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2017 Washington Nationals: Spring Training Has Sprung

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4 hours ago, StillUnknown said:

still think we should have gotten more than Adam Eaton for what we gave up

 

quite a few scouts seem to believe that we mistakenly altered Giolito's mechanics in the minors and think working with Chicago's people will help fulfill his potential. Pitcher development is not linear, writing him off now is foolish.

 

I've seen that too, and certainly not writing him off, but if it's not a question of physical talent but of a mentality, that's a harder fix (in my humble, yet expert, opinion).

In the short term, we will miss Lopez in the pen more. That pen is worrisome, as is the bench, first, and catcher. If the Mets are healthy, we could be in for another flood of those ****roach fans in Nats park.

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I don't think it was a mentality thing for Giolito. One of the reasons scouts were so high on him coming was because of his makeup and mentality.  There were several areas where Giolito struggled in the majors, I don't think any of them had to due with his mentality.

 

I think i'm more pissed about giving up Lopez though, really like his potential as a shutdown reliever

 

1 hour ago, skinfan2k said:

i dont care about potential.  Eaton gives another legit bat int he top 6.  We need to win now 

 

as a fan, we don't have to care about potential. as a GM, its a bit different

 

I've said before, I don't believe in "untouchable" prospects, but that was easily the first trade I can remember that feels like a loser for Rizzo

Edited by StillUnknown

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I could be misremembering this, but I thought Rizzo put Giolito with Scherzer to learn how to prepare? I do recall one of his knocks, at least this year anyway, was he was too "nice" on the mound. He lacked that killer instinct--so they wanted to put him with the guy who looks like he is going to murder a family of orphans when pitching.

 

We'll see in the long run. You just get the sense with this the Rizzo knows something there...but then again, he bound to lose a trade sooner or later.

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5 hours ago, StillUnknown said:

still think we should have gotten more than Adam Eaton for what we gave up

 

quite a few scouts seem to believe that we mistakenly altered Giolito's mechanics in the minors and think working with Chicago's people will help fulfill his potential. Pitcher development is not linear, writing him off now is foolish.

 

You aren't wrong. We should've got way more for what we gave up. Rizzo got taken behind the woodshed on this one. But it won't really matter if Eaton plays well. 

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yep, Eaton playing well cures all ills

 

patience might be required though, he tends to do his best work in the 2nd half of the year

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12 hours ago, Taylor703 said:

 

You aren't wrong. We should've got way more for what we gave up. Rizzo got taken behind the woodshed on this one. But it won't really matter if Eaton plays well. 

The only way Rizzo gets taken to the woodshsed is if Giolito and Lopez become dominant starters for years. Even if they both end up being decent back of the rotation guys, if Eaton plays like he normally does, its a wash. 

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If Eaton plays like he did in 2014 in center, and hits like he as for the last 2 years, he's a 6-7 WAR player. Giolito would have to be Max Scherzer in order for it to be a wash, Lopez a lights out closer, and Dunning anything to be a wash.

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1 hour ago, Popeman38 said:

The only way Rizzo gets taken to the woodshsed is if Giolito and Lopez become dominant starters for years. Even if they both end up being decent back of the rotation guys, if Eaton plays like he normally does, its a wash. 

 

He could've and should've got more for what he gave up. I'm the biggest Rizzo apologist there is and even I know he paid far too much for Eaton. 

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12 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

He could've and should've got more for what he gave up. I'm the biggest Rizzo apologist there is and even I know he paid far too much for Eaton. 

I don't think GMs valued Giolito as much as fans/reporters. He was mediocre last year and Reynaldo Lopez isn't the superstar prospect people think he is either, he's another cliche hard thrower with no control.

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Rizzo paid high for Eaton in no small part because the Nats now have control of Eaton at a relatively low cost through 2021.

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2 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

He could've and should've got more for what he gave up. I'm the biggest Rizzo apologist there is and even I know he paid far too much for Eaton. 

 

This is one of those posts that just are nails on the chalkboard--like the ubiquitous trade-deadline "GO GET A BAT RIZZO!!11!!!111!!!" Based on what? Who should have he gotten? He tried to get Robertson included in the deal, Sox said no. Would you feel better with Cutch for Robles? I definitely wouldn't.

 

As @Warhead36 said above--the industry wide was down on Giolito. Law dropped him to 13th in his top 100--that's down 10-11 spots from last year. Lopez is a reliever, Dunning is a big question mark. Honestly, I think Lopez, is easily replaceable. I would have loved to keep him in the pen for this year, but we have Joan Baez in Hagerstown hits 100, is a starter now, but will be a reliever. Plus, we have Killer Koda--who pitched through a hip labrum tear. He'll be closing by year's end, IMO.

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

Rizzo paid high for Eaton in no small part because the Nats now have control of Eaton at a relatively low cost through 2021.

 

This too. He's a 6 WAR player we have for 5 more years.

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30 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 Reynaldo Lopez isn't the superstar prospect people think he is either, he's another cliche hard thrower with no control.

 

Scherzer was once a hard thrower with no control.  

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16 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

 

Scherzer was once a hard thrower with no control.  

Ok, but for every Scherzer there are 20 Henri Rodriguezes.

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indeed, i just don't see the rush to bury Lopez. I never got the H-Rod vibe from Lopez.

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My understanding on Lopez was he was an "arm" thrower--in that he doesn't incorporate his legs as much as he should to remain a starter.

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3 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

My understanding on Lopez was he was an "arm" thrower--in that he doesn't incorporate his legs as much as he should to remain a starter.

 

thats why most had him as a closer. I would love to see him in that dedicated role.  Knowing he's only pitching 1 inning, he could unleash 98+ with that killer breaking all

 

the white sox will be interesting, they have so many great prospects. it will be interesting to see who rises and who doesn't

Edited by StillUnknown
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4 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

 

thats why most pegged him as a closer. I would love to see him in that dedicated role.  Knowing he's only pitching 1 inning, he could unleash 98+ with that killer breaking all

 

I don't understand why players like Lopez are kept in a starter's role. Just put him in the pen, and let him go.

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Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

I don't understand why players like Lopez are kept in a starter's role. Just put him in the pen, and let him go.

 

starters are more valuable. an above average starter is probably more valuable than an elite level closer. Its a matter of getting 200 innings out of a guy versus 80+. I also think its easier to transition a guy to from starter to closer, should he fail as a starter

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1 minute ago, StillUnknown said:

 

starters are more valuable. an above average starter is probably more valuable than an elite level closer. Its a matter of getting 200 innings out of a guy versus 80+. I also think its easier to transition a guy to from starter to closer, should he fail as a starter

 

Aroldis Chapman comes to mind--elite stuff, Reds put him in the pen immediately. Agree starters are more valuable, but if you look at someone like Joan Baez (one of my new man crushes, along with Juan Soto, now that every knows who Robles is), he had 64 BB in 125 IP, over 27 starts last year. I just think he'd be a lights-out reliever, he clearly isn't cutting it as a starter. Just a sermon, not a thought.

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Baez looks like the real deal...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Ok, but for every Scherzer there are 20 Henri Rodriguezes.

 

H-Rod was awful. He had zero control on his pitches. There is no comparison whatsoever between Henry and Lopez. None

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2 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

This is one of those posts that just are nails on the chalkboard--like the ubiquitous trade-deadline "GO GET A BAT RIZZO!!11!!!111!!!" Based on what? Who should have he gotten? He tried to get Robertson included in the deal, Sox said no. Would you feel better with Cutch for Robles? I definitely wouldn't.

 

As @Warhead36 said above--the industry wide was down on Giolito. Law dropped him to 13th in his top 100--that's down 10-11 spots from last year. Lopez is a reliever, Dunning is a big question mark. Honestly, I think Lopez, is easily replaceable. I would have loved to keep him in the pen for this year, but we have Joan Baez in Hagerstown hits 100, is a starter now, but will be a reliever. Plus, we have Killer Koda--who pitched through a hip labrum tear. He'll be closing by year's end, IMO.

 

This too. He's a 6 WAR player we have for 5 more years.

 

Adam Eaton has been a 6 WAR player one time in his career. Are we getting that guy or are we getting the guy who hovered between 3-4 war? 

 

And the industry didn't sour on Giolito considering everyone wanted him included in the trades we were going to make. You don't have to agree with me and that's fine but he should've got more for what we gave up. It's done and over with now but this idea that we didn't overpay is silly. It's almost universally agreed upon by everyone in baseball that the Nats overpaid. 

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1 hour ago, Taylor703 said:

 

And the industry didn't sour on Giolito considering everyone wanted him included in the trades we were going to make.

 

The problem we had in closing deals was, while people wanted Giolito, he wasn't the sure-fire ace he was 12-18 mos ago. There were several questions about his mentality on the mound. His value had dropped.

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Ken Rostenthal sure loves the negative Nats articles this time of year. Last year it was "Toxic clubhouse" this year it's "Lerners are cheap and/or difficult"

 

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