2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[skinny21]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He didn't cite specific teams.  He said in today's NFL, more trades happen, releases, more opportunity to build a roster faster.  Some say the offensive skill players in particular play better faster in the NFL than the old days among other reasons.

 

I know over the years, the Giants can be a button with you.  I remember that because they are button with me too but for different reasons.

 

Some like to cite the job Daboll-Schoen did taking over the Giants.  And while Rivera cited QB as the reason for the climb of the other NFC East teams so he believes I gather Jones is a really good one, not everyone is that impressed with Daniel Jones. 

 

And look its not as if Ron wasn't allowed to draft Jalen Hurts in that draft.  I don't get that vibe in retrospect.  I used to think otherwise because Dan clearly wanted to run with Haskins.  But according to Keim among others they loved Burrow and likely would have taken him if he fell.  Ron admitted in an interview he didn't think highly of Herbert and Tua and justfied why.  I presume he wasn't taken by Hurts either.  He was available when their 2nd round pick came up. 

 

Ron wasn't exactly at the mercy of circumstance completely when it comes to finding a QB.  He had some doing in it.

Regarding the rebuilding angle, the thing that really jumps out to me is the qb spot.  If Fitz stays healthy, and/or if Wentz is even a top 20 qb, we’re quite possibly in the playoffs 2 or 3 times in Rivera’s first 3 years.  In other words, it never even looks like a rebuild and I tend doubt there’d be any questions about him taking things slow.  Not to say there wouldn’t be other complaints of course, particularly in terms of a long term/franchise qb and probably the same issues w/ oline/linebacker among others.

 

On the flip side, although I’m not high on Daniel Jones, they implemented a system that fit him and, perhaps more importantly, he stayed healthy.  Wasn’t the only thing (Barkley’s health was pretty huge), but probably the primary driver.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Good post @Skinsinparadise and I'm so glad those days are behind us. Even going back to the Sweat trade. Scouts wanted to draft him in the first and they would have been right, bu their hands were forced.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Regarding the rebuilding angle, the thing that really jumps out to me is the qb spot.  If Fitz stays healthy, and/or if Wentz is even a top 20 qb, we’re quite possibly in the playoffs 2 or 3 times in Rivera’s first 3 years.  In other words, it never even looks like a rebuild and I tend doubt there’d be any questions about him taking things slow.  Not to say there wouldn’t be other complaints of course, particularly in terms of a long term/franchise qb and probably the same issues w/ oline/linebacker among others.

 

On the flip side, although I’m not high on Daniel Jones, they implemented a system that fit him and, perhaps more importantly, he stayed healthy.  Wasn’t the only thing (Barkley’s health was pretty huge), but probably the primary driver.

 

 

 

Ron clearly thought he nailed it with Wentz.  Because to have that much bravado about judge me in season 3 -- talking up their season climb at Carolina, etc, showed a lot of confidence from him.

 

I liked Fitz but as a stop gap, I don't think he would have solved much. 

 

I even let go the 2020 draft mistakes at QB but he didn't help himself by basically confirming that he could have taken one and explained why he didn't.

 

My big issue with Rivera isn't QB.  As I've said i can forgive swings and misses.  But I don't like it when he suggests that he was at the mercy of circumstance at that spot.  When he wasn't. 

 

But if you want to fix that spot, help the process.  Give the QB a big time offensive line let alone a below par one.  

 

Ron is a good dude but he strikes me being a beat behind things and to compete in a division with arguably killer FOs, we can't afford that.  Yeah even Dallas because Will Mcclay is one of the best in the business.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He didn't cite specific teams.  He said in today's NFL, more trades happen, releases, more opportunity to build a roster faster.  Some say the offensive skill players in particular play better faster in the NFL than the old days among other reasons.

 

I know over the years, the Giants can be a button with you.  I remember that because they are button with me too but for different reasons.

 

Some like to cite the job Daboll-Schoen did taking over the Giants.  And while Rivera cited QB as the reason for the climb of the other NFC East teams so he believes I gather Jones is a really good one, not everyone is that impressed with Daniel Jones.

 

The button wasn't specifically the Giants, but more so a team/org that seemed to be about as dysfunctional as we were, with a worse record than us for about a decade yet they were treated better in the media. They had a behind the scenes ownership squabble recently that might be righting the ship as the Mara family lost power (they only own 50% of the team, another family owns the other 50%). The Mara's had a bunch of family failures running their front office and scouts, those guys are supposedly gone. New GM, new scouting structure, and new Coach with an overhauled organization can improve their situation.

 

If the Giants do turn the corner as an organization because of the shift, it won't be a button that will antagonize me. They'll be rightfully talked about positively in the media. What did antagonize me were guys like Sheehan propping up the old dumpster fire that was as bad as we were and claiming they didn't smell or see smoke.

 

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And look its not as if Ron wasn't allowed to draft Jalen Hurts in that draft.  I don't get that vibe in retrospect.  I used to think otherwise because Dan clearly wanted to run with Haskins.  But according to Keim among others they loved Burrow and likely would have taken him if he fell.  Ron admitted in an interview he didn't think highly of Herbert and Tua and justfied why.  I presume he wasn't taken by Hurts either.  He was available when their 2nd round pick came up. 

 

Ron wasn't exactly at the mercy of circumstance completely when it comes to finding a QB.  He had some doing in it.

 

He wasn't available as we had no 2nd rounder. Bruce and Jay traded it for Montez Sweat.

 

• 2020 I still believe Dan wanted his pet project with Haskins and limited draft choices. I suspect Dan would have OK'd Burrow though. I also suspect Rivera did not care about limited draft choices as he legitimately wanted Young over Tua and Herbert anyways.
• 2021 featured no QB's available after pick #19 that would have saved us, unless we really believe Davis Mills can develop (I kind of sort of still do, but chances are bad for that). We tried to trade that pick for Matthew Stafford but he didn't want to come to Dan Snyder's team. Who would? Instead we wound up with the best FA option, Ryan Fitzpatrick who completely checked out after getting a payday from Snyder. I'm positive he was already thinking retirement until his agent told him Snyder would give him his largest 1 year salary. I wanted Fitz to pan out so bad, but his interviews during training camp and preseason? Man was he ever done and ready to relax with the family.
• 2022, who knows, but we drafted Howell so we'll find out. Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers did not want to come here (see above, Dan Snyder).
• My point about Mueller is that he acted like it was just so easy to find a franchise QB. There really weren't that many available chances for us to find that franchise QB Mueller pretended were available every off-season and draft.

[kingdaddy]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But if you want to fix that spot, help the process.  Give the QB a big time offensive line let alone a below par one.  

 

Along these lines, I think Howell could use a stud TE too. Counting on LT and the others seems to be a real roll of the dice. I like whomever suggested earlier that we cut LT and save the cap space and then pursue another TE option either through a trade or a released vet. I'm hoping EB believes we really have something in the young TE's cause I think Sam could use a productive TE.

[Conn]

2 hours ago, mhd24 said:

If they want to develop Quan similarly, I don't have a problem with it.  He probably replaces Fuller after this season anyways.

Highly doubt he replaces one of our top outside CB’s. If anything he’s a Curl hedge. 

[skinny21]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ron clearly thought he nailed it with Wentz.  Because to have that much bravado about judge me in season 3 -- talking up their season climb at Carolina, etc, showed a lot of confidence from him.

 

I liked Fitz but as a stop gap, I don't think he would have solved much. 

 

I even let go the 2020 draft mistakes at QB but he didn't help himself by basically confirming that he could have taken one and explained why he didn't.

 

My big issue with Rivera isn't QB.  As I've said i can forgive swings and misses.  But I don't like it when he suggests that he was at the mercy of circumstance at that spot.  When he wasn't. 

 

But if you want to fix that spot, help the process.  Give the QB a big time offensive line let alone a below par one.  

 

Ron is a good dude but he strikes me being a beat behind things and to compete in a division with arguably killer FOs, we can't afford that.  Yeah even Dallas because Will Mcclay is one of the best in the business.

Yeah, all fair points.  Not sure it takes away from the idea that we wouldn’t be talking about a 4 year rebuild if we’d been in the playoffs the first 3 years of his reign.

[@DCGoldPants]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ron clearly thought he nailed it with Wentz.  Because to have that much bravado about judge me in season 3 -- talking up their season climb at Carolina, etc, showed a lot of confidence from him.

 

That whole thing stunk of fake confidence. Needed a QB, knew that on the free agent market, they'd have to overpay for multiple years to get someone they kind of liked. Who were the other options? Mitch Tubisky who got a 2 year deal? Trading for a guy under contract but could be a one-year flyer that hurts financially in the short term, probably was what he felt was the best option for a desperate mindset. 

[skinny21]

11 minutes ago, Conn said:

Highly doubt he replaces one of our top outside CB’s. If anything he’s a Curl hedge. 

IMO, he was seen as a replacement/upgrade for McCain, that could also serve as insurance for Curl.

[KDawg]

23 minutes ago, Conn said:

Highly doubt he replaces one of our top outside CB’s. If anything he’s a Curl hedge. 

 

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

IMO, he was seen as a replacement/upgrade for McCain, that could also serve as insurance for Curl.

He will not be a replacement corner. Well, I can't say he won't. He shouldn't be.

 

I have a feeling the Quan pick is going to be one we look at for years scratching our head - and the sad part is it has nothing to do with him. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, @DCGoldPants said:

 

That whole thing stunk of fake confidence. Needed a QB, knew that on the free agent market, they'd have to overpay for multiple years to get someone they kind of liked. Who were the other options? Mitch Tubisky who got a 2 year deal? Trading for a guy under contract but could be a one-year flyer that hurts financially in the short term, probably was what he felt was the best option for a desperate mindset. 

 

They offered three #1's and change for Wilson.  Apparently asked the Vikings about Kirk and the Raiders about Carr but neither team wanted to sell. 

 

Apparently they didn't have enough conviction on that QB class which included Pickett and Howell.   Steelers brass according to some reporters are convinced Pickett is a franchise caliber QB and will shine this year, will see.  As for Howell, I got high hopes, will see. 

 

I was OK with rolling the dice on Wentz at the time but also thought they were fleeced in that trade.  If they weren't fleeced that trade wouldn't look that bad as a hit and miss.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

He will not be a replacement corner. Well, I can't say he won't. He shouldn't be.

 

I have a feeling the Quan pick is going to be one we look at for year's scratching our head - and the sad part is it has nothing to do with him. 

If I had to guess, his usage will be limited, but… I can definitely see him getting a decent amount of time in the slot.  For one, its not hard to imagine St Juste missing time (knock on wood), and second, if Fuller or Forbes miss time, St Juste probably starts and stays outside in nickel.  Of course, given how last game went - Quan struggling and Holmes shining - along with DJs performance outside last year, its possible one of them gets into the lineup with BSJ moving inside in nickel packages.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’m buying Forbes, Quan, Stromberg, Rodriguez, Andre Jones. 
 

Solid draft. I’ll take any bets you want that this draft produces at least three starters.

 

I agree over time that draft will likely be good.   But 2023 matters IMO in a big way for a number of a reasons.

 

I just find it obnoxious (not intentionally so) for Ron to talk about season 3 is the win now one and he said it with so much bravado to then in turn to blow off those proclamations later in and interview and the kicker is not to treat season 4 as a win now season either.   So he didn't mean it when he said season 3, he meant season 5 the whole time?

 

While excusing the idea that the Giants made a climb in one season which he couldn't match in three years which he attributes to "quarterback".  While Schoen uses a first round pick on an OT last year and then this off season drafts another one in the 2nd who is slated to start and makes the attempt to load up Daniel Jones with weapons this off season.

 

Daniel Jones was considered a punchline before last season.  Now he looks better with better coaching and they keep stenghtening his supporting cast.   The way these teams treat the off season, you'd think Schoen was he one on off season #4 with a sense of urgency to have his first winning season.  But nope in one season, the Giants have changed the perception with most around the league as a team with strong coaching -FO.  This FO isn't likewise as highly regarded t say the least. 

 

But will see how it plays out.  Maybe Ron is vindicated.  I hope so and big time.  But if he isn't, there is no scenario with me where I want to give him another off season.  

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

Curious how people would have felt about trading next year’s 1st to move up for Darnell Wright.

 

Checks the boxes of prioritizing oline, making aggressive moves, and supporting Howell.  On the other hand, it hinders a new regime (assuming there is one) and goes against the analysts (giving up vs accruing picks).

[wit33]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

He will not be a replacement corner. Well, I can't say he won't. He shouldn't be.

 

I have a feeling the Quan pick is going to be one we look at for years scratching our head - and the sad part is it has nothing to do with him. 

Fuller, Curl, and St Juste May transition out in next two seasons (Fuller and Curl after this season potentially). 
 

As we all know, the season often comes down to attrition, Ron and company went all in on defense and can sustain high level success if injuries take place on all three levels of the defense.
 

Ron has a program running and talent is waiting for opportunities behind the starters. Defense is built to be elite in every way. Love it! 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

Fuller, Curl, and St Juste May transition out in next two seasons (Fuller and Curl after this season potentially). 
 

As we all know, the season often comes down to attrition, Ron and company went all in on defense and can sustain high level success if injuries take place on all three levels of the defense.
 

Ron has a program running and talent is waiting for opportunities behind the starters. Defense is built to be elite in every way. Love it! 

 

This doesn't address my point at all. 

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, all fair points.  Not sure it takes away from the idea that we wouldn’t be talking about a 4 year rebuild if we’d been in the playoffs the first 3 years of his reign.

 

What if Rivera's biggest swing and miss was instead a big hit, the outlook would have been different.

 

Of course it would be, but I don't see that as some defense of Ron?

 

I get your point in the context of a rebuild.  But I don't think it fits, he's had 4 years to build this roster.  And my beef with his efforts is not QB in its current form but the O line.  And in the framework of a rebuild, give your young QB a good O line. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This doesn't address my point at all. 

If Quan starts next year at safety in place of Curl or in the slot if Fuller leaves, will you be scratching your head?

 

Or if St Juste has another concussion this season? 

Edited August 17, 2023 by wit33

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

If Quan starts next year at safety in place of Curl or in the slot if Fuller leaves, will you be scratching your head?

 

Or if St Juste has another concussion this season? 

 

Yes. I will.

 

Because Ron is in a "get it right or hit the road" year.

 

It's about nuance and context. You're looking at things in a straight line. Reality is that it's not a straight line. 

 

And if something happens and Quan is forced into duty, we'll see how he plays. Unfortunately, to win, there were players in positions of need available when we selected Quan and strategically I will ALWAYS shake my head.

 

But again, that has NOTHING to do with Quan or his ability. I actually think he's going to be pretty good. A point I've made several times. 

[Skinsinparadise]

If you got a house, with a really nice living room, but a kitchen that is falling apart.  Do you spend more money on the living room, with the idea of boslter the couch now before it falls apart later or you deal with the kitchen?

 

Sure, its nice to keep the leaving room a 10 out of 10 but doing that with a kitchen that's a 3.5 out of 10, is odd.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

14 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Curious how people would have felt about trading next year’s 1st to move up for Darnell Wright.

 

Checks the boxes of prioritizing oline, making aggressive moves, and supporting Howell.  On the other hand, it hinders a new regime (assuming there is one) and goes against the analysts (giving up vs accruing picks).

Trading future 1s is terrible value. I don't even consider it unless its for a top notch QB prospect and even then I'd hesitate.

[@DCGoldPants]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was OK with rolling the dice on Wentz at the time but also thought they were fleeced in that trade.  If they weren't fleeced that trade wouldn't look that bad as a hit and miss.

 

It wasn't a good trade for Washington, no doubt. Indy made their own stupid trade for Matt Ryan who was as bad or worse as Wentz. The 2 3rds for Wentz sucked. Not having to pay him past last year or have a dead cap hit makes me feel less terrible. I get what Ron was doing. Nobody else wanted to come to the Snyder Trainwreck short of overpaying over multiple years and guaranteed money. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

The button wasn't specifically the Giants, but more so a team/org that seemed to be about as dysfunctional as we were, with a worse record than us for about a decade yet they were treated better in the media. They had a behind the scenes ownership squabble recently that might be righting the ship as the Mara family lost power (they only own 50% of the team, another family owns the other 50%). The Mara's had a bunch of family failures running their front office and scouts, those guys are supposedly gone. New GM, new scouting structure, and new Coach with an overhauled organization can improve their situation.

 

 

I go way back with the Giants.  I lived for a span right near the Meadowlands.  I went to college in NY where most of my friends were Giant fans.  My in laws are mostly Giant or Jets fans.  What's saved me with some of them is I've been a Yankee fan forever.   Giant fans are often Yankee fans.  My hatred for them runs deep.  I read almost as much as i do about them than I do this team because I read the NY sports pages just about everyday.  And alas when the Giants are on and this team isn't on at that same time, that's what my home TV is tuned into.

 

Gettleman was a joke along with the series of coaches they had of late.   It hurt though that McAdoo won 11 games and eliminated us from the playoffs.  Hurt last year that we also got eliminated by the 2 matchups (bad calls aside) and they won a playoff game.   We haven't won a playoff game in 17 years or won 11 games in 30.   And they've done very well against us in head to head match ups.  So as much as we can goof on them for their faults -- its even easier for them to goof back.  Trust me i know because I live it. 

 

With Shoen and Daboll at the helm, they are getting a lot of love.  And I agree in the past the Giants got too much love considering their "meh" record.  But in the context of this current brass versus this team, they are the "cooler" team and considered the "smarter" team by the national media.  Whether that's true or not, will see.  But on paper this FO-coaching staff look to be.  And I'd hazard a guess if Daboll and Schoen were here we'd have some bravado against the Giants if the shoes were reversed.  I don't think any other fan base in this division is jealous that we got Rivera-Mayhew running the show.

 

2 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

 

• 2020 I still believe Dan wanted his pet project with Haskins and limited draft choices. I suspect Dan would have OK'd Burrow though. I also suspect Rivera did not care about limited draft choices as he legitimately wanted Young over Tua and Herbert anyways.
• 2021 featured no QB's available after pick #19 that would have saved us, unless we really believe Davis Mills can develop (I kind of sort of still do, but chances are bad for that). We tried to trade that pick for Matthew Stafford but he didn't want to come to Dan Snyder's team. Who would? Instead we wound up with the best FA option, Ryan Fitzpatrick who completely checked out after getting a payday from Snyder. I'm positive he was already thinking retirement until his agent told him Snyder would give him his largest 1 year salary. I wanted Fitz to pan out so bad, but his interviews during training camp and preseason? Man was he ever done and ready to relax with the family.
• 2022, who knows, but we drafted Howell so we'll find out. Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers did not want to come here (see above, Dan Snyder).
• My point about Mueller is that he acted like it was just so easy to find a franchise QB. There really weren't that many available chances for us to find that franchise QB Mueller pretended were available every off-season and draft.

 

We covered this before.  Mueller isn't one of those guys who thinks you need to take a QB super early to find a QB.   I don't per se agree with him on that.  He's very high on Pickett.  He thinks they skipped over a franchise QB.  No way to know but will see.

 

I gave an out to Rivera for 2020 until he explained what he didn't dig about Tua and Herbert.  The dude is honest to a fault and not a liar.  So I think if a QB is off limits or if he really loved a player but just loved another player more, he'd say it.  He'd go to Kevin Sheehan instead, we really loved Herbert.  It was a tough call between him and Chase.  But we had a young QB in the fold and wanted to go with Chase.  Instead he explained why he didn't dig Herbert or Tua.

 

I read a long article about when and how the Eagles fell in love with Hurts.  And they took him in the draft after Wentz had a good season, and Wentz played the whole year in 2019.  They gave Wentz a fat contract, yet wanted Hurts anyway.  Wentz was young.   I'd gather if this team was likewise in love with Hurts, Keim or someone would have heard about it but nothing was said.

 

And look my point isn't about Hurts, Herbert or name that QB.  But its that i listen to a lot of narratives about this team and I pay attention when Ron speaks.  I don't think either dude was on his radar.  As to Mueller loving Pickett, will see how Pickett turns out.  But his point is correct, which is we had picks and could have taken players or traded up for them.  Teams trade up for QBs all the time.

 

And lol, still I've defended Ron on the QB spot.  And to some extent I still do.  But the idea when he suggests or any other person does that he was at the mercy of circumstance is BS.

 

My beef with Ron is the O line.  More people i notice on talk radio or within the local media have a beef with him about the QB.  I don't have a beef with him at the QB spot -- as to misses.  But I do not think its all bad luck, where he gets a complete pass from me about it either.  but i can live with Rons missteps at QB.  I can't at O line. 

 

And yeah it annoys me that he said QB is the issue of why this team hasn't kept up with the Jones' in the division as if he's at the mercy of circumstance.   With that statement specifically, I'd give him a pass if I heard of any interest in Hurts but I recall nothing of the kind.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Along these lines, I think Howell could use a stud TE too. Counting on LT and the others seems to be a real roll of the dice. I like whomever suggested earlier that we cut LT and save the cap space and then pursue another TE option either through a trade or a released vet. I'm hoping EB believes we really have something in the young TE's cause I think Sam could use a productive TE.

 

lol. don't get me started about TEs.  

[Rocky21]

3 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I’m buying Forbes, Quan, Stromberg, Rodriguez, Andre Jones. 
 

Solid draft. I’ll take any bets you want that this draft produces at least three starters.

 

 

Three starters this year?