Art Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by Ignatius J. Art, assume coles is a great player for a moment, and that he's considered by the coaching staff to be exactly the kind of hard working player they'd like, if only he wanted to be there... I think if coles comes up and says I don't want to be here, you work out a way to let him go. I don't believe that's the case. I think with the player you've described you would ignore that request. I don't believe THAT request is possible though. Think about it. If Coles is out there doing EVERYTHING he's supposed to be doing, even if he's unhappy, he won't be asking to leave. There are probably Patriots players who are not thrilled to subjugate individual production for the sake of the team, but who do so because they believe in the team. I think the only way to explain why Coles would want to be gone is because he felt he was in an offense that wasn't right for him, PLUS, he was criticized by the staff for messing up and, my guess is, he felt the mess up was the system itself. However, it is possible you have a point on this and the player you describe could be allowed to go as well. I just doubt it would occur, OR that it would happen if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Does Coles have a daughter? remember the story Gibbs related a few weeks ago about having a talk with a WR who had talent... but had some attitude problems.. and Gibbs wanted to stress to him about the difference in being a guy in the league for a few years or having a great career like 12-13 years in the NFL... by talking about the difference in choices his daughter will have in colleges if he got his act together? we all thought it was Rod Gardner.... now I am not so sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 I hope I'm wrong, Art. A beer has calmed me down some. But the last decade has been a disaster. Three, mabye four NFL teams have been worse and they haven't spent nearly the money we have. It's just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by bubba9497 Does Coles have a daughter? remember the story Gibbs related a few weeks ago about having a talk with a WR who had talent... but had some attitude problems.. and Gibbs wanted to stress to him about the difference in being a guy in the league for a few years or having a great career like 12-13 years in the NFL... buy talking about the difference in choices his daughter will have in colleges if he got his act together? we all thought it was Rod Gardner.... now I am not so sure Coles isn't even married is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedbng86 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 actually, i just did a search and found that he does have a daughter, and her name is Amber Marie... lemmie get link real quick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve Coles isn't even married is he? I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter when it comes to making kids. Ask Shawn Kemp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve Coles isn't even married is he? and your point? I do believe he has a kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The X-Factor Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter when it comes to making kids. Ask Shawn Kemp. :laugh: Shawn Kemp, what a character. Never has a guy waste so much talent. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedbng86 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 okay nm i made a mistake heh, not sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by Hooper I hope I'm wrong, Art. A beer has calmed me down some. But the last decade has been a disaster. Three, mabye four NFL teams have been worse and they haven't spent nearly the money we have. It's just sad. I don't know if it's sad, but it is a perfect example of how organizational changes lead to guys who are successful picks or free agents simply not matching up with the new staff. It takes time to build something. We have not had time in recent years, which is why we keep ripping and replacing. This type of move is sad ONLY if Gibbs is gone in a year. If he's here three or four more, there's nothing sad about this at all, as it's what you have to do to build something. When the Pats let Milloy go, everyone thought it was crazy. Heck, the Pats players even seemed to be in something of an open revolt against Belichick. Last week we saw quotes from Milloy about how you can't feed your kids with Super Bowls and how Pats players lose money because of the team concept. Good move Belichick . GOOD teams are WILLING to let STAR players go. Philly over the years with any number of guys. The Pats are a perfect example. We have been a POOR example. All you guys who WANT to emulate the Pats and Eagles, well, you got your wish . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeyeats Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Congratulations on the new baby!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by The X-Factor :laugh: Shawn Kemp, what a character. Never has a guy waste so much talent. :doh: well he sure made use of one of his talents :hump: :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooper Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Congrats on the baby, Art. And I do agree with you in at least area: we should not sign any big-name FA receiver. Cutting Coles to replace him with someone like Jerry Porter makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter when it comes to making kids. Ask Shawn Kemp. :laugh: I guess that sounded stupid. It's late at night people.:laugh: :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 wow, What a way to find out (my) favorite Redskin receiver might get fired. Art, I went from mad, to sad, to happy in 2 1/2 minutes. I can do without him. Sorry to the guy who just bought the jersey though. That sucks. Mike Williams, anyone? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingTaylor22 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Congrats man.. Nice post, good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by The X-Factor :laugh: Shawn Kemp, what a character. Never has a guy waste so much talent. :doh: So true. Last I heard from a co-worker at my old job, he was getting lap dances at some club that was NOT a strip club in the VIP room. Guess he didn't snort all those millions or overspend on his child support loot. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tae Bo Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 "We got a lot of snaps together, trust me," wide receiver Laveranues Coles said. "It might not have been on gameday. But here at Redskin Park, we took our fair share of snaps. It might not show up on film or out there in preseason games, but Coach Gibbs makes it a point to make sure that we're well-prepared. We're not going to have any excuses about not knowing what to do." THE WASHINGTON TIMES 7 September 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 congrats on the tax exemption! so...what's the priority now? finding Redskins with character or winning? The two are not necessarily linked. Coles was routinely extolled as the man with the exemplary attitude. Now we learn otherwise. What the *ell is this team doing and in what time frame? Was it the receivers? Or was it the middle of the O-line? Or was it overly conservative play calling? Or was reluctance to shelve an obviously failing QB? The fact is that it was the defense that made the season. And that D - for all its strengths - still had some weaknesses: most especially lack of a pass rush from the D line. Do we continue to fiddle with the O or lead with our strong suit and create a truly dominant defense? That will be one of the interesting subtexts to this off-season. Do we continue to place max pressure on Coach Williams to carry the team? My guess (hope?): we will surprise folks with some d-line FA signings and go wr/o-line in the draft. More of a take your medicine now approach as wr's, on average, don't do much their first seasons. Is the offense in disarray?: - wideouts want out - middle of the line is porous/undermanned - left tackle won't reduce salary demandds - RB was hurt and unhappy - blocking scheme still not in place to maximize CP's abilities - TE a question mark - QB still learning - downfield game absent This is gonna take longer than one season to fix. We better hope we get lucky as *ell and PR matures - this season - into an upper tier QB capable of pulling victory from defeat; that CP and the blocking scheme start to jive; that stability returns to the O-line following the expected personnel changes; that Joe's off-season clarifies his vision/concept for out maneuvering modern defenses; that the defense continues to provide breathing space fot the offense..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 My only feelings on that line of thinking, is that even before I wouldn't have thought Coles was part of the problem. And that's exactly what the problem has been over the years. Our problems run deeper than we even know. Gibbs has the cojones to fix them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Al, you're still asking the question. Why? Why don't you see clearly where the problem on this team was. It's been evident for some time. The OBVIOUS failing in the middle of the line or at QB, may not have been the obvious thing you saw. It may have been something CAUSED by poor play elsewhere. From the comments by the coaches and the obvious attitude heading into the offseason, it's awfully difficult to keep asking the question of where the problem was when you've had it spelled out to you in terms you can't possibly avoid. Even the conservative play calling makes a WHOLE lot more sense TODAY than it did in October, doesn't it? I mean, if Gibbs couldn't trust his receivers to make the appropriate site adjustments on their routes, he may have done what he ALWAYS did. Adjust, and make them run routes they couldn't mess up. Remember the Cincy game, as an example? On fourth down and four I believe, Brunell drops back. He misses an OBVIOUSLY wide open Coles. He hits Coles and it's a TD. But, he missed Coles wildly. Now, we have NO idea what actually made that play fail. We don't know if Brunell simply made a horrible pass, or if, in fact, Coles was off his mark and Brunell threw to the window he was schooled to throw. We SUSPECT we know given how errant Brunell was. But, then Ramsey came in. We played some tough teams, but, it took Gibbs most of four weeks before he allowed Ramsey to do much of anything down the field. We all thought it was because he was scared to death of Ramsey messing up. Maybe it was. But, now, it appears it was because with a young QB in, prone to mistakes, who was ON the record stating he has a hard time trusting receivers enough to throw the ball before they break, Gibbs needed to build confidence and REMOVE the margin of error in his offense until he felt he could instill it back in. You keep asking the answer you already know. It was the receivers, stupid. Other parts may have had flaw, but, the clearest flaw is the one we're doing the most to reconstruct. It'll likely take some time to get Gibbs the players he really wants to achieve success. But, again, we were 5-11 and 6-10 with the talent of Coles. One ought not tremble about the prospects of winning without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkam Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Art, everything you say makes sense, except for one thought. If Joe was so unhappy w/ the WR play during the year, why didn't he just start Thrash and Jacobs at some point to send the message? I realize that he did say towards the end that he wished he had relied more on JT. But the fact is that he kept starting Coles and Gardner, and now he's throwing 'em overboard. Maybe Joe has just done some real soul-searching since the season ended and decided that this would be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by Art Tomorrow my first child will likely be born. I ate a nice dinner tonight with the family, then left my in-laws to babysit my wife who's on bed rest while I went and played basketball. I got home, had a glass of water and a very cold Martini with three olives. I finished packing the hospital bag, got the comforter out of the dryer, and came into my office to take one last fleeting glance at Extremeskins before my life changed. My last look as a man with no child who's about to be gone for a while. And, what do I see? Coles to be released. I'm writing this here, in a stand alone thread because having read the current 13 page topic, a couple of thoughts came to me. One mentioned, astutely by Zoony, the other not mentioned in that thread, but which has been discussed in other threads. This year we long wondered what was wrong with the Gibbs offense. It just looked so much different than ever before. You never saw anything consistently look good. We know of some problems with Raymer and hit and miss play by Brown. We know of Rasby being released and perhaps our tight ends weren't, early, great blockers. We saw Brunell, and lived to tell about it. And, we have seen comments, especially since the end of the year, that seem to squarely blame the receivers for much of the surrounding problems we saw more clearly. Sacks not because of bad blocking in many cases, but incorrect routes. Incompletions for the same reason. Receivers not where they were supposed to be. In many ways we could ignore this as a REAL problem, because, after all, our starting receivers REMAINED our starting receivers. Though Gibbs CONSISTENLY went out of his way to praise Thrash as a TRUE Redskin who was "always where he's supposed to be," such comments were never really seen as the directed comments they clearly were given the offseason we see shaping up. While I expect Coles will only be released if the team feels it has the position of receiver completely covered and he WON'T be released if we don't feel we will strengthen the position, the potential release of Coles coupled with the allowance for Gardner to seek a trade tells you what Gibbs was saying about a guy like Thrash. He's where he's supposed to be, but he DOES NOT have your talent, Rod and Lav. Your talent with his professionalism ON the field, and everything will take off. This had to be the message. Many here have heard rumors about how unhappy Gardner and Coles were this year. One of the finest portions of Gibbs' return was keeping the team from having an open revolt we saw under Marty despite the unhappiness of the starting receivers, frustration from the starting runner, horrendous play of the starting QB (Brunell) COUPLED with the Gibbs learning curve in getting back into things. But, for yet another season, whole of the offense -- and team -- failed to measure up to the sum of its individual parts. Meanwhile, a funny thing happened defensively. The whole surpassed the collective parts. As Zoony mentioned in another thread, we've long been a team capable of underperforming with good, high performing and even star free agents. Gibbs was able to build a team here last time by getting everyone to buy into the concept of being a "Redskin". While NO ONE says Coles lacks talent or lacks work ethic or lacks desire, there's MORE to playing for Gibbs and being successful with Gibbs than that. There's a desire to be a part of it. It's an amazing thing we can even consider shedding a very fine receiver like Coles. As much of a message cut as Rasby was earlier, this is a thunderous cut in the locker room. You saw a PERFECT quote in the Post by an unnamed player. A player who loves Coles. A player who knows how tough he is. But, a player who stated if he doesn't want to be around, it's best he's not. That's NOT the atmosphere we've had here recently. The INMATES have long run the asylum here. Even under Marty, the players revolted and tuned him out and forced Marty to yield to them. Now, without a heavy hand, Gibbs seems to have connected well enough to get guys to respond to a SHOCKING possibility like this with the ABSOLUTE line that we all should care about right now. Gibbs only wants Redskins. Part of that definition is a player who wants to BE THAT. In the cap era to even CONSIDER a release like this is a tremendous thing. When we were speaking about adding Moss, I said he's a guy who'd improve us greatly, but, I didn't want, because I doubted he had THAT particular character point Gibbs would want to have around. Losing Coles and I know we have diminished talent on this team if it happens. We're WEAKER individually if it happens. But, the TEAM, may improve. If scrap heap players who peppered the defensive lineup most of the year can be where they are supposed to be and perform, then, hell, maybe Freddy Mitchell is a guy we actually could have here instead of Coles and KNOW we are weaker in the matchup while knowing at the same time we are BETTER in the equation. Coles, McCants, Gardner. Two starters and a guy who made us all dream big appear to be guys Gibbs feels he can't win with. You don't let Coles go if you don't feel you can win with him. And, as fine a player as Coles IS, we were 5-11 and 6-10 with him. He may not have fit HERE like he could elsewhere. If our record with him is what it has been, I don't fear the future without him, even while knowing I can't look at the receiver position and know we have a talented individual player capable of being a top player. When we've all wondered what was wrong with the offense this year, now, with a glaring divination, we know it was the receivers stupid. I hurt at the thought of a hard-working guy like Coles leaving. I really do. But, when I see comments from a number of people in the initial thread that our organization is a joke for considering a move like this, I have to say, for maybe the first time in 14 years, we're not a joke, because, we can consider a move like this. We finally have the STRENGTH of conviction leading us that ALLOWS a shocking, powerful, scary move like this to even be contemplated. Lavar Arrington saw the defense perform without him this year. But, the charges of the coaching staff to the receivers about not being where they were supposed to be so often can often be heard levied at Arrington. Arrington SAW Marshall simply do his job and the defense did well. That, alone, might have inspired Arrington to emulate Marshall next year and play a rigid game, devoted to his assignments. But, now that he sees a top starter like Coles being possibly allowed to depart for doing something HE has long been associated with, he knows there is no safety in simply being a dynamic player. It takes stones to even consider letting Coles go, whether we ultimately do it or not. For the first time in years, our organization will do something that is in the best interests of the organization, even if that is FELT -- rightly or wrongly -- to be releasing a player who is clearly our top receiver. I think with this article, the joke we may have been stopped being so funny. And that may bring the biggest smile of all. Fantastic post! Congradulations! Hope you have a very healthy baby. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Originally posted by jkam Art, everything you say makes sense, except for one thought. If Joe was so unhappy w/ the WR play during the year, why didn't he just start Thrash and Jacobs at some point to send the message? I realize that he did say towards the end that he wished he had relied more on JT. But the fact is that he kept starting Coles and Gardner, and now he's throwing 'em overboard. Maybe Joe has just done some real soul-searching since the season ended and decided that this would be the way to go. I touched on that in my post. When we were all wondering what the problem was with the offense, we were looking all around. We were able to ignore the receivers being the problem, even as they appeared to be at least part of it, because the top guys kept being the top guys. I recall defending Gardner in a thread suggesting Gibbs wouldn't start him over every other receiver if he didn't feel Gardner provided what he needed to have. I'll say the same thing now about Coles. I doubt the problems with the receivers were rampant errors. Just as Lavar's freelancing wasn't rampant. It just hurt us at times that REALLY hurt us. Like Trotter to be honest. Remember against the Jets to open the year two years ago, Trotter essentially won the game by doing his own thing, playing downhill and stuffing a run play in the backfield. That was freelancing that helped us. But, we only remember the two or three HUGE freelancing plays that killed us. I imagine comments about the receivers not being where they were supposed to be wasn't something we noticed, but he coaches obviously did. Starting the two all year was a tribute to their overall talent. Where Thrash was where he was supposed to be, he wasn't talented enough to provide a threat that either Gardner or Coles were. I imagine Gibbs really hoped at some point to ride the wild horse until he tamed it and the receivers never got tamed. The clarity by which we now must grasp the core problem on offense being the receivers should be obvious to us all. We saw errors elsewhere because they are obvious to our eyes. You'd not notice the mistakes the receivers might make other than dropped balls. But, allowing one of your starters to seek a trade while telling your TOP receiver you'll release him speaks volumes for where the staff places the blame for most of last season's dysfunctions on offense. Other problems will sort themselves out for the most part. Jansen will return providing strength at one tackle spot, while giving us great depth with Brown. Another year of seasoning for Molinaro and Wilson provides further depth. Doing NOTHING helps the offensive line. Though people seem to think we need a tight end, the fact is, Royal seemed a protypical Gibbs tight end. A STRONG blocker and an occasional threat in the passing game. Cooley is the pass catching threat. We might improve our blocking, but it's unlikely we have to improve our threat here. Portis will be better a second year in a growing system having proven he can be a workhorse type back while not losing his explosiveness that makes him a special player. Ramsey is a question because he's yet to play a full year well. But, only time will answer that question. The only question that can't be answered with time or from within was the failings in receivers, which is why you're seeing what you're seeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Art the other issue was the skins didn't feel coles was a #1 anymore with his injury according to Maske this morning. (sorry if you already pointed this out) The one player this is going to impact the most is Ramsey I think. If he doesn't perform next year, will he be back?? And on top of it all, don't you have other matters to worry about now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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