a religion of hate?

[Thiebear]

BLAH BLAH BLAH!

It's a PRIVATE club, you want to belong, abide by the rules.

End "o-freaking-story".

There you go, in a nutshell it is decided. Nothing about religion, nothing about your sexual preference.....

If you don't like it, join the club that goes against it, or even better join a club that fits "YOUR" style.

[phanatic]

Originally posted by Destino

According to what liberals? Give examples or spare me your mindless drivel based more on stereotypes then any actual knowledge on the issue.

Sorry to respond so late, Destino. What YOU fail to understand is that the church has a right to do whatever they deem worthy. Liberals will always hide under the cloak of exclusion. From the Masters to racial profiling to the churches. Bottom line, if they don't want gays on board, too damn bad. Whos next, Destino? How about a preacher with seven wives, some of which in their teenage years? Drivel my ass! Liberalism WILL be the death of this country. As Art stated, you have no idea how damaging this will be to society.

Personally, I think the catholic church is a fraud. Where did the idea of confession and the collection plate come from? Well how else did they get the money to build the dome of St. Peter?

I'm a unitarian, if you're wondering. What really pisses me off is the liberal idea that they can stick their sick and twisted shoehorn into any and every issue, club, religion etc. That's downright BS!

[Cskin]

It's a PRIVATE club, you want to belong, abide by the rules.

I like that.... kinda like the Masters tournament in Augusta.

Want to go to church... abide by their rules and beliefs.... or at least... don't speak out against them.

Oh...and kick Kerry to the curb!!!!

[Ancalagon the Black]

What really pisses me off is the liberal idea that they can stick their sick and twisted shoehorn into any and every issue, club, religion etc.

You're right. Murdering abortion doctors is completely within the realm of noninterference. Sigh.

Lots of issues going on in this thread. First, many people are arguing that the Catholic church has the right to do what it likes with its doctrine. Very true. And other people can say that that doctrine is STUPID. Similarly, we can say that certain aspects of Muslim doctrine are STUPID and VIOLENT, right luckydevil?

As far as I can tell, webnarc wasn't saying that we should like people who blow up civilians. Indeed, he was, perhaps, questioning why we are wasting our time with such ridiculous things as discrimination against homosexuals at home. To somehow read into his statement that violent acts of terrorism and discrimination are somehow "equal" is equivocation at its most obvious.

As far as the "equal rights" argument goes, well, it's been discussed a million times here and no one's opinion will change. Suffice it to say that, from my perspective, granting blacks and whites "equal rights" by making a law saying "anyone can marry anyone of the same race" would be discriminatory and morally wrong. It was wrong when we had those laws (even though 93% of whites supported them).

[Thiebear]

It's Memorial Day:

Don't Forget the Boys Scouts...

They are in worse trouble than the churches...

It's another private club that states some drivel about being a good and moral person... :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[luckydevil]

Similarly, we can say that certain aspects of Muslim doctrine are STUPID and VIOLENT, right luckydevil?

right

[Art]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

You're right. Murdering abortion doctors is completely within the realm of noninterference. Sigh.

Lots of issues going on in this thread. First, many people are arguing that the Catholic church has the right to do what it likes with its doctrine. Very true. And other people can say that that doctrine is STUPID. Similarly, we can say that certain aspects of Muslim doctrine are STUPID and VIOLENT, right luckydevil?

As far as I can tell, webnarc wasn't saying that we should like people who blow up civilians. Indeed, he was, perhaps, questioning why we are wasting our time with such ridiculous things as discrimination against homosexuals at home. To somehow read into his statement that violent acts of terrorism and discrimination are somehow "equal" is equivocation at its most obvious.

As far as the "equal rights" argument goes, well, it's been discussed a million times here and no one's opinion will change. Suffice it to say that, from my perspective, granting blacks and whites "equal rights" by making a law saying "anyone can marry anyone of the same race" would be discriminatory and morally wrong. It was wrong when we had those laws (even though 93% of whites supported them).

Except, as always, AtB, the difference in your example and the reality of the homosexual agenda is that making a law forbidding a race from marrying another is by definition unequal treatment under the Constitution. So, you are right that even where a majority likes the law, it may yet be a clear violation of the Constitution.

However, until anyone can show homosexuality is a race or gender, then, the argument falls flat. The only way you can make such a statement is if you believe homosexuality is a distinct species or race different from all other people. Once you prove that, it's all just whistling dixie.

[Destino]

Originally posted by phanatic

What YOU fail to understand is that the church has a right to do whatever they deem worthy. Liberals will always hide under the cloak of exclusion. From the Masters to racial profiling to the churches. Bottom line, if they don't want gays on board, too damn bad. Whos next, Destino? How about a preacher with seven wives, some of which in their teenage years? Drivel my ass! Liberalism WILL be the death of this country. As Art stated, you have no idea how damaging this will be to society.

I'm not failing to understand anything, other then you odd need to attack the great liberal boogyman instead of addressing what I am writing. I am a Catholic and I understand full well that they are free to do as they wish. your challenge is to show me where I said otherwise. What I am saying is that I don't have to stick around and associate myself with their idiocy, and won't. I am still free to have an opinion aren't I? Ok then.

In the future when responding to me you can leave out the attack on "liberalism" if you have no arguement of any value to make concerning my statments then don't bother directing them at me.

[Destino]

Art - you continue to treat homosexuality as a choice, or something less then a born trait. Why? Do you honestly think people think "you know I want to be hated and have all sorts of fun disadvantages in life" That's retarded.

I've also noted your "we don't know yet!" tactic (your fav) is in full use again. We never have the full story on anythign Art, your cheap defense of sticking your head in the sand until every atom is identified is growing old. We know enough to know full well homosexuality is NOT a choice.

Because of that the concept that I support giving them "special" treatment falls on it's face. I am supporting all people to be free to live out their lives as nature made them, if you prefer to play God and dictate to others how they should be because that's the way it has been, good luck. You'll lose like all those that came before that opposed equality.

[Thiebear]

Cskin,

(I like that.... kinda like the Masters tournament in Augusta. )

Sorry the Augusta thing is about race....

If you think the gay marriage issue is the same thing as "BEING" black... you need to do a lil more research on....

Rosa Parks or the MLK or the historical documentation that shows you have been owned/killed worldwide...

Are you trying to say your getting communion in a church is the same thing as same-schooling or getting to the front of the bus?

Or eating in the same Restaurant or the ability to vote.. Or how-a-bout just being able not to be owned?

[Thiebear]

I've never read anything about the "Gay Gene". Can you favor us with that Destino?

[phanatic]

1 -- What is the "homosexual agenda" other then demanding equal treatment.

I'm not failing to understand anything, other then you odd need to attack the great liberal boogyman instead of addressing what I am writing. I am a Catholic and I understand full well that they are free to do as they wish. your challenge is to show me where I said otherwise. What I am saying is that I don't have to stick around and associate myself with their idiocy, and won't. I am still free to have an opinion aren't I? Ok then.

In the future when responding to me you can leave out the attack on "liberalism" if you have no arguement of any value to make concerning my statments then don't bother directing them at me

How do you equate "equal treatment" with the catholic church being "free to do as they wish"? Liberal logic at work here.

[Art]

Originally posted by Destino

Art - you continue to treat homosexuality as a choice, or something less then a born trait. Why? Do you honestly think people think "you know I want to be hated and have all sorts of fun disadvantages in life" That's retarded.

I've also noted your "we don't know yet!" tactic (your fav) is in full use again. We never have the full story on anythign Art, your cheap defense of sticking your head in the sand until every atom is identified is growing old. We know enough to know full well homosexuality is NOT a choice.

Because of that the concept that I support giving them "special" treatment falls on it's face. I am supporting all people to be free to live out their lives as nature made them, if you prefer to play God and dictate to others how they should be because that's the way it has been, good luck. You'll lose like all those that came before that opposed equality.

Destino,

Genetics can identify the difference between a man and a woman. You can tell through relatively easy science how a person is of a distinct race. Yet, there has never been any validated study showing a gene associated with sexuality. Note that I didn't say homosexuality or hetrosexuality. I said sexuality.

It is preposterous to believe ANY of us is born gay or born straight. It is laughable and absurd and devoid of any concept that we, as thinking mammals, are merely animals. The only sex drive we have internally is one to procreate. Animals of all species know that. That's the drive born into every single one of us. Sexual instinct is a primal urge.

Having sex with another sex happens to lend itself to that natural drive, but, you are not born with any particular desire to have sex with the opposite sex or to have sex with the same sex. Homosexuality is, absolutely, a choice, just as hetrosexuality is. It doesn't mean you have to sit down and decide one day. It simply means you have primal urges toward sexual release, and in many cases, that urge can lead to unhealthy compulsions.

No one is born wanting to be sh!t on or p!ssed on, yet, that's a sexual desire some find arousing. You aren't born wanting to rape or dominate your women, yet people find pleasure doing that even if their other does not. You aren't born craving the comfort of children when you molest them. Your attempt to defend homosexuality as something less than the choice we all know it to be simply falls flat when you ask your idiotic question about other sexual perversions.

You asked, " Do you honestly think people think "you know I want to be hated and have all sorts of fun disadvantages in life"?

Well, do you? Do you honestly think a rapist does. Or a father who commits incest? People partake in all sorts of destructive sexual activities that lead them to be hated and have disadvantages in life. The difference is, dopes like you have decided to make elementary school debating tactics like you have in defense of homosexuality. Again, you've adopted this deviancy as acceptable and you demand others agree.

So strongly do you demand this that you associate it with civil rights by evoking "equal rights" as your catch phrase. In other cultures, it was taught from a young age that the only true love was that between a man and a boy while women were for making children.

In our society, you are taught from the foundation of the country the ideal the family and of the love between a man and a woman. Liberals simply want to rewrite history and all science by granting homosexuals status as somehow born to their deviant desires, yet, you'd NEVER grant the same argument to a rapist or a child molester.

Given this fact, we know your argument falls flat and is useless here. Given that you can not apply the terrible logic you have unless you extend it to all other sexually perverse behavior that leads to public hate and disadvantages in life. You won't do that. Of course the members of NAMBLA chose their lifestyle but gays -- of which those members are -- don't. Here is the slope you are forced to defend when you use such an awful defense of homosexuality.

I hope this helps enlighten you as to the problem with your point of view and exposes you to more reasonable thoughts on the matter in the future.

But, as a liberal, my guess is you'll read this and simply be outraged I'd dare associate being gay with being a child molesting cretin while you continue to associate being gay with being an abused race of people. Sad brother.

[Thiebear]

^

|

|

Dang.......

Scribbling notes.. that was gooooooood....

[Ancalagon the Black]

Except, as always, AtB, the difference in your example and the reality of the homosexual agenda is that making a law forbidding a race from marrying another is by definition unequal treatment under the Constitution.

Art,

You're absolutely right. Let's change the Constitution, just as we did for race. Because, you see, before we had Amendment XIV, we didn't have equal protection for races.

If you think the gay marriage issue is the same thing as "BEING" black... you need to do a lil more research on....

Rosa Parks or the MLK or the historical documentation that shows you have been owned/killed worldwide...

Are you trying to say your getting communion in a church is the same thing as same-schooling or getting to the front of the bus?

Or eating in the same Restaurant or the ability to vote.. Or how-a-bout just being able not to be owned?

Thiebear,

"No" in answer to all of your questions. And I don't see why it is that some people appear unable to grasp the concept of an analogy. Let's put it this way: if Chinese people were denied marriage and I reasoned by way of the (black) civil-rights struggle, would you tell me that I was equating not being able to marry with being owned and thus dismissing my arguments?

EDIT: As an aside, I believe that the "nature vs. nurture" or "genetics vs. choice" debate is completely irrelevant. Again using an ANALOGY (hint: this doesn't mean two situations are EQUAL), would discrimination against blacks be OK if we discovered that being black was a choice?

[Fred Jones]

Art,

Let me make some comments in your world.

Pedophiles prefer children. Some prefer young children, some prefer children in their teens. Assuming you have had a normal upbringing, think of it as chasing after girls while in college. I preferred to chase women in college and try and hook up. Pedophiles prefer children. That is what turns them on and gets them aroused. Girls their age just don’t turn them on.

You aren’t born to rape or murder that is an environmental thing. How you were taught right from wrong and how you were brought up affect what you will do in life. Include the fathers who commit incest.

Homosexuality, however, is something you are born with. You simply prefer people of the same sex as you. Now, as you grow up you have to make a decision. Do you get married, have kids, and live a false life so to speak or do you accept who you are and live with someone of the same sex. Newt’s sister I believe is gay. Does that make him bad?

The question is what does society do with all these people that prefer people of the same sex?

I fell lucky that I don’t have to make that choice.

[Art]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

Art,

You're absolutely right. Let's change the Constitution, just as we did for race. Because, you see, before we had Amendment XIV, we didn't have equal protection for races.

We agree that before the 14th Amendment we did not have equal protection for races. Of course, that wasn't likely to be the case in a country with slaves so the 14th Amendment couldn't really have come about until we reached a point in our society where owning another person was rejected.

But, why would we change the Constitution for sexual behavior as we did for race? Does that seem like a tremendous stretch or not? Being a race is certainly something a person is born into. Recognizing that and realizing that citizens of all races in this country must be granted the same rights is one thing. It is an entirely different thing to suggest granting one sexual behavior Constitutional protection.

As a society, we are allowed to make rules that do not discriminate any longer against any race or gender but that may discriminate against segments of all races or genders. We have laws that limit behavior in a civilized society as an effort to direct society to its most productive and constructive.

We've even made laws that dictate sexual behavior among all races and sexes. As you are not violating the rights of any race or gender this is allowable. If we start adopting various forms of deviant behavior for exclusive rights in this country, we open the door to any number of issues I'm going to guarantee you don't want to open the door to.

[Art]

Originally posted by Fred Jones

Art,

Let me make some comments in your world.

Pedophiles prefer children. Some prefer young children, some prefer children in their teens. Assuming you have had a normal upbringing, think of it as chasing after girls while in college. I preferred to chase women in college and try and hook up. Pedophiles prefer children. That is what turns them on and gets them aroused. Girls their age just don’t turn them on.

You aren’t born to rape or murder that is an environmental thing. How you were taught right from wrong and how you were brought up affect what you will do in life. Include the fathers who commit incest.

Homosexuality, however, is something you are born with. You simply prefer people of the same sex as you. Now, as you grow up you have to make a decision. Do you get married, have kids, and live a false life so to speak or do you accept who you are and live with someone of the same sex. Newt’s sister I believe is gay. Does that make him bad?

The question is what does society do with all these people that prefer people of the same sex?

I fell lucky that I don’t have to make that choice.

Fred,

Gays prefer people of the same sex.

Pedophiles prefer children.

Rapists prefer to force themselves on their victim.

These are all sexual preferences. Either you are born with the desire for each or you are not. You can't selectively decide that being a rapist is something that's environmental and how you are taught right from wrong while being gay is something you are born with.

Sexual preference is just that. Preference. Trust me when I tell you there are rapists out there who've never raped anyone just as their are homosexuals out there who've never had sex with a person of the same sex. There are also pedophiles out there who've never touched a child.

Being taught right from wrong in society extends a long way. In many societies in the world RIGHT NOW it is acceptable to marry a 10-year-old girl even if you're an adult male. In this society that is the kind of thing that will get you put in jail. All sexual behavior is preference.

I happen to like brunettes. And, yet, I married a blonde. I happen to like taking my wife from behind. I'm fairly certain I wasn't born that way. Yet, I am that way. I never sat there and said to myself, "I select doggie style."

And yet, I did select it as what appeals to me.

The fact is, it is somewhat pathetic that the American left NEEDS to make homosexuality a trait born to people. It is pathetic because it tells everyone you are trying to convince that YOU KNOW that behavior is WRONG. Yet, you NEED to find a way to let yourself allow it, so you turn gays into a special race of people.

This is the flaw in the liberal thinking. Being gay is no more a trait you're born with than any other sexual desire you allow yourself to experience. Except one. That one? Procreation. That's the one thing animals like we humans are born knowing we must do.

[Fred Jones]

Art,

I happen to like brunettes. And, yet, I married a blonde. I happen to like taking my wife from behind. I'm fairly certain I wasn't born that way. Yet, I am that way. I never sat there and said to myself, "I select doggie style."

More information than I needed, but it is what it is.

I agree that the Constitution should not be changed. I also agree that “If we start adopting various forms of deviant behavior for exclusive rights in this country, we open the door to any number of issues I'm going to guarantee you don't want to open the door to.”

I disagree that homosexuality is not something environmental. You are born preferring the same sex. The question is do you take that path or chose to live with someone of the opposite sex. The gay person can still procreate. The gay person can still have sex with the opposite sex. We may be born knowing we must procreate, but we are also can be born preferring the same sex.

Like I said above, the person does have a choice to exercise his desire or not.

Once again, however, I will say my favorite word balance

Liberalism is bad just as conservatism is bad. Too much right or to much left will lead to bad things. Liberals pisses me off just as much as right wing fanatics do.

[Ancalagon the Black]

The fact is, it is somewhat pathetic that the American left NEEDS to make homosexuality a trait born to people. It is pathetic because it tells everyone you are trying to convince that YOU KNOW that behavior is WRONG. Yet, you NEED to find a way to let yourself allow it, so you turn gays into a special race of people.

That's precisely why I think the question of making it "inborn" is irrelevant. I agree with you 100%--trying to explain it as "not a choice" is a tacit admission that it is wrong.

[Cskin]

If you think the gay marriage issue is the same thing as "BEING" black... you need to do a lil more research on....

Thiebear... I was referring to the Augusta Golf Club in relation to it's exclusion of women... not about any racial injustices perpetrated by the club in it's history. It chooses to exclude women from membership, a right it has by being a private club. I just left out the words "Martha Burke" :laugh:

Until proven otherwise, I consider homosexuality as a learned behaviour.... in the same category as:

Beastiality, Necrophelia (?), and any other sexual deviances in today's society. People aren't born to desire having sex with dead people. People aren't born to desire to have sex with animals.

You are born preferring the same sex.

Where is the genetic marker indentifying someone as either homosexual or not. It doesn't exist.... quit making things up that have no scientifc basis. People aren't born to desire sex with the same gender. There is a trigger, an unhealthy eviroment or traumatic experience that occurs. My Uncle was homosexual, spent alot of time with my mom..sisters... and I after my father was killed.... I didn't become homosexual.

Until they find a gene that causes homosexuality.... it's a choice. Someone's choice shouldn't be rammed down the rest of society's throats. Civil Unions... great!!!! Marriages... not a chance. I might choose to play in traffic in front of my house. Should that mean that I should force the local/state govt. to disallow traffic on my street?

Pedophiles... nail em' to stakes and let's burn them alive.

[fmorris]

Originally posted by phanatic

Liberalism WILL be the death of this country. As Art stated, you have no idea how damaging this will be to society.

**Not all politics follow political lines to the letter. For example it's possible to have liberal ideas on say, working wages, and be rather conservative on an issue such as abortion, or gun control. What your doing here is showing a blatent disregard for any ideal that doesnt match your own. Your raising your level of paranoia, while breathing life into your own fears. Try to keep an open mind, especially on those topics you think you know the most.

I'm a unitarian, if you're wondering. What really pisses me off is the liberal idea that they can stick their sick and twisted shoehorn into any and every issue, club, religion etc. That's downright BS!

Wow, sick and twisted? Just a bit harsh, don't ya think? Mmmwwahahahahahaha....Teehen meeleon dollers!

F.Morris (Meeting your liberal conspiracy needs since 1970)

[Destino]

Originally posted by phanatic

How do you equate "equal treatment" with the catholic church being "free to do as they wish"? Liberal logic at work here.

Equal treatment in the eyes of the law, bonehead. Try to keep up. The first comment was not demanding anything of the church.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Art

It is preposterous to believe ANY of us is born gay or born straight. It is laughable and absurd and devoid of any concept that we, as thinking mammals, are merely animals. The only sex drive we have internally is one to procreate. Animals of all species know that. That's the drive born into every single one of us. Sexual instinct is a primal urge.

But, as a liberal, my guess is you'll read this and simply be outraged I'd dare associate being gay with being a child molesting cretin while you continue to associate being gay with being an abused race of people. Sad brother.

That Dr. Money debacle showed the world that the gender you are born with is not able to be changed. It is not learned or the good dr.'s study would have been a success. It wasn't.

BTW - good guess as to what a liberal would do, save your bull**** stereotyping for someone else.

[Art]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

That's precisely why I think the question of making it "inborn" is irrelevant. I agree with you 100%--trying to explain it as "not a choice" is a tacit admission that it is wrong.

AtB,

I realize we are not similar in our viewpoints, yet, despite one minor indiscretion, you show a capacity to understand things in a way that is better and smarter than most of the liberals in the world. I think you're a guy I can take back from the left . Anyway, carry on.