Rumor, completely unsubstantiated, from Redskins Park.

[SonnyJ]

OK, unless I am missing something, Gardner is signed for another two seasons. Unless the staff thinks he is too much of a numbskull (an assessment with which I agree ), he is on the team for at least another two seasons. See Buddha's page http://home.earthlink.net/~wahoofamily/personnel.htm.

As far as the topic goes, I really don't like the thought of taking Winslow. I just don't think of TE as being an impact position. I think the team can do just fine with what they have there. I would love to see a true ballhawk in the secondary.

Still, I have a lot of faith in the staff in making the correct decision here. I think I can live with whatever they come up with.

[Rocky21]

Originally posted by bubba9497

was Moore released?

Despite the fact that every other post says Larry Moore has been cut I believe, as of today, he is on the team.

[fish]

Originally posted by Hobo

im not a fan of getting Winslow still, there seems to be no pressing need to sign him. D-lineman and Taylor are some good prospects, as is Winslow, but he seems like a luxury item right now.

Same here. While the logic is sound in the scenario outlined above by Art, I just think we need to address the DL sometime. Some of us here have been screammng for that literally for years, and yet we go into the season, year after year with marginal talent on the DL.

With the 5th overall pick, we have got to get an impact player or at least a starter.

[Art]

Originally posted by KDawg

Art,

Maybe I misread your original post, but you said with Winslow there is no trade down possibility, but with Taylor there is? On my end, that doesn't make too much sense, is it possible that you could be a bit more clear on that?

KDawg,

What I took this to mean is that at No. 5 in the Taylor scenario, the Redskins would take Taylor, or they would trade down and take something else, like defensive line. In the No. 5 spot in the Winslow scenario, it's Winslow or bust. If Winslow is there, he's ours.

That's how I took it. I didn't take it that the Redskins thought Taylor was slipping. Merely that at No. 5 they'd take Taylor or they'd trade back and go another direction. With Winslow, if he's there under this scenario, he's being taken. Again, not my info, and may not be accurate.

[bubba9497]

I have read a couple reports that experts think Taylor's stock is dropping maybe as far as #17 to the Bengals.

[Dirk Diggler]

Not worried that we'd take Winslow over Taylor, but Winslow over every defensive player in the draft.

[Butz65]

This scenario laid out isn't much of a secret. All along the Skins have been rumored to be interested in Taylor or Winslow (or in trading down). Logic would state that if Johnson leaves, the Skins would look to add depth to the H-back/TE position.

I would prefer that they take Taylor or trade down simply because I think it's easier to find a Bryan Johnson type later in the draft than it is to find an impact defensive player. Johnson wasn't drafted in the first place.

However, I also wouldn't mind having a TE who would make Shockey an after-thought in the division. I don't see how the Skins can lose out with the #5 pick.

[fansince62]

it's inaccurate (or deliberately deceptive) to state that dl has been neglected. it flies in the face of the defensive performance - which has achieved top 5 at least twice (if memory serves). it's more accurate to state that we did not retain key dl personnel - for whatever reasons.

[KDawg]

Art,

Thanks for clearing that up, it makes alot more sense that way...

If Taylor falls to the Bengals that is one hell of a steal. He's a guy I'm gonna cheer for no matter what team he winds up on, unless it's Philly, Dallas, Jets or Ravens. I could stomach him as a Giant, just not when they play the Skins...

[Newera]

So you don't think TE is an impact position. So you don't think Shockey made much on an impact with the Giants.

Gibbs would make it more of an impact position with a guy like Winslow.

You don't think Winslow Sr. was an impact position. Or Jay Novacek was an impact position for the Boys.

Jerry Smith was Sonny's go to guy in the clutch situations. A great TE can make a difference.

You don't think Bravaro was impact for the Giants. Get my point.

[Shotgunner]

Our needs are so great on D-Line, I would hate to see us draft a TE, can't miss or not. At least if we took Taylor he would help our D. Time will only tell on this debate :doh1:

[Butz65]

Newera, I think you're responding to my post. Don't get me wrong, I think TE is an impact position (D. Warren and C. Didier are great examples under Mr. Gibbs). I just don't think you need to pick one at #5 in order to get an impact player. Aside from Schockey, how many of the players you referenced were drafted in the top 10 much less the first round? Good TE's are usually available in later rounds whereas impact safeties and corners are usually not - that's my point.

[WM_Marylander]

I highly doubt Taylor drops to #17.

He 'might' drop a few slots back to 8-10... but I gurantee he won't make it much further than that. There are just too many people who want good safeties.

That said, I don't think Taylor would be a critical pick, as like it or not, until the Redskins get more of a pass rush going, we could put Tiffany Taylor out there at Safety and it wouldn't matter at all. You need some type of pass rush in order to help your secondary out. (Look at the Panthers for a prime example of where the D-line helps their seconday our immensely.)

I'm not sold on KW2, but in the lack of a player warranting the top #5 pick on the defensive line, you have to take the best player available, especially if he is going to be a franchise type player.

And don't give any bunk about a TE not being a feature, game changing player. Tony Gonzalez and Jeremy Shockey should debunk that notion. And heck, Stephen Alexander in his one good year here shows how much of a difference a solid TE can make for an offense.

[KDawg]

Originally posted by WM_Marylander

I highly doubt Taylor drops to #17.

He 'might' drop a few slots back to 8-10... but I gurantee he won't make it much further than that. There are just too many people who want good safeties.

That said, I don't think Taylor would be a critical pick, as like it or not, until the Redskins get more of a pass rush going, we could put Tiffany Taylor out there at Safety and it wouldn't matter at all. You need some type of pass rush in order to help your secondary out. (Look at the Panthers for a prime example of where the D-line helps their seconday our immensely.)

I'm not sold on KW2, but in the lack of a player warranting the top #5 pick on the defensive line, you have to take the best player available, especially if he is going to be a franchise type player.

And don't give any bunk about a TE not being a feature, game changing player. Tony Gonzalez and Jeremy Shockey should debunk that notion. And heck, Stephen Alexander in his one good year here shows how much of a difference a solid TE can make for an offense.

You are vastly underplaying the importance of a good safety with this argument. I don't care how good of a pass rush you have, chances are you won't get to the QB on every play, thus enabling to throw the football. If your safeties can't cover they're going to get beat deep for six every time. And one touchdown can determine the outcome of a game.

And if your pass rush sucked like ours last year, good safeties can save alot of touchdowns. Our safeties did once in awhile, but take the Miami touchdown for example. Bowen took an awful angle. I can bet Dawkins wouldn't have taken that angle.

There is no position on the field that is irrelevent, it's ridiculous to even suggest that.

[Butz65]

Here's further proof to make my point. Here are some "impact" TE's and where they were picked:

M. Bavaro - 4th Round

J. Novacek - 6th Round

F. Wychek - 6th Round (Skins)

D. Warren - 4th Round (Skins)

C. Didier - 12th Round (Skins)

J. Asher - 5th Round (Skins)

S. Alexander - 2nd Round (Skins)

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Art

From time to time I get a little nugget of possible news from people who have substantially more access to the Redskins than I do. Often times it turns out to be false. Often times it turns out to be more of a media related possibility than a team one. Every so often it even comes true.

So, for what it's worth, the Bryan Johnson situation is said to be one that is worth close watching for those interested in knowing what we want to do in the draft. It has been said that if the Redskins keep Johnson, the intention would be to make him the H-Back and likely turn all attention to Taylor as the draft pick. If the team doesn't match for Johnson, Winslow moves back to the fore.

Within the Taylor possibility here is a trade down. Within the Winslow possibility is no mention of a trade down. It is said that some within Redskins Park -- not coaches necessarily -- think Winslow is a can't miss prospect. The rumor even said the HIGHEST level of the organization (Snyder) likes Winslow more than anyone else as it's been heard straight from the horse's mouth.

I do not know what weight to place on any of this. A lot of times I hear a rumor that is four or five people removed by the time it reaches me. Sometimes I hear them that are a lot closer to things.

Anyway, just passing along something possibly quite meaningless. Or something quite interesting. Who knows.

I said a long time ago that I felt Winslow was Snyder's choice based on the fact that Winslow is the "big name" of the draft so to speak. I totally believe that Snyder wants Winslow. It's going to be interesting to see if Gibbs agrees. I like the idea of picking Winslow, but I would defer to Gibbs, he is the mastermind and whomever he wants is good enough for me.

[jrfriedm]

Something to keep an eye on

[Dirk Diggler]

Thank you Mr. Butz, though I think many here would argue with Stephen Alexander being on that list.

What's even more sobering is how many first round TE's have gone on to return little or no value for where they were taken:

2003 - Dallas Clark, jury is out

2002 - Jeremy Shockey = great. Dan Graham = jury is out. Jeramy Stevens = doesn't look good

2001 - Todd Heap = looks good but drops a ton

2000 - Bubba Franks = excellent. Anthony Becht = bust

1999 - none

1998 - none

1997 - Tony Gonzalez - great. David LaFleur - bust

1996 - Ricky Dudley - bust

1995 - Kyle Brady - good blocker, ok receiver. Mark Bruener - blocker only

1994 - none

1993 - Irv Smith - bust

1992 - Derrick Brown - bust. Johnnie Mithcell - bust

[Art]

Originally posted by Butz65

Here's further proof to make my point. Here are some "impact" TE's and where they were picked:

M. Bavaro - 4th Round

J. Novacek - 6th Round

F. Wychek - 6th Round (Skins)

D. Warren - 4th Round (Skins)

C. Didier - 12th Round (Skins)

J. Asher - 5th Round (Skins)

S. Alexander - 2nd Round (Skins)

Interesting choice of players to use. I imagine you can use any position and find good players in later rounds. And, like tight end, you can also point to the first round where you find gems too.

K. Winslow Sr. -- 1st Round

J. Shockey -- 1st Round

T. Heap -- 1st Round

T. Gonzalez -- 1st Round

K. Jackson -- 1st Round

Good players can be had anywhere I think.

[Butz65]

Thanks Dirk - great perspective. I just don't think the team should chase a "name" when they can get value at that position later in the draft (see Desmond Howard).

[Streater101]

Food for thought, Darren Sharper and Brian Dawkins were both taken in the 2nd. and Ed Reed was drafted near the bottom of the first.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by Art

Good players can be had anywhere I think.

Great comeback....

[NavyDave]

Sometimes it takes divine intervention to prevent the skins from making a splash on offense in the first round again instead of addressing the part of the team that counts.

DEFENSE

I'm praying that poston signs KW2 also which will force danny and company to discover that first round picks can be used on defensive bluechip players too

[fansince62]

when your're talking hundreds and thousands of draft picks you will eventually get to 5-10 success stories. That isn't the issue. The issue is, in this draft, with this talent pool...will you find the success story? My contention is that is a different statistical problem altoegther.

As an amusing sidelight, if you follow the logic of "lightning can strike anywhere in the draft", then it doesn't matter who we draft. The odds are equally likely for bust/success by postion and it's a total *rap shoot.

[NavyDave]

Good players can be drafted anywhere but in the Redskins case you grab great players in the first round and dont look back