maroon and Black? Calling out some guy for not being a fan and then you getting our colors wrong! Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petedaddy Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, JPG said: Maroon and Black? Calling out some guy for not being a fan and then you getting our colors wrong! Did I miss something? do you remember Jim Zorn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPG Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Just now, petedaddy said: do you remember Jim Zorn? Oh gotcha. I'm multitasking thats why I was wondering if I missed something. I usually do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 41 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: In the abstract, I'd personally prefer to move on from Cousins rather than paying him a long-term top 5 money contract. However, given that (in my opinion), the fact they have to pay him that is essentially 100% on the 'Skins for being idiots, I think they have to and should pay him. Even though, to be clear, I don't think he's worth it, or has earned it. He's benefiting from the 'Skins being stupid. Well, we can definitely agree on the fact that the Skins were idiots when it came to him. When I look at the great QBs we have in the league, most of them get to where they are at because they have had the same offense installed for years. Yes, the talent is there for the great QBs but it takes a good mix of talent, offensive scheme and continuity for a QB to truly launch into greatness. Stability is something he's getting right now, with his O-line, and with Gruden, and hopefully we see a big jump in numbers and 4th quarter clutch plays. If Kirk goes out and has a top 5 season, which is possible, then I think the Skins actually did the right thing and rewarded Kirk in his best moment, but value wise, they should have paid him after 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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