Old Redskins questions I've always wondered about.......

As a relatively young fan who (at least I believe) has a decent historical knowledge of the franchise, players, etc., I often find myself wondering about certain things that aren't reflected in the stat sheet, things that may have happened a while ago and have sort of been lost in time, with no real record. A few questions that my raise some decent debate and/or discussion:

(1) After Super Bowl XXII, and coming into the 1988 season, was Doug Williams publicly annointed the starting quarterback over Jay Schroeder? I seem to remember Schroeder being on the team up to at least training camp. What was the story?

(2) Charlie Brown was an up and coming superstar in the 1982-1983 seasons. Looks like he may have been injured in 1984, then was traded or released. Why did the team give up on him, and what did we receive in return?

(3) When George Rogers was brought in before the 1985 season, how did Riggins react, knowing that Rogers was going to be his replacement?

(4) When Dexter Manley was banned from the league, what was the general fan/local media reaction? When he returned to the league, why didn't the Redskins take him back? Too much history?

(5) When Theismann broke his leg in 1985, did the fanbase /local media/team expect that he would eventually return, or was the injury immediately deemed to be career ending?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss similar topics, and to tap into some of the knowledge possessed by the "older" members of the board.

.....(4) When Dexter Manley was banned from the league, what was the general fan/local media reaction? When he returned to the league, why didn't the Redskins take him back?.......

....Too much history?....

Gibbs had given Dex enough chances and Dex just could not change.....Gibbs let him go

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?105479-Redskin-s-History-101-Dexter-Manley

Here's how I remember it:

1) I remember hoping that Doug would decide to retire, because Schroeder was much younger and was pretty good just two years before. But I think he was traded early in training camp (or just before). Turned out to be the right move as we traded him to the Raiders for Jim Lachey, who anchored the left side for many years and helped us win another SB. Also, Schroeder was really never the same QB after being pummeled by the Giants three times in 1986.

2) Charlie Brown was traded to the Falcons in, I believe, 1985 for RC Thielmann, a veteran guard. Another good move. Thielmann fit right in and was a starter for us in SB XXII. Charlie Brown was okay but not great after the Skins, I think he only played a couple more years. Plus we added Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders in 1986. (Our immediate replacement for Brown in 1985 was Calvin Muhammad. He had a pretty good year in 85, then faded because he was diabetic.)

3) I don't remember a lot of controversy from Riggo when we brought on Rogers, but I do remember it was hard to figure out how to split up the carries. '85 turned out to be a transition year all around. Basically the last hurrah for Riggo, Moseley and Joe T. Rogers didn't turn out to be the answer though, either.

5) I don't think many people expected Joe T. to return after the broken leg, although I do remember him talking about making a comeback. The reality was that one leg is still shorter than the other because of the break. Also, he was having a pretty terrible season prior to the injury. He just wasn't playing as crisply. Lots of turnovers, few downfield plays. It seemed as though the end was near.

From a fans POV on the Riggo/Rogers issue. Gibbs 1 pretty much used a RBBC approach (albeit with an obvious head). At first this was Riggo as the head (and was also the banger) but Joe Washington got a significant number of snaps. Joe Washington was done and Riggo was getting up there.

What's the story with SB XVIII? The rumor I heard, was that part of the reason why we got spanked by the Raiders, was because some key players partied their butts off the night before the game. Any truth behind that, any good stories?

Awesome Idea for a thread OP! Thanks for doing this.

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

Here's how I remember it:

1) I remember hoping that Doug would decide to retire, because Schroeder was much younger and was pretty good just two years before. But I think he was traded early in training camp (or just before). Turned out to be the right move as we traded him to the Raiders for Jim Lachey, who anchored the left side for many years and helped us win another SB. Also, Schroeder was really never the same QB after being pummeled by the Giants three times in 1986.

Another part of this is that Schroeder and Williams didn't get along. The year before, when the Giants shut out the Skins in the NFC Championship Game, Schroeder was hurt during the game and, when Williams went onto the field to replace him, Schroeder yelled at him and humiliated him on the field in front of the team so he could finish the game. After the Super Bowl win, in a pre-season game against the Steelers, Williams played well while Schroeder was terrible, prompting fans in the stadium to chant, "We Want Doug!" Schroeder then publicly accused the offense of playing harder for Doug than him. It was at that point Beathard traded Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey. Turned out to be a GREAT move for us and a not-so-good for the Raiders.

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

Theismann wanted to come back and play for the Skins after the injury but the doctors and Gibbs felt it was too dangerous and didn't want him to play for his health...Per Theismann's request Jack Kent Cooke waived him and he went to Philly. Cooke and Gibbs actually wrote a pretty touching letter to Theismann (sentimental Skins fan here) when they released him, thanking him and such. I have a copy of it filed away somewhere, try to find it

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

Night clubs. Cocaine. Drug dealing. Prison.

In just about that order.

i remember watching LT break Joe T's leg and asking my step dad how long he would be out. his response....he aint coming back.

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

I'm old enough to remember a little bit on this one. He has a couple good games to start the season, but it became obvious that he wasn't the answer at RB. Then he got into trouble (missed several games for unknown reasons), and then the drug issues came out.

Another question, I know that Gary Clark came from the USFL via James Madison University. How did the Redskins determine that they wanted him, and was he expected to produce on the level that he did (apparantly it was pretty much right away).

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

Had a problem with the sniffles as I understand it.

---------- Post added May-9th-2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

I'm old enough to remember a little bit on this one. He has a couple good games to start the season, but it became obvious that he wasn't the answer at RB. Then he got into trouble (missed several games for unknown reasons), and then the drug issues came out.

Another question, I know that Gary Clark came from the USFL via James Madison University. How did the Redskins determine that they wanted him, and was he expected to produce on the level that he did (apparantly it was pretty much right away).

IIRC, he was high round draft material to begin with and then was one of the best WR in the USFL, Yes, he was expected to perform at a high-level right away (not at the level he did but at a solid number 2 for Monk).

Had a problem with the sniffles as I understand it.

---------- Post added May-9th-2012 at 02:06 PM ----------

IIRC, he was high round draft material to begin with and then was one of the best WR in the USFL, Yes, he was expected to perform at a high-level right away (not at the level he did but at a solid number 2 for Monk).

On the issue of the USFL, how seriously did the local fanbase/media take the Washington Federals franchise? Were they seen as a threat to the Redskins, or was it more like a novelty that everyone thought would go away after a year or two?

IIRC, he was high round draft material to begin with and then was one of the best WR in the USFL, Yes, he was expected to perform at a high-level right away (not at the level he did but at a solid number 2 for Monk).

My memory of that is that Kelvin Bryant was the big signing out of the USFL all the media were talking up as a huge coup. Bryant turned into a good 3rd down back but not the every down between the tackles runner he was touted as. Clark was thought of as good #3 and possible #2 type receiver as I recall but he was a very pleasant surprise.

Quick bit of googling - we drafted Clark in the 2nd round of the USFL supplemental draft in 1984. Our 1st round pick? Kicker Tony Zendejas ........

We had drafted Kelvin Bryant in the 7th round of the 1983 draft even though he had signed with the USFL and so held his NFL rights when the USFL folded.

Another part of this is that Schroeder and Williams didn't get along. The year before, when the Giants shut out the Skins in the NFC Championship Game, Schroeder was hurt during the game and, when Williams went onto the field to replace him, Schroeder yelled at him and humiliated him on the field in front of the team so he could finish the game. After the Super Bowl win, in a pre-season game against the Steelers, Williams played well while Schroeder was terrible, prompting fans in the stadium to chant, "We Want Doug!" Schroeder then publicly accused the offense of playing harder for Doug than him. It was at that point Beathard traded Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey. Turned out to be a GREAT move for us and a not-so-good for the Raiders.

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

My memory of that is that Kelvin Bryant was the big signing out of the USFL all the media were talking up as a huge coup. Bryant turned into a good 3rd down back but not the every down between the tackles runner he was touted as. Clark was thought of as good #3 and possible #2 type receiver as I recall but he was a very pleasant surprise.

Kelvin Bryant didn't generate much excitement where I lived (since this was pre-internet though, we can only go by how people local to you felt). Don't know about how you thought but I know all my friends thought Clark was a definite #2 and possibly a number 1 (course some of that is because I lived in the DMV so knew people that knew JMU since, unlike today, you don't even have to be much of a geek to know the smaller schools). Also have numerous new paper articles at that time that were excited because the team had finally found a new Charlie Brown. In 1986, KB was seen as best as the return of Joe Washington since we already thought we had a better Riggo in George Rogers (didn't know George Rogers had a problem with the sniffles).

On the issue of the USFL, how seriously did the local fanbase/media take the Washington Federals franchise? Were they seen as a threat to the Redskins, or was it more like a novelty that everyone thought would go away after a year or two?

Not seriously at all. But they did have part of the Pony Express!! Go Craig James!

Kelvin Bryant didn't generate much excitement where I lived (since this was pre-internet though, we can only go by how people local to you felt). Don't know about how you thought but I know all my friends thought Clark was a definite #2 and possibly a number 1 (course some of that is because I lived in the DMV so knew people that knew JMU since, unlike today, you don't even have to be much of a geek to know the smaller schools). Also have numerous new paper articles at that time that were excited because the team had finally found a new Charlie Brown. In 1986, KB was seen as best as the return of Joe Washington since we already thought we had a better Riggo in George Rogers (didn't know George Rogers had a problem with the sniffles).

Its interesting that in those pre internet days you kind of got news and information where you could get it - and it tended to be more local. Bear in mind I was in the UK - although I spent some time in the US in 85 and 86. Bryant was a star in the USFL - he was in their All Star team and had big stats and 1,000 yard plus seasons every year. He was on my radar screen because of that and also I recall watching a preseaon or early season broadcast when one of the announcers was saying he thought Bryant would have more impact on the NFL than Herschel Walker who was the big splash/steal the Cowboys had made from the USFL.

Gary Clark was more of an unkown to me - came from a small school but was clearly someone with talent. I did not know what to expect from him but don't recall the Post (which was my main source of Redskins news back then) being all that high on him or at least not hyping him

Anyone remember how we came to get Ricky Sanders here - he was drafted in that same supplemental draft by the Patriots in the 1st round according to the table I just looked at but wound up signing with us??

(1) After Super Bowl XXII, and coming into the 1988 season, was Doug Williams publicly annointed the starting quarterback over Jay Schroeder? I seem to remember Schroeder being on the team up to at least training camp. What was the story?

Jay Shroeder was traded to the Raiders for Jim Lachey in one of the best robberies in Redskins history. We got a premiere left tackle for a QB who had talent but never had his head together. It was largely due to the locker room turning on Jay. Doug was beloved, and Jay was hated. Doug flip flopped with Mark Rypien in 1988, struggling with injuries. He hurt his back in the offseason in 1989 and had to retire.

(3) When George Rogers was brought in before the 1985 season, how did Riggins react, knowing that Rogers was going to be his replacement?

Riggins was on his last legs in 1984. He spent a lot of time in the training room and hospitals in traction and then getting out and playing on Sunday and going right back to the hospital on Monday. If there was a Salary Cap in 1985 he would have been cut. The re-signed him and everyone in the world knew that he was there for a paycheck and a thank you.

(4) When Dexter Manley was banned from the league, what was the general fan/local media reaction? When he returned to the league, why didn't the Redskins take him back? Too much history?

Dexter had been suspended prior to the banishment. There were many other things the Redskins never widely reported. Like Dexter passing out on a sidewalk in Georgetown. His play decreased. He was one sniff from lifetime ban. Once he was reinstated, the Redskins had no interest in him. He didn't do anything in Arizona or Tampa after he was reinstated, so the Redskins knew exactly what they were doing.

(5) When Theismann broke his leg in 1985, did the fanbase /local media/team expect that he would eventually return, or was the injury immediately deemed to be career ending?

Prior to his injury, Joe was fading. He was being booed by the home town crowd. He wouldn't have been back even if he was healthy. The injury actually immortalized his career for us. If he had not been hurt, he would have been benched, and cut after the season and would have gone the Art Monk route, and played a year or two in another jersey and it would have just been sad. Was the best thing that ever happened to Joe.

On the issue of the USFL, how seriously did the local fanbase/media take the Washington Federals franchise? Were they seen as a threat to the Redskins, or was it more like a novelty that everyone thought would go away after a year or two?

They were a total joke. I think they only won one or two games in their whole history. IIRC they lost every game their first season. And they weren't even close.

Whatever happened to Timmy Smith after his breakout performance?

Interesting story about this one.

I read Mark May's book a few years back and his story about that Super Bowl week was that every veteran on the team knew that Timmy would get almost all the carries during the game. The thing is that they thought he was too much of a headcase to actually tell him that, so the official story (even to Timmy) was that George Rogers was getting the nod with Smith getting limited carries. Lo and behold Timmy had the game of his life.

He played one more (unspectacular) season for the Redskins and then one game for the Cowboys in 1990, before leaving football and falling on some hard times (including 2.5 years in prison).

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitTi00.htm

Its interesting that in those pre internet days you kind of got news and information where you could get it - and it tended to be more local. Bear in mind I was in the UK - although I spent some time in the US in 85 and 86. Bryant was a star in the USFL - he was in their All Star team and had big stats and 1,000 yard plus seasons every year. He was on my radar screen because of that and also I recall watching a preseaon or early season broadcast when one of the announcers was saying he thought Bryant would have more impact on the NFL than Herschel Walker who was the big splash/steal the Cowboys had made from the USFL.

Gary Clark was more of an unkown to me - came from a small school but was clearly someone with talent. I did not know what to expect from him but don't recall the Post (which was my main source of Redskins news back then) being all that high on him or at least not hyping him

Anyone remember how we came to get Ricky Sanders here - he was drafted in that same supplemental draft by the Patriots in the 1st round according to the table I just looked at but wound up signing with us??

KB was not on really on my radar screen because we had drafted him (ie, at that time, he was our "property" if he wanted to play in the NFL) and we already had Rogers. If we had not picked up Rogers (or Rogers had not been decent in 1985), I think we would have been excited but most of the talking heads I remember thought KB would be pretty much what he was (I do remember some media guys being excited about him in 1988). Interesting that you don't recall the WP hyping Clark. The idea of identifying Clark as the new Charlie Brown was from the WP. Of course a big part of that was that we had just drafted one of the biggest busts in Redskins history and needed someone to be what we thought he would be.

Not sure, but would like to know. Seemed by just emerge out of no where against the vikings late in the 1987 season.