The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

Gates is a dumb animal, know for his attitude and aggression. He'd be fine at left guard, but he's a terrible center, just like in NY.

 

Larson starting is going to be huge for this offense. Tough week to reduce sacks, but I bet they do.

 

Riddick has been really hot the last three weeks, which does not bode well for Wylie, but Lucas isn't good with speed rushers either.

 

And if we trying to constantly run Brob straight into Cox/Davis/Carter, like we did last week against the Giants DT duo, I'll rip my hair out.

 

Eagles are stout in the middle and have speed rushers outside. We have to take advantage of that with our run game and screens. Get guys out past the speed rush and edge.

[Conn]

Utilizing this QB (and piggybacking off the HOF mind of Andy Reid) is how EB built his recent resume. Yeah, it’s gonna be harder to not have that and copy-pasting basic Reid schemes onto this roster is not gonna yield fruit. I don’t see any evidence that this offense is anything special at a schematic level and it’s partially because we gave a 5-star recipe and $50 for ingredients to an Applebees line cook.

[Skinsinparadise]

I like Mark Bullock a lot.  I even subscribe to his service.  But he's not always right, I recall among other things he was a big Haskins guy. 

 

But it shows that people on both sides of the argument can get carried away with a point.  I don't think people are self serving intentionally or doing it in bad spirits.  But its more in the spirit of believing is seeing.   I know some of the defenders of this O line see the critics of the line are the ones with the issue of missing things on that front. 

 

But to show how this cuts both way.  Bullock in his tweets after the last game, started by putting many of the issues on that game at the O line, he typically puts them on Howell.  But then started tweeting about miss call protections and then all of a sudden Sam got it right -- suggesting it was Sam's responsibility. Bullock and Logan from what I noticed at the rare film watchers who defend the O line, most of the others trash it.  

 

It struck me at the time because often the center is in on the calls.  I know it was big time so in the past offense.  And it was part of the narrative about why Ron wanted a "veteran" center and didn't want to start Stromberg this season.  That was said by multiple beat guys this summer.

 

So they want a veteran center to help basically a rookie QB.   Keim mentioned them being upset by Gates' calls on protections.  And now Gates is benched.  But somehow its on Howell for these missed bitz assignments as some suggest here.  Heck the way I took Keim's podcast was Howell took the reigns some in the 2nd half from Gates and that improved their blitz pick ups.

 

Keim aslo talked about how this O line has been confused by stunts and there is a chance that Stromberg starts at LG and he suggested Stromberg is good at directing stunts. 

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Gates is a dumb animal, know for his attitude and aggression. He'd be fine at left guard, but he's a terrible center, just like in NY.

 

Larson starting is going to be huge for this offense. Tough week to reduce sacks, but I bet they do.

 

Riddick has been really hot the last three weeks, which does not bode well for Wylie, but Lucas isn't good with speed rushers either.

 

And if we trying to constantly run Brob straight into Cox/Davis/Carter, like we did last week against the Giants DT duo, I'll rip my hair out.

 

Eagles are stout in the middle and have speed rushers outside. We have to take advantage of that with our run game and screens. Get guys out past the speed rush and edge.

 

Keim mentioned that Davis might be out.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Keim mentioned that Davis might be out.  

Jesus, that's really bad.

[RandyHolt]

49 minutes ago, Conn said:

Utilizing this QB (and piggybacking off the HOF mind of Andy Reid) is how EB built his recent resume. Yeah, it’s gonna be harder to not have that and copy-pasting basic Reid schemes onto this roster is not gonna yield fruit. I don’t see any evidence that this offense is anything special at a schematic level and it’s partially because we gave a 5-star recipe and $50 for ingredients to an Applebees line cook.

Well said. In EBs defense he does deserve X number of games to figure out Logan aint Kelce Howell aint Mahomes and TMC > any WR he had in KC, and adjust the playbook.  Based on the complexity of what he implemented, players should also get afforded some time to get sync'd up with what he is doing.  Ironically winning his first 2 games let us overlook the Applebee's cold appetizers and raised expectations on the rest of the meal.  I think 3 straight losses was the threshold to realize the menu aint working for us.

 

Somehow some way he needs to get basic pass protection issues ironed out. Quick passing. Run heavy. Max Protect. OL coach should be gone. Larsen in gives me optimism but certainly not for Stromberg...  1st 2nd and now 3rd rounders unable to start for us... none of which can help EB and is doing him no favors in his first year here. Didn't get a game changer on D to get him an extra possession or better field position. EB got NO player he wanted in the draft - maybe Rodriguez? But he moved off featuring TE. Adjusts some in 2nd halves - he is struggling but doing something different at least. He deserves as long of a leash as JDR is getting this year.  He came into a **** show with a poorly rated OL and a near rookie 5th round QB that took sacks before he got here. On top of that all his backs are plodders/not dynamic/cut from the same cloth - not a game breaker nor true hands scat in the bunch. Are we the only team without a pure hands back?

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by RandyHolt

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I like Mark Bullock a lot.  I even subscribe to his service.  But he's not always right, I recall among other things he was a big Haskins guy. 

 

But it shows that people on both sides of the argument can get carried away with a point.  I don't think people are self serving intentionally or doing it in bad spirits.  But its more in the spirit of believing is seeing.   I know some of the defenders of this O line see the critics of the line are the ones with the issue of missing things on that front. 

 

But to show how this cuts both way.  Bullock in his tweets after the last game, started by putting many of the issues on that game at the O line, he typically puts them on Howell.  But then started tweeting about miss call protections and then all of a sudden Sam got it right -- suggesting it was Sam's responsibility. Bullock and Logan from what I noticed at the rare film watchers who defend the O line, most of the others trash it.  

 

It struck me at the time because often the center is in on the calls.  I know it was big time so in the past offense.  And it was part of the narrative about why Ron wanted a "veteran" center and didn't want to start Stromberg this season.  That was said by multiple beat guys this summer.

 

So they want a veteran center to help basically a rookie QB.   Keim mentioned them being upset by Gates' calls on protections.  And now Gates is benched.  But somehow its on Howell for these missed bitz assignments as some suggest here.  Heck the way I took Keim's podcast was Howell took the reigns some in the 2nd half from Gates and that improved their blitz pick ups.

 

Keim aslo talked about how this O line has been confused by stunts and there is a chance that Stromberg starts at LG and he suggested Stromberg is good at directing stunts. 

 

Keim mentioned that Davis might be out.  

Jamin?? Didn't know that he was injured. I just googled it and couldn't find anything either. That would be devastating. Not only is he easily our best linebacker, but he's having a good season.

[FootballZombie]

If Gates can't provide much in setting protection than he does not have much in the way of value at all.

The idea that he was helping was all he really had to offer

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

Just now, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Jamin?? Didn't know that he was injured. I just googled it and couldn't find anything either. That would be devastating. Not only is he easily our best linebacker, but he's having a good season.

Oh you probably meant Eagles Jordan Davis. Lol. Which I hope is true.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Jesus, that's really bad.

 

Their Davis not ours.

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Their Davis not ours.

That's why I got confused. I thought why would koolblue be upset about the Eagles losing a crucial player. Lol.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, Conn said:

Not sure, attempts I’ve seen at metrics like this in the past have been a DB within x distance of all receivers at top of drop type thing 

I just think it’s hard for anybody outside of the team who knows the route combination called to really be able to figure out what’s going on.  There are so many moving pieces and so many places where something can go wrong, it’s just tough to measure.  For example, does a defensive breakdown = perfect coverage?

 

I love analytics, but I think with football, there are some things people are trying to measure which are almost immeasurable.  UNLESS you have more information, like the play called and expected results.  Which teams have for themselves.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I know some here believe that anyone of us will forget more football than Jay Gruden would ever know.  And his knowledge is clownish level and doesn't compare to anyone here so who cares what he thinks.  I am not one of those people.  So for those who are interested in his latest take.  😎

 

He's watched and rewatched the games. The scheme doesn't do Howell any favors.  The O line struggles including picking up blitzes and stunts.  He said opposing teams have free rushers and the O line struggles when opposing defenses bring some creativity to their pass rush.    Not enough quick game -- screens.   He's said in all his years in the sport he never saw a free rusher in a 7 man protection scheme like last week.

 

He agrees with the group of people who believe that having a running game helps a young QB and the passing game in general.  I know some here disagree with that.

 

He's not a fan of this TE group.  He's not high on Logan Thomas who he sees as a very poor man's Jordan Reed.  He doesn't think the blocking from that unit is good.

 

Brian Robinson is a bad fit with this O line.  He's a power rusher and that's not what this O line is good at -- gap blocking and also this TE group isn't much of a blocking group aside from Bates.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Their Davis not ours.

That's great, but he's the last of the three I'd worry about. Wonder if they'll bring Suh back in.

[Rex Tomb]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know some here believe that anyone of us will forget more football than Jay Gruden would ever know.  And his knowledge is clownish level and doesn't compare to anyone here so who cares what he thinks.  I am not one of those people.  So for those who are interested in his latest take.  😎

 

He's watched and rewatched the games. The scheme doesn't do Howell any favors.  The O line struggles including picking up blitzes and stunts.  He said opposing teams have free rushers and the O line struggles when opposing defenses bring some creativity to their pass rush.    Not enough quick game -- screens.   He's said in all his years in the sport he never saw a free rusher in a 7 man protection scheme like last week.

 

He agrees with the group of people who believe that having a running game helps a young QB and the passing game in general.  I know some here disagree with that.

 

He's not a fan of this TE group.  He's not high on Logan Thomas who he sees as a very poor man's Jordan Reed.  He doesn't think the blocking from that unit is good.

 

Brian Robinson is a bad fit with this O line.  He's a power rusher and that's not what this O line is good at -- gap blocking and also this TE group isn't much of a blocking group aside from Bates.

Agreed, Gruden may not have been a great fit for HC, but some tend to forget he was the wunderkind of OC when we brought him aboard to be our HC.  The dude knows offenses.

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Agreed, Gruden may not have been a great fit for HC, but some tend to forget he was the wunderkind of OC when we brought him aboard to be our HC.  The dude knows offenses.

 

Yeah I get that some don't see him as a leader of men and was too stubborn about running on the first down.  Agree on that front.  But lol, I can't recall a day when people who were actually down on Jay at the time ironically attack Kirk Cousins by saying Jay's play design is so QB friendly that Kirk is just benefitting like any QB would from that system.  I recall joking that reading these posts people seem to think me or anyone here would throw for 4000 yards plus in Jay's system its that plug and pay.

 

We've gone from that to some thinking Jay's opinion is worth less than name that causal football fan. 😎

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know some here believe that anyone of us will forget more football than Jay Gruden would ever know.  And his knowledge is clownish level and doesn't compare to anyone here so who cares what he thinks.  I am not one of those people.  So for those who are interested in his latest take.  😎

 

He's watched and rewatched the games. The scheme doesn't do Howell any favors.  The O line struggles including picking up blitzes and stunts.  He said opposing teams have free rushers and the O line struggles when opposing defenses bring some creativity to their pass rush.    Not enough quick game -- screens.   He's said in all his years in the sport he never saw a free rusher in a 7 man protection scheme like last week.

 

He agrees with the group of people who believe that having a running game helps a young QB and the passing game in general.  I know some here disagree with that.

 

He's not a fan of this TE group.  He's not high on Logan Thomas who he sees as a very poor man's Jordan Reed.  He doesn't think the blocking from that unit is good.

 

Brian Robinson is a bad fit with this O line.  He's a power rusher and that's not what this O line is good at -- gap blocking and also this TE group isn't much of a blocking group aside from Bates.

And he’s unemployed for a reason. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

50 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Agreed, Gruden may not have been a great fit for HC, but some tend to forget he was the wunderkind of OC when we brought him aboard to be our HC.  The dude knows offenses.

No he wasn’t.  And Cincy was pretty happy to see him leave. 
 

He was an ok OC. Actually, I’ll even give him good.   Almost everybody at the time said Zimmer was the Cincy coordinator you wanted. 
 

Jay did well with Dalton.  
 

He most likely wouldn’t have gotten a HC job that off season absent the Gruden/Allen relationship due to Jon’s tine with Bruce in Tampa though. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And he’s unemployed for a reason. 

 

16 years in the NFL.  Played football as a QB or served as a coach since 1991. The idea that his thoughts about offense are meaningless like we know more football than him to me is beyond ridiculous

 

He's not a good HC, heck I said that afrer his first year here.  As a play caller -- lauded as one of the better play designers by many people. But like Ron he wasn't Mr. Analytics -- would run on first down.

 

He's not the only dude who believes in running the ball to help the QBs.  Both Shanahans have talked about it plenty.  Heck even your dude Sean McVay subscribes to it.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

16 years in the NFL.  Played football as a QB or served as a coach since 1991. The idea that his thoughts about offense are meaningless like we know more football than him to me is beyond ridiculous

 

He's not a good HC, heck I said that afrer his first year here.  As a play caller -- lauded as one of the better play designers by many people. But like Ron he wasn't Mr. Analytics -- would run on first down.

 

He's not the only dude who believes in running the ball to help the QBs.  Both Shanahans have talked about it plenty.  Heck even your dude Sean McVay subscribes to it.

 I don’t care whether his thoughts agree or disagree with mine.  And I didn’t indicate that in my post either way.  I just stated he was unemployed for a reason.  Nobody in the NFL wants him to be even an OC.  Now, I’ll grant you, there is maybe some Gruden schmutz from his brother which might have rubbed off on him.  But… his brother is also the only reason he got into the NFL coaching to begin with.  So I guess nepotism cuts both ways?

 

Also, Bruce Allen was an executive in the league for 20+ years.  Should we bring him back for his “expert” opinion in roster building?

 

How about Vinny?  He was the GM for us and personnel guy for the 49ers.  Should we ask his opinion on who we should trade or keep at the trade deadline?  It might be considered an expert opinion.  
 

Zorn was known as one of the best QB coaches in the league before he came here.  Should he come back to critique how we’re developing Howell?

What’s the difference between Jay and those guys?  All were long time NFL people.  All failed in a variety of ways.  Why does Jay get the “expert” title and pass when the others, if they went on a radio show, would be be labeled a moron? 
 

I think it’s because a lot of people believe Jay was a victim of his circumstance.  I don’t.  I think he’s the third murder.  Dan, Bruce, Jay.  In that order.  But he’s an affable guy, has a funny speech pattern, and that Gruden whit, so he gets a pass and people take what he had to say seriously.  And he knows stuff.  
 

I actually think he would be great in a booth.  There is no question he can see football and diagnose plays. He would be better than Tiki and Matt Ryan for sure.   I don’t wish ill on the guy.  And he has some value on a national level.  
 

And hell, if Jason Garrett can be on the NFL Sunday Night shows, Jay certainly could be.  Garrett is actually a GREAT comp to Jay.  Nobody wants him near their team.  But he has credentials as a HC of the cowboys, though not a very good one.  
 

If Jason Garrett appeared on Dallas sports radio, do you think ANYBODY would take him seriously?  Doubtful.  

 

I don’t really care what Jay says about anything.  I’m not suggesting he knows nothing.  Just that he failed as a coach, had a second shot as an OC, didn’t distinguish himself there either and now is unemployed.  
 

Shrug.  Tell you what, however. I think I’m in the minority and I don’t want to derail every thread when you post what Jay says.  And you have the right to post it.  I’ve made my point.  I’m going to let all future Gruden posts just go without comment.  You don’t have to qualify them saying some people think he’s an idiot on my behalf either.  I’ll exercise self restraint and just let it go.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[philibusters]

42 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

Also, Bruce Allen was an executive in the league for 20+ years.  Should we bring him back for his “expert” opinion in roster building?

 

How about Vinny?  He was the GM for us and personnel guy for the 49ers.  Should we ask his opinion on who we should trade or keep at the trade deadline?  It might be considered an expert opinion.  
 

Zorn was known as one of the best QB coaches in the league before he came here.  Should he come back to critique how we’re developing Howell?

 

 

Every single one of those guys is an expert in my opinion whose thoughts are worth listening to.  I would definitely not label any of them morons.   Doesn't mean they were a good HC, OC, or GM, but they all know a lot about football.  For what its worth Zorn was a couple time pro bowler QB in the NFL and one time all pro (albeit 2nd team).  Because he failed miserably as a HC here, doesn't make him a dolt.   He knows a lot of football.   

 

Jay Gruden knows a lot of football.  However issues are complex.  Jay Gruden is not some brilliant authority, but I definitely am interested in his opinions because I understand he has an informed opinion.

 

You can have three doctors with 20 years of experience work with a patient with complex issues and they will all have slightly different takes.   Are some interesting science issue, with 100 different scientists breaking down into 4 or 5 camps without any of them having a consensus.   You can have 10 small successful business owners with  years of experience all would handle some issue differently.   There are no definitive authorities.   If people are taking Jay Gruden as a definitive authority shame on them for their naviety.   On the other hand, the man very likely knows more football than any poster on this board, so his take is worth listening to.

[Skinsinparadise]

@Voice_of_Reason

 

If Jason Garrett, who went to Princeton, and played QB and coached in the NFL for eons.  Talked as an analyst.  Not a HC.  But for a dude who played QB in the past and isn't a moron about football, and he said he's watched every Dallas games twice this year, and here's his take about the blocking-scheme from the perspective of someone who played QB -- I don't think even the average Cowboy fan would say any random Cowboy fan on twitter knows as much about offense and the QB spot as Garrett. 

 

And i be there are some exteme fans that would go that far.  But that's my point treating Gruden as the village Idiot about offenses is silly IMO.

 

It's not analogous to Bruce Allen.  Bruce Allen is an ex-agent with no background in scouting making personnel decisions above actual scouts.   Jay spent his career around offenses and the Qb position.  Bruce was an agent-politician who was given the reigns over something he had no background in -- as Mike Lombardi said with the Raiders he had no say and no involvement with scouting-personnel.  He was purely a money guy.

 

Jay isn't considered a clown like Zorn was.   Maybe you think the two are apples to apples but to me its apples to oranges.   But to play along even Zorn isn't a complete clown, if he explained pass protection from the perspective of a QB, I still wouldn't think we know as much as he does about it.   I'd be interested in hearing what he thought.

 

Heck as much as i disliked Bruce if it came to discussion about how agents-contracts worked, I don't think his opinion would be worthless from that context.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

@Skinsinparadise

 

It’s100% the same thing.  If you choose not to see it, that’s fine.  But it’s 4 failed people in the NFL. Bruce was a GM for 2 teams for close to 20 years.  You can dismiss his credentials.  But they exist as much as Jay’s do. Bruce was also a football lifer. He was even on the sidelines as a kid and grew up in a football family since his dad was George Allen.  He has, technically, more credentials about GM and NFL inner workings than Jay has about offense.  He was executive of the year with the Raiders I believe.  You just dismiss him because of all the reasons you’ve stated.  But if we’re discussing credentials, he’s credentialed.  Technically.  Personally, I have no interest in what he has to say either.  

 

As do Zorn’s.  You say he was a clown.  He held the record for passing for the Seattle Seahawks until Wilson broke it.  I say when it comes to being a HC, Jay might not have been quite as bad, but wasn’t honestly that much better.  His record is slightly better (.418 vs. .375 winning percentage) because he had McVay as OC and Kirk as QB from 2015-2016.  You are making a judgement Jay’s opinion is worth more than the other failed NFL long timers.  That’s fine.  Your choice.  
 

But if you were being honest, it’s the same scenario.

 

Also FWIW, I don’t care what Charlie Casserly has to say either. Dude did nothing as a GM here after the team Beathard put together started to disappear due to age.  And he totally failed as Houston GM.  But he still, for some reason, has credibility. 

I’m not saying I know more than Jay. Or Bruce. Or Zorn. Or Charlie.  Or Garrett.  I just don’t think their opinions should be considered expert level because of their failures.  

 

I’m saying the fact he has a voice in this media market is so bananas.  And I’d be willing to bet not one single Dallas radio or podcast would dare put Garrett for his opinion on McCarth’s offense.  Do fans think they are smarter than him? Probably not.  Do they want to hear anything come out of his mouth?  If hazard to guess not.  
 

This is it.  I’m done with Jay.  Y’all can bandy about his thoughts all you want.  This is my last post on this topic.  Whatever your retort is, it will not be replied to.  
 

EDIT to add one thing:  in 4 years, if Ron is asked on a podcast, would you consider his opinion expert level? His record is going to be similar to Jay’s.  He’s a member of the 85 bears, an NFL lifer and coaches a team to the SB.  He has over 100 wins as an NFL coach.  
 

Would his opinion warrant discussion?  I say no.  But that’s exactly where Jay is now.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Koolblue13]

Howell will be great if we get the right coach.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Calling either of those guys “system QBs” is so unfair. 
 

especially Hurts. He went throw for throw with Mahomes in the freaking Super Bowl lol 

[RandyHolt]

System QB RB playing QB... ~20 passing TDs a year isnt going to get him into the Mahomes conversation.