a religion of hate?

[Stu]

Originally posted by GSF

It seem to me there is some sort of strange dynamic between Catholitism and Homo-sexuality. After reading that article and this thread, I'm just left with questions.

Why is it that priests caught with young boys are almost always Catholic? Why is the Catholic Church so vocally opposed to homo-sexuality when it struggles with it amongst its leaders? Why would any gay person want to be an active member of the Catholic Church knowing how they are looked upon by the leaders of the Church?

Do not read this as defending the acts of the guilty priests, but statistcally speaking the amount of pedophilia in the priest community is, as a percentage, lower than the public at large. I cannot find the actual study to present here but I did happen upon it recently (so you will have to take it or leave it as you see fit). It is however much more egregious considering the trust put into a priest. But I have scene plenty of "scandal" involving other religious leaders. But why is this so shocking? They are only human just like the rest of the world. Just like the leaders throughout the Bible (David, Solomon, Moses, etc) they too have faults.

As far as how Church leaders look upon homosexuals, according to the Catholic faith being a homosexual or having those tendencies are not in themselves sinful. Only the acts are. A heterosexual male may become interested in a revealing "skirt-line" but doesn't have to act upon it. If he does, he has sinned just as much as an individual committing a homosexula act. It is only when acted upon or when such thoughts control you that it becomes a sin. The difference comes in whether one confesses AND REPENTS. Embracing the sinful lifestyle publicly would not meet the "repents" requirement.

[Kilmer17]

"FREE WILL!!! IT's a B!TCH!

[TheKurp]

According to Catholics there are two kinds of sin; mortal and venial.

Catholics believe that homosexuality is a mortal sin. It is also a mortal sin to receive holy communion while in a state of mortal sin. In other words, one may not receive communion until they've confessed their mortal sin.

If a person were to tell a priest that they had a mortal sin on their soul, that priest would undoubtedly refuse to offer the sacrament of holy communion to that person until such time that person went to confession.

The question here is, does wearing a sash in support of gays constitute a mortal sin? Is simply being gay a mortal sin or does one have to participate in homosexual sex to be quilty of mortal sin? Is it a mortal sin for a heterosexual to support gay rights?

Art,

A number of animals in the wild have distinct preferences, otherwise known as traits, that make another animal of the same phenotype more or less attractive. Wolves come to mind. Females tend to only mate with the dominant or alpha males. Who taught them this? Or is this instinctive behavior? Homosexuality has been well-documented in the wild in almost every type of species. Are these animals simply seeking sexual relief or are they part of nature's system of balancing the species' population?

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by GoSkins561

I find that people that are considered "Agnostic" and that do not have any religous beliefs tend to favor any religion as long as it is not Christianity. I guess it is also okay to strap bombs on your chest and not allow women to show thier faces in public or get educated. Christians and other religions have the right to believe as they wish and as the history of the religion asks them to. If they do not want gay people in church why shoud they allow it, talk about the seperation of church and state.

You are correct that many atheists and agnostics favor religions that aren't CHristianity. I assume it's because our experience is largely with Christianity but if I may speak for many agnostics--that is a phase of rebellion. When an agnostic truly stops becoming "anti" and becomes more objective, most of us relax, appreciate the good Christianity has brought and realize that there are worse alternatives, webnarc's initial post not withstanding.

One of my closest friends has undergone a similar transformation as I have. We no longer

react to Christianity. We merely discuss and debate all religions.

It's quite strange really.

Unfortunately, many atheists and secularists(who may or may not be theists) never grow up.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Originally posted by TheKurp

According to Catholics there are two kinds of sin; mortal and venial.

Catholics believe that homosexuality is a mortal sin. It is also a mortal sin to receive holy communion while in a state of mortal sin. In other words, one may not receive communion until they've confessed their mortal sin.

If a person were to tell a priest that they had a mortal sin on their soul, that priest would undoubtedly refuse to offer the sacrament of holy communion to that person until such time that person went to confession.

The question here is, does wearing a sash in support of gays constitute a mortal sin? Is simply being gay a mortal sin or does one have to participate in homosexual sex to be quilty of mortal sin? Is it a mortal sin for a heterosexual to support gay rights?

Art,

A number of animals in the wild have distinct preferences, otherwise known as traits, that make another animal of the same phenotype more or less attractive. Wolves come to mind. Females tend to only mate with the dominant or alpha males. Who taught them this? Or is this instinctive behavior? Homosexuality has been well-documented in the wild in almost every type of species. Are these animals simply seeking sexual relief or are they part of nature's system of balancing the species' population?

A number of animals in the wild have distinct preferences, otherwise known as traits, that make another animal of the same phenotype more or less attractive. Wolves come to mind. Females tend to only mate with the dominant or alpha males. Who taught them this? Or is this instinctive behavior? Homosexuality has been well-documented in the wild in almost every type of species. Are these animals simply seeking sexual relief or are they part of nature's system of balancing the species' population? [/b]

Do you have any proof of homosexexual relationship's in the animal kingdom?

[Thiebear]

You never see two male Lions hangin out as spouses

You never see two male Monkey hangin out as spouses

They may get their freak on to show dominance but i have yet to see any life-mates of the same sex...

I think he means their Bi

My female neutered short legged beagle humps the Scooby Pillow but I think that is dominance also...

(edit: who are you to say what is right between my dog and the scooby pillow, I'm taking them to Mass. tomorrow.. If Rosie doesnt support me she's a hypocrit...)

[TheKurp]

Originally posted by offiss

Do you have any proof of homosexexual relationship's in the animal kingdom?

There are a number of papers, articles, and books written on the subject. A simple Google search on "animals" + "homosexuality" will point you in the right direction.

While you're seeking "Proof" that homosexuality does exist in the animal kingdom, keep in mind that while there might be other explainations for the behavior characteristic of human homosexuality, you'll need to prove the opposite is true if you conclude that sex between same sex humans is a learned behavior. In other words, point me in the direction that empirically states that homosexual relationships don't exist in the wild.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Thiebear

You never see two male Lions hangin out as spouses

You never see two male Monkey hangin out as spouses

How hard are you looking?

This article appeared in Time. I don't have a link, as it's been taken off their archives.

EDIT: You now have to pay for it. Here's the link to a preview: http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101990426-23309,00.html

______

The Gay Side of Nature

Even as moralists and activists continue to debate homosexuality, many

species casually practice it

BY JEFFREY KLUGER

Giraffes do it, goats do it, birds and bonobos and dolphins do it. Humans

beings--a lot of them anyway--like to do it too, but of all the planet's

species, they're the only ones who are oppressed when they try.

What humans share with so many other animals, it now appears, is

freewheeling homosexuality. For centuries opponents of gay rights have

seen same-gender sex as a uniquely human phenomenon, one of the many ways

our famously corruptible species flouts the laws of nature. But nature's

morality, it seems, may be remarkably flexible, at least if the new book

Biological Exuberance (St. Martin's Press), by linguist and cognitive

scientist Bruce Bagemihl, is to be believed. According to Bagemihl, the

animal kingdom is a more sexually complex place than most people know--one

where couplings routinely take place not just between male-female pairs

but also between male-male and female-female ones. What's more, same-sex

partners don't meet merely for brief encounters, but may form long-term

bonds, sometimes mating for years or even for life.

Bagemihl's ideas have caused a stir in the higher, human community,

especially among scientists who find it simplistic to equate any animal

behavior with human behavior. But Bagemihl stands behind the findings,

arguing that if homosexuality comes naturally to other creatures, perhaps

it's time to quit getting into such a lather over the fact that it comes

naturally to humans too. "Animal sexuality is more complex than we

imagined," says Bagemihl. "That diversity is part of human heritage."

For a love that long dared not speak its name, animal homosexuality is

astonishingly common. Scouring zoological journals and conducting

extensive interviews with scientists, Bagemihl found same-sex pairings

documented in more than 450 different species. In a world teeming with

more than 1 million species, that may not seem like much. Animals,

however, can be surprisingly prim about when and under whose prying eye

they engage in sexual activity; as few as 2,000 species have thus been

observed closely enough to reveal their full range of coupling behavior.

Within such a small sampling, 450 represents more than 20%.

That 20% may spend its time lustily or quite tenderly. Among bonobos, a

chimplike ape, homosexual pairings account for as much as 50% of all

sexual activity. Females especially engage in repeated acts of same-sex

sex, spending far more than the 12 or so seconds the whole transaction can

take when a randy male is involved. Male giraffes practice necking--

literally--in a very big way, entwining their long bodies until both

partners become sexually aroused. Heterosexual and homosexual dolphin

pairs engage in face-to-face sexual encounters that look altogether human.

Animals as diverse as elephants and rodents practice same-sex mounting,

and macaques raise that affection ante further, often kissing while

assuming a coital position. Same-gender sexual activity, says Bagemihl,

"encompasses a wide range of forms."

What struck Bagemihl most is those forms that go beyond mere sexual

gratification. Humboldt penguins may have homosexual unions that last six

years; male greylag geese may stay paired for 15 years--a lifetime

commitment when you've got the lifespan of a goose. Bears and some other

mammals may bring their young into homosexual unions, raising them with

their same-sex partner just as they would with a member of the opposite

sex.

But witnessing same-sex activity and understanding it are two different

things, and some experts believe observers like Bagemihl are misreading

the evidence. In species that lack sophisticated language--which is to say

all species but ours--sex serves many nonsexual purposes, including

establishing alliances and appeasing enemies, all things animals must do

with members of both sexes. "Sexuality helps animals maneuver around each

other before making real contact," says Martin Daly, an evolutionary

psychologist at McMaster University in Ontario. "Putting all that into a

homosexual category seems simplistic."

Even if some animals do engage in homosexual activity purely for pleasure,

their behavior still serves as an incomplete model--and an incomplete

explanation--for human behavior. "In our society homosexuality means a

principal or exclusive orientation," says psychology professor Frans de

Waal of the Yerkes Primate Center in Atlanta. "Among animals it's just

nonreproductive sexual behavior."

Whether any of this turns out to be good for the gay and lesbian community

is unclear. While the new findings seem to support the idea that

homosexuality is merely a natural form of sexual expression, Bagemihl

believes such political questions may be beside the point. "We shouldn't

have to look to the animal world to see what's normal or ethical," he

says. Indeed, when it comes to answering those questions, Mother Nature

seems to be keeping an open mind.

[Destino]

Originally posted by G-Train

Equal treatment under the LAW, Destino. To ask the government to intervene

Again with this sh*t. WHERE THE HELL HAVE I ASKED THE GOVERNMENT TO FORCE THE CHURCH TO DO ANYTHING????????????????

I am saying that I, as in me the person, won't support this latest idiocy in the church. I support equal treatment under the government, and if that pisses off the church, then they can kiss my @ss.

[phanatic]

Originally posted by Destino

Equal treatment in the eyes of the law, bonehead. Try to keep up. The first comment was not demanding anything of the church.

What is the thread title? Why are you trying to twist your logic, yet again? The last time I checked, gays DON'T have equal treatment in the eyes of the law. Beating up a gay person can now be misconstured as a hate crime. Looks like your premise is flawed, yet again!

Your problem, and liberals like you, seek to tear down the walls of every religous group and private institution all in the name of "equal treatment". This, my boneheaded friend, is where your ability to be a rational human being ends and your convoluted liberal ideologies take over. You see, gays enjoy every last right that a straight individual has, and then some. Where in our laws does it state that gays are not entitled to be cast out by the church? Where does it state that a private club does not have the right to disallow gays from their membership?

Next up, pedophiles. I wonder what flag they'll be flying over Disney?

[Ancalagon the Black]

Your problem, and liberals like you, seek to tear down the walls of every religous group and private institution all in the name of "equal treatment".

Sorry to interrupt your eloquent denunciation of liberals, but please find me where Destino said there should be a law against the Catholic Church doing what it wants in this case.

I believe he's making a moral argument.

[Destino]

Originally posted by phanatic

What is the thread title?

"a religion of hate?"

Originally posted by phanatic

Your problem, and liberals like you, seek to tear down the walls of every religous group and private institution all in the name of "equal treatment".

I'm growing tired of your dishonesty. I have not asked to tear down anything, I have stated MY SUPPORT won't go to fools that seek to force me to support their political views in order to take communion.

Originally posted by phanatic

Next up, pedophiles. I wonder what flag they'll be flying over Disney?

Hey bigot, homosexuality is natural and without victim. Relating it pedophilia is like saying sex is the same as rape.

[Commander PK]

The Catholic Church believes that it is immoral to be a practicing homosexual. The Catholic Church has followed this believe for hundreds of years. Whether homosexuality is immoral or not, don't expect to be given communion when you put them on the spot. That kind of blatant "calling out" will only push the church away from acceptance.

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by Destino

I'm growing tired of your dishonesty. I have not asked to tear down anything, I have stated MY SUPPORT won't go to fools that seek to force me to support their political views in order to take communion.

But Destino, this isn't their "Political Views." This is one of the Church's core believes, and wrong or not, asking them to change their minds about it on the spot is a pretty tall order, and that's what these protesters did. They "called" them out, and surprise, they didn't like what happened.

[Commander PK]

In addition, the Sacrament of Eucharist (communion) should not be made into a "look at me" political forum. For believers, it is a sacred event that should be devoid of any and all political debate. These people picked the wrong forum to protest in, and they got burned for it.

[phanatic]

Hey bigot, homosexuality is natural and without victim. Relating it pedophilia is like saying sex is the same as rape.

That depends on what country or culture is in question. Be careful who you call a bigot, you effin moron. Lately, you've done nothing but verbally attack those who oppose your ideologies. Seems to me your losing ground. I suggest you tone down before you find yourself on a vacation from this forum. Being called a bigot is no small matter. If you were to call me that in person it would be the last time you ever uttered such garbage again. Thats HOW SERIOUSLY I take this matter. You have definitely insulted me much worse than you would understand. Keep up the good work, you're only proving my point. Welcome to the ranks of the reactionists.

[Destino]

Originally posted by G-Train

The Catholic Church believes that it is immoral to be a practicing homosexual. The Catholic Church has followed this believe for hundreds of years. Whether homosexuality is immoral or not, don't expect to be given communion when you put them on the spot. That kind of blatant "calling out" will only push the church away from acceptance.

You don’t have to tell me what the church believes, I’m Catholic I know. Also I don’t expect to be given communion; I expect god’s law to be followed and to have the decision whether to take communion left to me. The church is not on earth to decide who is close to god, they are here to spread his teachings through good works.

Originally posted by G-Train

But Destino, this isn't their "Political Views." This is one of the Church's core believes, and wrong or not, asking them to change their minds about it on the spot is a pretty tall order, and that's what these protesters did. They "called" them out, and surprise, they didn't like what happened.

I used to agree with you on this. Until they started denying communion to those that support left wing political issues but not right wing issues, like the death penalty which the catholic church has opposed as long as abortion. Let it also be known that this war was NOT given the “just war” tag needed for the church to support anything related to it…..yet it goes unmentioned in American Churches even though the pope and the Vatican have spoken out against it many times.

The American Cardinals and Bishops have sold themselves out like cheap whores. Were it up to me the church would have stayed out of the political realm or at least fought for all it’s issues like it used to. Now it’s just trying to jump on the extremist religious right bandwagon .

Originally posted by G-Train

In addition, the Sacrament of Eucharist (communion) should not be made into a "look at me" political forum. For believers, it is a sacred event that should be devoid of any and all political debate. These people picked the wrong forum to protest in, and they got burned for it.

I hope your Catholic because otherwise you shouldn’t be preaching to me about how scared communion is. I’d like to add that “these people” didn’t pick this fight, the American Catholic Church and it’s statement that they and only they decide who is worthy did. Screw them.

[Destino]

Originally posted by phanatic

That depends on what country or culture is in question.

The hell it does. Two ADULTS can do as they wish, people may not like it but there is no victim. Comparing it to raping children is disgusting.

BTW - being that you stated I'm losing to you on this issue, I'm still waiting for you to show me where I asked for government intervention in relation to the Catholic church. Try backing your statements up.

Originally posted by phanatic

If you were to call me that in person it would be the last time you ever uttered such garbage again. Thats HOW SERIOUSLY I take this matter. You have definitely insulted me much worse than you would understand. Keep up the good work, you're only proving my point. Welcome to the ranks of the reactionists.

Do you think because you are a conservative that you’re some kind of tough guy? Save your empty threats for someone else. If you are so sensitive to the word bigot then I suggest you stop equating homosexuality and pedophilia because if it quacks like a duck…….

If I'm wrong sorry, but when someone paints an entire group with such a hateful comment.....

[Commander PK]

Originally posted by Destino

I hope your Catholic because otherwise you shouldn’t be preaching to me about how scared communion is. I’d like to add that “these people” didn’t pick this fight, the American Catholic Church and it’s statement that they and only they decide who is worthy did. Screw them.

Yes, I was raised Catholic, although, admittedly, I'm not exactly a practicing Catholic. I have struggled with my faith for reasons, other than what we are arguing about here. However, I was an alter boy, and attended catechism for 8 years. If you are Catholic, which you claim to be, and you can't see the hypocrisy in allowing homosexuals, and their supporters to receive the Eucharist, the Catholic Church's most sacred Sacrament. When it's very beliefs, condemn the act of homosexuality as a mortal sin, then there is nothing I can say to you here and now that will make any difference. The Catholic church states that in order to receive communion, you must repent your sins, which includes homosexuality. Apparently, the Cardinal didn't think it was appropriate for people who are advocating homosexuality to receive communion either. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it. I am saying that it's the Catholic Church's right to deny communion to whoever, they dam well please, and if that includes homsexuals, and their supporters than that is their constitutionally given right! Did you know Destino, that the Catholic church also denies giving communion to any christian who attends mass, that is not Catholic. You must be a Catholic to receive Communion in a Catholic church.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Originally posted by Thiebear

You never see two male Lions hangin out as spouses

You never see two male Monkey hangin out as spouses

They may get their freak on to show dominance but i have yet to see any life-mates of the same sex...

I think he means their Bi

My female neutered short legged beagle humps the Scooby Pillow but I think that is dominance also...

(edit: who are you to say what is right between my dog and the scooby pillow, I'm taking them to Mass. tomorrow.. If Rosie doesnt support me she's a hypocrit...)

What about a male monkey, with a male lion, please help me to understand.:monkees: :yikes:

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Giraffes do it, goats do it, birds and bonobos and dolphins do it. Humans

They forgot the biggest homosexual's to ever walk the planet, the dinasaur's, maybe that's why their extinct?

[GSF]

Who gets to set the scale of deviancy Art? The church? The government? There are many people in this world, and in this country who would consider taking your wife from behind, or any recreational sex whatsoever, deviant. And if your wife gives you some oral service before you do her doggie style, well that would be even more deviant to many. Why is your level of deviancy OK and homo sexuality not? Deviancy to me is a relative.

Also, is it not possible that during the development of some people that some biological signals get crossed along the way causing a person to be homo-sexual? There are other human conditions that cause some people to view things very differently, or even "backwards" from the rest of us, like dyslexia for example. And what about homo sexuals that know they are gay from a very young age? Do 12 year olds decide to become a sexual deviant?

[Glenn X]

Originally posted by Destino

Originally posted by phanatic

That depends on what country or culture is in question.

The hell it does. Two ADULTS can do as they wish

Yes, but in most states in the U.S. "adult" is defined as being 18 or older, while in other countries the definition of "adult" can be younger than that. So phanatic's point is a good one.

Originally posted by GSF

Who gets to set the scale of deviancy Art? The church? The government?

The state gets to set the scale for deviancy. The legislature passes laws, such as those outlawing sexual contact between adults and minors, and it's up to the police to enforce those laws and the district attorneys to prosecute the offenders. "These are their stories... [cue dong-dong sound effect]" :laugh:

Sorry. Went into Law & Order mode there for a second.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Glenn X

Yes, but in most states in the U.S. "adult" is defined as being 18 or older, while in other countries the definition of "adult" can be younger than that. So phanatic's point is a good one.

Actually that would mean that the behavior isn't limited in scope to homosexuals and thus the point that in some places you can sleep with boys is dishonest and irrelevant. If one wishes to rightfully point out the wrongs of allowing adults to sexually abuse minors in certain areas of the world, one may do so, but to claim it as supporting evidence to oppose homosexuality is absurd.

Originally posted by Glenn X

The state gets to set the scale for deviancy. The legislature passes laws, such as those outlawing sexual contact between adults and minors, and it's up to the police to enforce those laws and the district attorneys to prosecute the offenders. "These are their stories... [cue dong-dong sound effect]" :laugh:

Sorry. Went into Law & Order mode there for a second.

+2 for humor. good one.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

This debate has spun out of control IMO.

This is cut and dry...no matter how "unreasonable" a group's rules are, they are that group's rules. End of story.

The Catholic Church (as many have stated earlier) has been condemning homosexuality for centuries. Therefore, if you are going to advocate it, you are in violation of the Church's beliefs...

To me it seems pretty basic. If one disagrees with this view, why would one even WANT to be a Catholic??

I am a Catholic and am not married. I am technically "living in sin" because I have pre-marital sex. If I were to "protest" this rule with a sash, how dumb would that look? I know the "rule" and I break it....why complain to have the rule changed?? The rule itself is not up for debate....