The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Number 44]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Maybe they covet Maye and Daniels both over Caleb. We have no clue. And there are no absolutes. Lets say New England or the Giants blow them away with an offer. Arizona and San Diego arent picking QB's. They would be guaranteed one of the 3 in that case imo.

Do you really believe that the Bears don't care which of the top 3 QBs they get?  

[Going Commando]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I noticed that about the safety in that clip as well. I was actually trying to figure out what coverage they were in. It looked to me sort of like cover 1 man or something along those lines.

 

It was bad, whatever it was.  They're effectively in man coverage on the field side, but it was definitely supposed to be some kind of zone.  My guess is cover 3, but it's hard to tell because it was so riddled with mistakes.  In that kind of two minute drill situation, when LSU has one time out and is just outside field goal range, you're supposed to be tying to force the ball underneath and into the middle of the field.  So having your field side corner walk up and play flat-footed at the snap when he should be bailing into a deep shell, and having your deep safety bailing into the shell that your boundary corner should be in (as he's softly handing off Malik Nabers to nobody inside) doesn't make any sense, and is a recipe to give up a disastrous deep bomb right before the half.

 

AKA the Jack Del Rio philosophy of coverage.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

Yeesh...

 

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

The Bears aren't trading out of that pick. They're going to trade Fields and then pick Williams. Anything else is a pipe dream.

 

There's a catch 22 in the trade up one spot scenarios that gets overlooked. 

 

We're all assuming the bears are going to trade fields before the draft and now the writing is on the wall, which puts the bears as needing a quarterback like us.

 

I know teams can have slightly differing grades on players but there's no way that the bears and us can have such differing grades that we're willing to give up multiple firsts and a second to swap the quarterbacks we choose,.

 

it's just not logical that there's that big of a gap between williams and either maye or daniels that the bears would be willing to part with the pick and if they do they're admitting that they like one of the other quarterbacks more and therefore why would we want to Give them the quarterback they want plus a ransom?

 

Does anybody really think a team who needs a quarterback is going to pass on a much better prospect to get an inferior one plus picks, especially a team who has plenty of draft capital already?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24 by redskinss

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

If that's so, that puts the nail in the coffin for Howell (makes me wonder if we actually bring back Brissett). Quiet and calm but shy isn't exactly leadership material.

 

Daniels had poor leadership at ASU but good leadership at LSU right? Wonder what they make of that, or if they think the leadership was bolstered more by LSU's program.

 

I've read multiple times that Daniels is more on the shy side.  But super nice guy.  More of a lead by example guy as to his reputation.  but plays with such verve and is an upbeat personality that I think he's good with teammates.  But he's not described as an extroverted type.  

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/tragedy-and-triumph-how-jayden-daniels-found-peace-at-lsu-after-heartbreaking-pandemic-130048642.html

But his biggest change may be attitude. By nature a shy and quiet person, Daniels is more expressive than his father has ever seen.

“He’s just smiling and happy more,” Jay said.

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, Number 44 said:

Do you really believe that the Bears don't care which of the top 3 QBs they get?  

I think the entire argument is dumb because they are picking Caleb Williams at one. But we are just tossing around crazy stuff here. 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Est.1974 said:

Am I the only one that’s thinks a trade up for Williams at #1 is still the clear front runner ?

 

75% trade up for Williams

15% take Daniels at #2

5% take Maye at #2

5% any other outcome…..

 

You are on an island all by yourself and waiting for a rescue ship to go by 😂

 

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

If they trade back they are going to pick one of the other QB's they like. I cant see us running with Howell again. 

 

Howell was the talk on every media outlets when he was setting records and was number 1 in passing yards during the 1st half of season.... The team as a whole hit a brick wall when we started playing better defenses with our same poor OL and play calling. As a coach you can't ding Howell for that. A proper valuation will determine if running it back with Howell makes more sense since he already has the experience and needs proper coaching and protection. He is still a top 10-12 QB in my book.

[Number 44]

3 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I think the entire argument is dumb because they are picking Caleb Williams at one. But we are just tossing around crazy stuff here. 

Agreed.

[ThatNFLChick]

10 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

This makes me think that despite Zierlein watching more film, he never learned the relevant lessons from his too-low grades on the literal best QBs in the NFL right now.  When you're picking a QB at the top of the draft, you're not just looking for someone who can consistently stay on script.  You're looking for an elite playmaker, and creativity is the premium trait.

 

Ehhh, I disagree and I guess this is why people are higher on Williams (calling him generational) than I am. You can't live your life constantly looking to make big plays. The playmaking ability is a huge bonus but I have to feel really good about how you do the on script stuff first. If not, thats how you end up being fooled by someone like Zach Wilson. 

 

It can't be that every big strong armed QB who runs around is always the top pick even if rhey suck at playing on schedule and just play backyard football. 

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, ThatNFLChick said:

even if rhey suck at playing on schedule

Caleb Williams does not suck at playing on schedule. When he does it he is elite at it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, DogofWar1 said:

I'm just starting to dig into him.

It looks like the knock on him is inconsistencies and that he doesn't usually go through (or have to go through) progressions much/often.

What are you thoughts on his weaknesses?

 

IMO.  Struggles some with deep outs.  Arm strength is decent but not special, you can see it at times when he throws off of his back foot.  His eyes at times locks in too long on his first read.   He doesn't run IMO as much as he should, wheels are special, not sure if that's the fear from him or his coaching staff about his size. 

 

 

[ThatNFLChick]

11 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeesh...

 

 

1. Howell can't read a defense and has bad vision and terrible decision making skills

2. He has a pretty good pocket on most of these plays

 

 

4 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Caleb Williams does not suck at playing on schedule. When he does it he is elite at it. 

 

I was talking in general, not about Caleb there

Edited February 24 by ThatNFLChick

[Skinsinparadise]

Catching up to a Sheehan's podcast.  Sheehan as I mentioned previously worships Daniels.  He said he interviewed one of Daniels' coaches.  They love him as a person.  But they also said, he's not a vocal leader and is very introverted and shy.

 

Sheehan than opined whether it would give Maye an edge eveything being equal.

[clskinsfan]

Some more good Maye. Game winner against his rival in a game they had no business winning. Hopefully he hates the Cowboys just as much if we draft him

 

14 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeesh...

 

They all look even worse the second time seeing them.

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Catching up to a Sheehan's podcast.  Sheehan as I mentioned previously worships Daniels.  He said he interviewed one of Daniels' coaches.  They love him as a person.  But they also said, he's not a vocal leader and is very introverted and shy.

 

Sheehan than opined whether it would give Maye an edge eveything being equal.

 

Are you talking about the interview with Rob Likens, his OC when he was a freshman at ASU?

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Are you talking about the interview with Rob Likens, his OC when he was a freshman at ASU?

 

don't know.  I listened to Sheehan's podcast where he referenced it so I didn''t listen to his actual interview.

 

It's not the first time I've read or heard something that he's on the quiet side.  But let me guess its all BS, and he's an extrovert?

Edited February 24 by Skinsinparadise

[ThatNFLChick]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

don't know.  I listened to Sheehan's podcast where he referenced it so I didn''t listen to his actual interview.

 

It's not the first time I've read or heard something that he's on the quiet side.  But let me guess its all BS, and he's an extrovert?

 

No. I just asked what interview you were referencing so I could listen to it? I wasn't sure if it was that one or he talked to someone else. 😂😂 No need to get defensive. 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Ehhh, I disagree and I guess this is why people are higher on Williams (calling him generational) than I am. You can't live your life constantly looking to make big plays. The playmaking ability is a huge bonus but I have to feel really good about how you do the on script stuff first. If not, thats how you end up being fooled by someone like Zach Wilson. 

 

It can't be that every big strong armed QB who runs around is always the top pick even if rhey suck at playing on schedule and just play backyard football. 

 

I think a big problem people have with evaluation and QB analysis stems from being unable to figure out what a QB's traits and style outside of the context of their situation, and project how they could translate to other situations.  And that problem arrises in assessing both college and NFL QBs.  But in general, when you see a QB bailing water and playing off schedule, something has gone wrong with the offense.  When it's routine, then that's a bad situation that any QB would have problems with.  But when the QB also makes a ton of big plays out of nothing despite a bad situation, that means he's special.

 

If you can provide a special QB with a good situation in the NFL, give him a runway to develop in your offense and grow as a leader and player, then you end up with one of the dominant quarterbacks of the league.

 

If you get a special QB and put him in a terrible situation in the NFL, then he's gonna fail.  I don't care who he is, he will fail.  Guys like Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield, who are creative and special QBs, ended up in bad situations.  What they got were unstable, paranoid, and incompetent coaches running dysfunctional teams that pulled the rug out from beneath them and then scapegoated them.  This is such a common outcome for QB prospects, because job security and coaching staff and front office turnover are so crappy in the NFL, that there are only a small handful of organizations with legitimately good and stable cultures providing a good conditions for QB development.  And all of them still have their up and down years that test their culture and long term vision.

 

USC was not a good situation, particularly this year after they lost Addison.  They had one of the worst lines and defenses in the FBS, and they needed Caleb to be Superman and do all of the playmaking to compete.  It's not really a mystery why he plays hero ball and tries to string plays out so much.

 

Chicago's actually got a good OL, an ascending defense, and they've got some weapons now.  Probably going to get Odunze too.  I think people who are skeptical about Caleb are going to have a very different picture of him after they see him playing in that situation.

[Conn]

18 hours ago, NOLA2DC said:

You’re a funny person because you assume because I refuse to engage in a pointless exercise of opinion, I am useless. The board seems polarized, with most people favoring Maye, and I don’t think my comments will change that.

 

Seeing the exchanging of opinions here as pointless is my entire reason for asking you to expand. Why be on a message board then? I haven’t once tried to change your opinion btw. I asked that you examine the idea that your mind can’t be changed, which is counterproductive for any “debate” (you and I are not debating btw, I haven’t quoted any of your posts and pushed Maye or questioned Daniels. You’re just so defensive that you assumed I did). I never even mentioned Daniels in any of my posts towards you—simply asked you to expand on why you feel the way you do, if you’re going to repeat your opinion so much. 

 

18 hours ago, NOLA2DC said:

Your request for some type of objective measure is like searching for an international constitution, it simply does not exist.

 

This makes me question if you’ve even read any of the posts you’re responding to from me. I have never once asked for this. Never implied I’m trying to get you to prove your beliefs with some final answer type analytic. I asked that if you’re going to post over and over about your preference, could you break down the specific reasons you feel that way—and questioned why you flatly refused to compare the players side by side, given your confident opinion. 
 

18 hours ago, NOLA2DC said:

I am not confused, and I do not expect someone to be swayed after numerous pages and vids on both guys.  The idea that you think you’ll point to a game or stat and change my mind is me not being realistic. I don’t do this for a living(and I assume you don’t either), but I’ve seen several mocks with Jayden going #2 as well as Drake.  The bulk of the board seems to favor Drake, which is cool. I won’t try to convince people who’ve made up their minds. As long as we get the best guy, that’s all that matters.

I don’t want to change your mind (though I think this place is better when people are open to it—we’re all wrong, A LOT), I wanted you to expand on your reasoning. I appreciate that you tried to do so. I’m not one of the people in here whose mind is made up. I started as a Daniels person because I thought we’d be drafting somewhere between #3 and #8, that’s where I started my hopeful evaluations—I came in biased towards him because I spent so long thinking that’s the best we could do. @Skinsinparadise started talking about him as a top-8 possibility when #2 still seemed out of reach and Howell was still the man to many people.
 

I became a Maye person once it became clear we could secure the #2 spot. I still heavily lean that way, but I’m not entrenched or unable to change my mind. The stuff I’ve seen in this thread favors Maye imo, but I think it’s possible that’s due to the quality of the posting being done in their favor. It’s the whole reason I asked why you were unwilling to expand on your reasoning. The reason being that you think everyone is unable to change their minds is revealing, and that’s what I attempted to point out. 

[ThatNFLChick]

9 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think a big problem people have with evaluation and QB analysis stems from being unable to figure out what a QB's traits and style outside of the context of their situation, and project how they could translate to other situations.  And that problem arrises in assessing both college and NFL QBs.  But in general, when you see a QB bailing water and playing off schedule, something has gone wrong with the offense.  When it's routine, then that's a bad situation that any QB would have problems with.  But when the QB also makes a ton of big plays out of nothing despite a bad situation, that means he's special.

 

If you can provide a special QB with a good situation in the NFL, give him a runway to develop in your offense and grow as a leader and player, then you end up with one of the dominant quarterbacks of the league.

 

If you get a special QB and put him in a terrible situation in the NFL, then he's gonna fail.  I don't care who he is, he will fail.  Guys like Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield, who are creative and special QBs, ended up in bad situations.  What they got were unstable, paranoid, and incompetent coaches running dysfunctional teams that pulled the rug out from beneath them and then scapegoated them.  This is such a common outcome for QB prospects, because job security and coaching staff and front office turnover are so crappy in the NFL, that there are only a small handful of organizations with legitimately good and stable cultures providing a good conditions for QB development.  And all of them still have their up and down years that test their culture and long term vision.

 

USC was not a good situation, particularly this year after they lost Addison.  They had one of the worst lines and defenses in the FBS, and they needed Caleb to be Superman and do all of the playmaking to compete.  It's not really a mystery why he plays hero ball and tries to string plays out so much.

 

Chicago's actually got a good OL, an ascending defense, and they've got some weapons now.  Probably going to get Odunze too.  I think people who are skeptical about Caleb are going to have a very different picture of him after they see him playing in that situation.

 

See and I think people overlook this stuff too much with him. He made things harder on himself a lot of times. Take the checkdown. There was so much of him missing the easy throw to try to find a harder one. There are like 6 instances of this in just this 1 game. 

 

His fumbling issue come from so many plays like this

 

 

Edited February 24 by ThatNFLChick

[wit33]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

This is the kind of stuff that impresses me about Maye. His willingness to get hit in in the pocket while still delivering a beautiful ball. This was a cheap **** by the way imo. I saw some of this stuff from Daniels tape as well. But Daniels would be far more likely to take off and run in this position than Maye is.

 

Edit: Look how he steps up into the pocket and delivers the ball with velocity and accuracy while throwing from an awkward angle and getting drilled in the legs. 

 

 

Curious about a scout's analysis: remarkable pocket movement, yet it seems Mayes stuck to his initial read, which fortunately resulted in a beautiful play as the wide receiver found open space.

 

Is there more value in pocket manipulation with multiple reads, or does that receive different credit?

 

Not coming at this sideways, intrigued to learn more if anyone has any scouting background. 

 

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

don't know.  I listened to Sheehan's podcast where he referenced it so I didn''t listen to his actual interview.

 

It's not the first time I've read or heard something that he's on the quiet side.  But let me guess its all BS, and he's an extrovert?

Listening in, it sounded like a bunch of cliché answers, with the coach avoiding anything negative. While he does come off as quite shy and introverted, as you somewhat pointed out, there's a noticeable surge of energy and joy when he's on the field.
 

On a side note, but relevant to leadership through play: I appreciate elite dual-threat ability for its unique capacity to capture momentum and energy in games via low-risk, high-reward actions such as running the football to gain yards.

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

Am I the only one that’s thinks a trade up for Williams at #1 is still the clear front runner ?

 

75% trade up for Williams

15% take Daniels at #2

5% take Maye at #2

5% any other outcome…..

Basically. And you have been for two months. You yearn for it

[clskinsfan]

Another dime from Maye. Velocity and in stride accuracy are impressive here. 

 

 

Blind side pressure bomb in stride. 

 

Edited February 24 by clskinsfan

[ThatNFLChick]

 

This is why I am kind of particular about whose breakdowns I watch and pay attention to.

Edited February 24 by ThatNFLChick

[Dah-Dee]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Another dime from Maye. Velocity and in stride accuracy are impressive here. 

 

 

One thing I really like about this is, the play happens so quickly folks might not realize that was a 45 yard bullet.