Liberal confessional here.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Bufford

please, going by the name of the missions. How about going by the words of our leaders before we attacked? hmmmm?

You're going to say with a straight face that America's Security was #2 when we went into Iraq? Please do it.........please say that.

What I am saying is that the claims that we were going to war exclusively for WMD's are false.

There was never a point in time that I personally felt that we were only going for wmd's, but that they were one piece of the overall issue that Iraq was a dangerous country to leave as is. I also assumed that strategic reasons that I can't even fathom were used.

The whole WMD only argument is a made up claim by the ABB folks.

I definitely think that your #1 and #2 are intertwined and not exclusive as rationale for war.

Stop thinking so black and white that Iraq was only about WMD's when it's just not true.

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by Art

Because we have protected ourselves. Perhaps the worst aspect to liberal thinking in this is that somehow what's happening in Iraq accomplishes everything BUT protecting the U.S. It's just a strange thing you guys don't seem to get.

Look Art, I just don't want to debate with a Mod on non-football topic. After the wrong thing I said last time around, I don't think its a good idea for people who are moderating boards to be calling out people with no authority and getting all into the nitty-gritty of these topics. Especially when people including yourself and myself can take them very personally. You know things get heated and things are said...... and at the end of the day. Even if the average poster is correct. He/she gets squashed down.

So, no offense...... but I'll be stupid and bite when others are doing it. But I can't with you. It never ends pretty.

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas

What I am saying is that the claims that we were going to war exclusively for WMD's are false.

There was never a point in time that I personally felt that we were only going for wmd's, but that they were one piece of the overall issue that Iraq was a dangerous country to leave as is. I also assumed that strategic reasons that I can't even fathom were used.

The whole WMD only argument is a made up claim by the ABB folks.

I definitely think that your #1 and #2 are intertwined and not exclusive as rationale for war.

Stop thinking so black and white that Iraq was only about WMD's when it's just not true.

fair enough. You are right. Liberating them was mention. But now that's the big story because the old main topic didn't turn out to be right. That's all.

[Thiebear]

OK for all the people that think 1500 troops was too many, or for others just 1 soldier was too many..

Give us your idea on how we could have gotten this done better with such a large concentration of terrorists?

Again: would you rather it be civilians or troops sittin in the bunks or eating chow on a routine training mission?

Suspected al-Qaeda Terrorist Acts

1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); six killed.

1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.

1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.

1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.

2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.

2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.

2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.

2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.

2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.

2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.

2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing one.

2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.

2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.

2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2003 (May): Four bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.

2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.

2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound, killing 17.

2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.

2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.

2004 (March): Ten terrorists bombs exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 202 and injuring more than 1,400.

2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.

2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed nine.

2004 (Dec.): Terrorists enter the U.S. Consulate in Jiddah, Saudi Arabia, killing nine (including 4 attackers).

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Bufford

fair enough. You are right. Liberating them was mention. But now that's the big story because the old main topic didn't turn out to be right. That's all.

I never really considered WMD's as the "big story" even back then.

This is the reason why I get so confused and frustrated over claims like this.

I think the media definitely blew up the WMD's story in error, but I never recall that being primary rationale over liberation for the oppressed Iraqi people.

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas

I never really considered WMD's as the "big story" even back then.

This is the reason why I get so confused and frustrated over claims like this.

I think the media definitely blew up the WMD's story in error, but I never recall that being primary rationale over liberation for the oppressed Iraqi people.

I think you got that reversed. The Media bit at the WMD story and didn't do enough research and fack checking.

As far as what was the big story for you. I'll take your word and not go back, digging through old posts. But I can promise you there were folks there that were WMD 24/7 when this started. Some claiming to have inside sources and telling us when they'd be found.

So..... if you've been steady the whole time. You're in the minority.

[Art]

Originally posted by Bufford

Look Art, I just don't want to debate with a Mod on non-football topic. After the wrong thing I said last time around, I don't think its a good idea for people who are moderating boards to be calling out people with no authority and getting all into the nitty-gritty of these topics. Especially when people including yourself and myself can take them very personally. You know things get heated and things are said...... and at the end of the day. Even if the average poster is correct. He/she gets squashed down.

So, no offense...... but I'll be stupid and bite when others are doing it. But I can't with you. It never ends pretty.

You'd have been better off debating .

[@DCGoldPants]

Originally posted by Art

You'd have been better off debating .

you know what I mean and why I'm saying this. Its a check for myself because I enjoy here too much.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Bufford

I think you got that reversed. The Media bit at the WMD story and didn't do enough research and fack checking.

As far as what was the big story for you. I'll take your word and not go back, digging through old posts. But I can promise you there were folks there that were WMD 24/7 when this started. Some claiming to have inside sources and telling us when they'd be found.

So..... if you've been steady the whole time. You're in the minority.

Please don't take my post as saying that I didnt believe they had WMD's, I definitely did, and still do think that fact.

Why else would Sadaam have risked war and death by not cooperating nor showing where and how the weapons we 100% knew about were?

Anyway, I didnt feel that WMD's were the exclusive, nor even the primary reason. I'd bet that most of those seen as "Hawks" here felt roughly the same.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Bufford

As far as what was the big story for you. I'll take your word and not go back, digging through old posts. But I can promise you there were folks there that were WMD 24/7 when this started. Some claiming to have inside sources and telling us when they'd be found.

+1 to that...

The WMD claims are what had me supporting the war briefly. If Iraq was truly a threat to us, that's one thing, but to have a humanitarian war is another issue for me. I didn't support Clinton's efforts either.

BTW, good for the Iraqi people if they are getting what they want. Hopefully, it doesn't end up being a puppet admin or future dictatorship.

[Art]

Originally posted by Bufford

you know what I mean and why I'm saying this. Its a check for myself because I enjoy here too much.

Bufford,

I actually DON'T know what you're saying. In my time here THREE people who have engaged in a debate with me have had action taken against them, by me. Even Madder, WebNarc and you. Yours being the briefest of the actions and taken NOT for the debate, but because you went further than you should in a way that was clearly outlined to you.

That YOU feel YOU can't control yourself is fine. But that's not my flaw. I'm very encouraged when a thoughtful, meaningful debate is engaged in. But, as I tried to tell you before. In such threads it is your duty to actually engage those speaking with you if you're bothering to speak. It's mine too, so it's sometimes hard to get involved in such threads knowing they can go a while .

You don't get to pick and choose. You either talk or you don't. It's always been that way, and if you feel you can't control yourself, then you probably should be cautious and simply not talk. However, you've only gone too far ONCE that I know of and left no choice in the matter.

[jpillian]

Originally posted by Bufford

please, going by the name of the missions. How about going by the words of our leaders before we attacked? hmmmm?

You're going to say with a straight face that America's Security was #2 when we went into Iraq? Please do it.........please say that.

Bufford,

The reason why the "Freedom" bit is now the big story, is because that's the only part of the mission that has been left unfulfilled.

We deposed Saddam. We have not found any WMD. Self-determination is the only real big piece of our motivations that has not been fulfilled.

Now, which one of those goals was an un-worthy one?

[jpillian]

On a side note, the "at what cost" argument absolutely does not hold water.

But before I go on, let's get a show of hands of who (outside of Chopper Dave -- I know you don't believe it was worth it), doesn't believe that OIF was: 1) worth the cost to the US in manpower/$$$; and 2)the next logical, strategic choice in the war on terror.

Don't want to "lump" folks together here, now do I?

[Predicto]

I am happy for the Iraqi people. I hope it works out for them.

I am proud of our brave and hardworking servicemen.

Nevertheless, I still do not like my government misleading me, as I am convinced they did. I still do not think that invading Iraq was the next logical step in a war on fundamental Islamic terrorism. I am concerned that we have created more enemies for ourselves than we have destroyed, and spent a whole lot of cash and lives. I also think we should have finished up in Afganistan first as an absolute minimum before taking on new tasks.

That being said, I hope that we succeed in Iraq now that we are there. I am not one who takes perverse pleasure out of "being right."

[portisizzle]

Originally posted by Predicto

I am happy for the Iraqi people. I hope it works out for them.

I am proud of our brave and hardworking servicemen.

Nevertheless, I still do not like my government misleading me, as I am convinced they did. I still do not think that invading Iraq was the next logical step in a war on fundamental Islamic terrorism. I am concerned that we have created more enemies for ourselves than we have destroyed, and spent a whole lot of cash and lives. I also think we should have finished up in Afganistan first as an absolute minimum before taking on new tasks.

That being said, I hope that we succeed in Iraq now that we are there. I am not one who takes perverse pleasure out of "being right."

If we created enemies by liberating Iraq, then they were not our friends in the first place.

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by Bufford

I think you got that reversed. The Media bit at the WMD story and didn't do enough research and fack checking.

As far as what was the big story for you. I'll take your word and not go back, digging through old posts. But I can promise you there were folks there that were WMD 24/7 when this started. Some claiming to have inside sources and telling us when they'd be found.

So..... if you've been steady the whole time. You're in the minority.

Do the check on me: Im one of the most vocal...

You'll see it as one of my 5 reasons...

[Predicto]

Originally posted by portisizzle

If we created enemies by liberating Iraq, then they were not our friends in the first place.

I do not think it is that simple. We have to be aware of how we are perceived in the Middle East. From their perspective, it was an invasion, not a liberation. For a lot of people, we are modern day Crusaders, Christian invaders, and they suspect that we are not there to liberate anyone but only to secure oil supplies, or worse, to crush Islam in general. Those perceptions may change if a truly free and independent Iraq develops out of this, and I hope it does.

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by Predicto

I do not think it is that simple. We have to be aware of how we are perceived in the Middle East. From their perspective, it was an invasion, not a liberation. For a lot of people, we are modern day Crusaders, Christian invaders, and they suspect that we are not there to liberate anyone but only to secure oil supplies, or worse, to crush Islam in general. Those perceptions may change if a truly free and independent Iraq develops out of this, and I hope it does.

I understand trying to be friendly to those around you but that above qoute is just crazy.

Their governments feed them propaganda lies about why we are there, what we are doing and how it is going.. See Jordan, they thought we lost the 1st war for quite a while... Other countries were stunned because we won in a matter of days due to them being told everything was going badly for the Zionists...

Then base our actions on said lies due to perception???

If it were true that we are there to just kill/plunder and convert to christianity than you are absolutely correct... if its to free the people and leave when they get control of their gov. then see comment a.

[Predicto]

I do not think my comment was crazy at all. I do not think the rest of the world necessarily perceives us as selfless and altruistic as we perceive ourselves, and it is foolish of us not to recognize that and take it into account when we decide whether to send in our troops.

[E-Dog Night]

I'll apologize for nothing. The George Bush administration is wrong, this war is wrong, and it doesn't make a bit of difference that the elections went off without violence.

Why does this change the fact that we've spent $400 billion already on this war? Why does it change the fact that we went there for the wrong reasons? Why does it change the fact that Halliburton and the Cheney-led oil interests stand to make billions off this war, and that's the real reason why 1,000+ US soldiers are dead?

It doesn't change any of that. This election is just a distraction to divert attention for the real reasons we are there so we can all feel good about what we've done.

Apologize? Don't think so. If anyone is due an apology, it's the rest of the world for this administration. Sorry world, there are at least 56 million of us Americans who loathe George Bush just as much as you do.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'll apologize for nothing. The George Bush administration is wrong, this war is wrong, and it doesn't make a bit of difference that the elections went off without violence.

Why does this change the fact that we've spent $400 billion already on this war? Why does it change the fact that we went there for the wrong reasons? Why does it change the fact that Halliburton and the Cheney-led oil interests stand to make billions off this war, and that's the real reason why 1,000+ US soldiers are dead?

It doesn't change any of that. This election is just a distraction to divert attention for the real reasons we are there so we can all feel good about what we've done.

Apologize? Don't think so. If anyone is due an apology, it's the rest of the world for this administration. Sorry world, there are at least 56 million of us Americans who loathe George Bush just as much as you do.

Does anyone smell that?

It's moonbat droppings at the tailgate.

[portisizzle]

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'll apologize for nothing. The George Bush administration is wrong, this war is wrong, and it doesn't make a bit of difference that the elections went off without violence.

Why does this change the fact that we've spent $400 billion already on this war? Why does it change the fact that we went there for the wrong reasons? Why does it change the fact that Halliburton and the Cheney-led oil interests stand to make billions off this war, and that's the real reason why 1,000+ US soldiers are dead?

It doesn't change any of that. This election is just a distraction to divert attention for the real reasons we are there so we can all feel good about what we've done.

Apologize? Don't think so. If anyone is due an apology, it's the rest of the world for this administration. Sorry world, there are at least 56 million of us Americans who loathe George Bush just as much as you do.

Oh, its just IBleedBurgandyandGold..........

BYW, where is Jackson Ward?

[The Evil Genius]

Take the other MODs advice - don't feed the troll.

Odd though that this time the troll was a mod.

But hey - thats his game.

And in case that MOD questions what I mean - I refer him to #10 on this link - http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/announcement.php?s=&forumid=26

Of course, he will simply hide behind this being a good-will gesture - but we all know (including him) what the intent of that post is - to incite.

[Art]

Originally posted by T.E.G.

Take the other MODs advice - don't feed the troll.

Odd though that this time the troll was a mod.

But hey - thats his game.

Not at all a troll. But, clearly someone capable of speaking to a conversation without mewling wimpers. You should be more like me for if we were more like you, the world would be unable to produce enough tissue.

I saw your edit and will respond to it.

The purpose of this thread was to give liberals an opportunity to apologize for their behavior to date and jump on board for the big win. That you chose to be incited is not my problem. Know the difference.

That I surmised people would be incited may also have been at play. Which is what makes it so fun.

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'll apologize for nothing. The George Bush administration is wrong, this war is wrong, and it doesn't make a bit of difference that the elections went off without violence.

Why does this change the fact that we've spent $400 billion already on this war? Why does it change the fact that we went there for the wrong reasons? Why does it change the fact that Halliburton and the Cheney-led oil interests stand to make billions off this war, and that's the real reason why 1,000+ US soldiers are dead?

It doesn't change any of that. This election is just a distraction to divert attention for the real reasons we are there so we can all feel good about what we've done.

Apologize? Don't think so. If anyone is due an apology, it's the rest of the world for this administration. Sorry world, there are at least 56 million of us Americans who loathe George Bush just as much as you do.

Michael Moore, is that you? :bong: :ciao: