The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Est.1974]

Wake up call that yesterday. No point going for anyone with ‘lesser’ ability that Carr.

 

Its Carr, or better, or draft for me.
 

Trubisky, Mariota, Jimmy G. No thanks. Wasted millions to finish with 8 wins before getting embarrassed in the playoffs.
 

Might as well bring Kyle Allen back as a RFA and suck another year whilst a rookie gets up to speed.

 

Playoff games are being won by elite talent. Making elite plays. Get a QB. Another offensive weapon. And a MLB and DB to lift the bar on D. 

[KDawg]

For all the new Willis fans:

 

Keep in mind he’s a lot smaller than Josh Allen and doesn’t have the same pocket awareness. He’s also faster. 
 

I’m not against him but if you are thinking Willis = Allen I’d pull back a touch. He’s probably the closest thing, though.

[Burgold]

2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Wake up call that yesterday. No point going for anyone with ‘lesser’ ability that Carr.

 

Its Carr, or better, or draft for me.

While I agree, I'd argue that Saturday showed the value of defense over QBs. I mean 13-10, and 19-16 aren't exactly lightning it up. Sunday, the QBs began to make their presence felt. Tom Brady almost pulled off another one. That rb fumble by McKay nearly convinced me that Tom had signed a deal with the Devil. How many bonus, fluke chances can a QB get? But Sunday night, especially those last five minutes... "Wow! That was a show."

 

Both Allen and Mahomes went to a level I've rarely seen. I was pulling for the Bills, but you can't do anything but applaud Mahome's performance. Allen closed the game out, leaving the Chiefs only 12 seconds. That proved not only enough, but easy. And there was no question about who would win in overtime: The winner of the coinflip. 

 

For what it's worth, I don't think Carr could do what Mahomes did last night nor Jimmy G. nor Aaron Rodgers. Tom Brady maybe even though it's always been more about his brain than his arm. I remember back in the glory days, Theismann saying, that if you give him a timeout and sixty seconds left in the game he could get seven. Yesterday went beyond that.

 

Heinike showed flashes of magic, but compared to Sunday night, Heinike was doing card tricks while Allen was making the Statue of Liberty vanish and Mahomes was levitating it.

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

While I agree, I'd argue that Saturday showed the value of defense over QBs. I mean 13-10, and 19-16 aren't exactly lightning it up. Sunday, the QBs began to make their presence felt. Tom Brady almost pulled off another one. 

I do agree there is more to it than a great QB. 
 

GB got screwed over by their own special teams. The Rams DL was largely unplayable. Even so, I think Brady could have got them home if he had more weapon at his disposal.

 

We need to be better in all facets of the game. Coaching included. 
 

But this offseason we have to start the improvement by going all in for a QB. Caution is not on my agenda now. There is a window now to try and get someone in. We have to go all in and I think Carr is the least I would settle for. Even then, I’m not sure he’s competing with best of the best.

 

One thing is for sure, i think the cost of a good QB just went up after the weekend. 

[Burgold]

6 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

 

 

One thing is for sure, i think the cost of a good QB just went up after the weekend. 

I'd qualify that a bit. In my mind, the cost of a great QB went up and the cost of a good QB went down. Good isn't good enough.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'd qualify that a bit. In my mind, the cost of a great QB went up and the cost of a good QB went down. Good isn't good enough.

 

But an upgrade is still an upgrade and we have to give ourselves a chance.

 

Now... whether some of these upgrades are worth what they cost is a valid point that has to factor in.

 

Is Jimmy G worth a 1? No. Is Jimmy G worth a 2? No. Is Jimmy G worth a 3? Maybe? A 4? Maybe? A 5? Okay. A 6? Yes. A 7? Absolutely.

 

And a guy like Jimmy G isn't the perma-starter. You get him to improve, but not to be set at QB. So he's got a two year window maximum, likely less. And he has to be paired with a rookie.

 

There's a lot of levels to this convo. But the bottom line is: Improvement is crucial. Middle of the road QBs aren't worth a ton but can help short term. High end QBs are worth their weight in gold.

[Est.1974]

9 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'd qualify that a bit. In my mind, the cost of a great QB went up and the cost of a good QB went down. Good isn't good enough.

 Good point. I think the high end ones like Watson and Wilson, I mean it’s a major price. I still think a good one like Derek Carr becomes more expensive as his assessed ability likely varies between suitors. Could still see it taking a couple of high picks minimum.

 

But the average placeholder. I mean, I don’t see the point. We may as well keep TH and a Kyle Allen if the plan is to draft in round one. Might as well trade up into the top 4 and take the one you want to roll the dice on.

Edited January 24, 2022 by UK SKINS FAN 74

[Est.1974]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Is Jimmy G worth a 1? No. Is Jimmy G worth a 2? No. Is Jimmy G worth a 3? Maybe? A 4? Maybe? A 5? Okay. A 6? Yes. A 7? Absolutely.

Agree. But is he worth 10% of your salary cap as well ? Do you get a sufficient return on that ? 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Agree. But is he worth 10% of your salary cap as well ? Do you get a sufficient return on that ? 

When in comparison to Heinicke? Yes. When in comparison to literally anyone else? No.

 

I don't think he'll be available anyways. But he's better than what we have, which isn't saying a lot. 

 

Jimmy G is an incremental improvement. He is a Plan Z. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Ref Keims post, I want to see them do more than just try, throw their hat in the ring or inquire with Wilson.  If he is available and we lose out, I want to hear we threw a crap load of picks/options at Seattle and tried to sell the heck out of Washington to him.  I'll be satisfied knowing they got super aggressive and not conservative and stubborn. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

I am not worried about it.  Following Ron's rhetoric and everything the beat guys have said they heard, Mike Silver's article, etc, if there is any fear here it might be they gave up what?  Meaning they seem so desperate, that it wouldn't shock me if its an over the top offer. 

 

Keim in particular telegraphed this last off season, he said he was told then, they will chase QBs but they don't want to overpay, they want to build their roster but if they have the same need next off season (this one) they will be more aggressive.  All their behavior and rhetoric seems to indicate they will be uber aggressive.  Last year Rivera admitted he was hesitant to trade a player as part of a package, now he's flat out saying he woud. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

When in comparison to Heinicke? Yes. When in comparison to literally anyone else? No.

 

I don't think he'll be available anyways. But he's better than what we have, which isn't saying a lot. 

 

Jimmy G is an incremental improvement. He is a Plan Z. 

He’s better that TH for sure. I’m no advocate of TH sticking around.

 

I’ll rephrase, Jimmy G at 10% of your cap or TH at 1.5% of your cap. That’s the point. It becomes a wash on balance. It is a waste of cap resource for an incremental improvement. Trubisky and Mariota likely command 10mil p/y. Heading the same way in terms of real return.
 

Maybe I’ve been completely blinded by the weekends football but it’s all or nothing for me at QB this offseason. 

[Burgold]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

When in comparison to Heinicke? Yes. When in comparison to literally anyone else? No.

 

I don't think he'll be available anyways. But he's better than what we have, which isn't saying a lot. 

 

Jimmy G is an incremental improvement. He is a Plan Z. 

Ultimately, the question to be asked is are you willing to sacrifice the potential of great for the opportunity for good.

 

If you get a Jimmy G and he elevates you to a ten win team, that's better. However, it doesn't really move you towards being a championship team and may set you back if his trade cost prohibits you from you from leveraging up your draft picks to get the potential "great" QB. In 2023, a 10-7 team will not be able to get an elite QB prospect nor probably have the capital to climb the ladder. This year, it's hard to imagine the team breaking the bank to trade for a vet QB, sign him to an expensive deal and then immediately break the bank again before a single snap to try to grab an elite rookie.

 

Personally, I'm assuming that Jimmy G won't come cheap. He will cost at minimum a first because even if the 49ers want Lance to start, Lance is on that rookie contract and Jimmy's salary only saddles them with one "starting QB" salary. At worst, they keep Garoffolo to be an expensive back up who has already proven himself good enough to get the 49ers deep into the playoffs two of the last three years. Why would y a team give that away on the cheap? Because Kyle Shannahan likes Dan Snyder and wants to do him a favor?

 

I suppose Marriota or Tribusky might be had for cheap, but even cheap is expensive. Second rounders should be starters.

 

 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Ultimately, the question to be asked is are you willing to sacrifice the potential of great for the opportunity for good.

 

 

 

 

No. That's why he's Plan Z

[Est.1974]

Ultimately Rivera has said this offseason we have to make the big/significant step forward. Starting at QB is clearly the intent. Failure to do so because we couldn’t entice the right person through the door, you got to take that on the chin.
 

Failure to be appropriately aggressive in that pursuit and/or being unwilling to go that extra mile on resource investment isn’t going to wash. 
 

There is no easy solution though. Should be interesting.

[Burgold]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

No. That's why he's Plan Z

I think the same question goes though for most of the others. 

 

Is the capital spent on Carr (it'll be a ransom) sacrificing good for great? Tribusky? Marritota? Now, if you think you can get Wilson and Rogers or somehow Watson turns out to be completely innocent and proves it and you get him... then, you are throwing the dice for great, but almost all the others...?

 

I guess Carr would be a Stafford level acquisition? I'm not sure who would be favored if Stafford and Carr were both available at the same time for the same price? In any case, I get that Washington needs to start out next year with something that shouts, "Everything is new. Anything is possible!" It's just that I have a feeling that right now the instinct is going to be to buy high and sell low.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

I think the same question goes though for most of the others. 

 

Is the capital spent on Carr (it'll be a ransom) sacrificing good for great? Tribusky? Marritota? Now, if you think you can get Wilson and Rogers or somehow Watson turns out to be completely innocent and proves it and you get him... then, you are throwing the dice for great, but almost all the others...?

 

I guess Carr would be a Stafford level acquisition? I'm not sure who would be favored if Stafford and Carr were both available at the same time for the same price? In any case, I get that Washington needs to start out next year with something that shouts, "Everything is new. Anything is possible!" It's just that I have a feeling that right now the instinct is going to be to buy high and sell low.

 

Carr? Yes. Trubisky? Yes. Free agent. Wouldn't cost much. Upgrade.

 

But the key ISN'T the cost. As I said above: good QBs are worth a bit, great QBs are worth their weight in gold. I think you're missing that from my post. 

 

"There's a lot of levels to this convo. But the bottom line is: Improvement is crucial. Middle of the road QBs aren't worth a ton but can help short term. High end QBs are worth their weight in gold."

 

Lots of levels. Much like you're nuancing here.

 

Improvement is crucial.

 

Plan is imperative.

 

Trubisky alone is a fail. Trubisky and a first rounder that we develop for the future is not a fail. 

 

They need to go for the high end QB who is worth their weight in gold. Asset management be damned (aside from doing something stupid like going after a QB embroiled in legal issues). When that fails, now lower aim. 

[cakmoney61]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:54 AM, Koolblue13 said:

I don't think anyone is saying that JG is the reason the won, but that you can win with him and they did.

Respectfully... No.  No.  No.  No.  No.  A thousand times... No.  You can win with him if you have a dominant defense (check), some excellent offensive players (check), and your special teams makes major contributions like it did against the Packers (check).  Jimmy G is 100% JAG being carried along by a great team.

[Skinsinparadise]

Rumor is Jimmy G will go for a 2nd and change.  

 

4 of the top NFL leagues top 10 defenses didn't even make the playoffs.  Only  1 of those top 10 teams as to defenses are left in the playoffs.   The AFC championship has the 18th versus the 27th ranked defenses. The NFC has the 3rd versus the 17th.  8 of the top 9 passing passing offenses made it to the playoffs with the Chargers being the only missing and they were a bonehead call away from making it.

 

It's always good to have everything, good.  And every game is its own animal. Heck even special teams to be good helps.  The GB game teaches that the special teams is the most important unit on the field -- if we just go with that one game as an island.  Nothing beats having a balanced team.  But the lead dance is definitely a passing offense.  Not every game but most. 

 

Teams can have a good or even less than good Qb and have a one off season and even a one off postseason but it doesn't last.  The Eagles didn't become a consistent winner with Nick Foles. 

 

As for breaking tha trend, 49ers are probably the best example of a team that has somewhat done so, they are loaded, and they are more of a unicorn as for winning without a great QB. But they do arguably have a good one. Jimmy G arguably has been good but not great.   13th in QBR.  They win when he plays and lose when he doesn't.  So clearly he makes an impact.

 

I am not in love with Jimmy G.  But he might get to the SB twice in three years.  So its tough to say he's not the type of Qb you can win with.   It's not even a debatable point especially if he makes the SB again.  My issue with him is can he stay healthy?

 

IMO yes you can go to the big dance with a good QB if your roster is loaded.  You can't do it with a mediocre QB unless said QB gets hot.  Foles didn't game manage in the playoffs and the SB, he balled it, he led them.

 

Would I rather have an elite QB, you bet.  But the mediocre to less than that QB are more likely to make your team irrelevant than they take you to the post season.  If this team has a bunch  more irrelevant seasons, we are going to continue to reach depths not seen IMO in the NFL. 20,000 people in the stands?

 

Stafford isn't elite.  But he's clutch and he's good enough to win.    We were poised to make the playoffs or close enough with even Heinicke before the COVID stuff happened.  do we really think if we replaced below average QB with good QB play (especially clutch QB play) we wouldn't have made the post season?  Heck we might have even been able to win a post season game for a change.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

From a Carolina beat guy point of view.  The other 2 teams that seem uber desperate for a QB, same level as us, Carolina and Denver.

 

Wilson seems destined for a second act outside of Seattle. His no-trade clause allows him to pick exactly where that will be if the Seahawks decide to trade him. Despite suffering mallet-finger tendon damage, a dislocation, and two fractures in his right middle finger, Wilson put together an on-brand season and is still considered an elite quarterback.

 

He’d command multiple first-round picks (a theme among all these Tier 1 options), especially because Seattle should be desperate to recoup the picks it dealt to acquire safety Jamal Adams from the Jets. New York holds picks No. 4 and No. 10, the latter coming via Seattle. Carolina has the ammunition for Wilson. It should help that Panthers general manager Scott Fitterer played a major role in selecting Wilson in the 2012 draft and spent nearly eight years with him in Seattle before coming to Carolina. But would Wilson wave his no-trade clause to come to Charlotte? That remains unknown. Also, any team that trades for him will likely have to restructure his current contract, which has two years remaining. Wilson is used to being one of (if not the highest) paid quarterback in football. He’ll probably push for his current APY (average per year) of $35 million toward $40 million, joining Dak Prescott, Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. It’s a lot to consider.

 

Aaron Rodgers | Packers Packers’ savings if traded: $19.3 million 2021 QBR ranking: 1st (68.9).   Following the Packers’ 13-10 loss to the 49ers, Rodgers said he is going to take some time away to contemplate his future, but will let Green Bay know his plans before free agency. Which means by March, the league should know if Rodgers is available. He’ll cost several first-round picks as well. It’s difficult forecasting a better situation for Rodgers other than Green Bay. He’s expected to win his second-consecutive MVP and fourth total after another dominant season. If Rodgers wasn’t a Packer, people across the league would be pitching he sign in Green Bay. But sometimes its more about a change of scenery than being in the best situation. Regardless, there is too much unknown circling Rodgers for him to be considered a realistic option. If he’s made available, then Carolina would do its due diligence and make calls.

 

Deshaun Watson | Texans Texans’ savings if traded: $24.2 million 2021 QBR ranking:  There is not much to say here that hasn’t already been written, podcasted about or discussed ad nauseam. If Watson’s legal troubles are resolved, then Carolina will be a major player for him. He’ll cost multiple first round picks — which would likely include the Panthers’ No. 6 selection in the upcoming draft — plus future picks. Considering the Panthers are working with less fire power than teams like the Eagles or Dolphins, Carolina would have to be comfortable parting with a few first-rounders, and probably a young asset from its defense. Watson also would have to waive his no-trade clause and have his very serious legal situation resolved. There is a lot of unknown and little certainty he’s worth mortgaging an already cloudy future.

 

TIER 2 UPGRADES Derek Carr | Raiders Raiders’ savings if traded: $19.9 million 2021 QBR ranking: 14th (52.5) Carr is entering the final year of a five-year, $125 million contract he signed in 2017.

 

Back in October, ESPN’s Adam Schefter reported Carr and the Raiders would not work on an extension until the season concluded. Of course, that was before all the in-season drama the Raiders endured. Now Las Vegas is searching for a new GM and head coach. It’s also been reported that his future in Vegas will be tied to who the next coach is. If Carr or the Raiders decide its time to move on, it’s believed he could be acquired for less than a first-round pick. Precedent suggestions he would command more than what the Colts paid for Carson Wentz (a conditional first-round pick and a third-rounder). But Carr has battled a “we’re not 100% happy he’s our guy” stigma since he entered the league eight years ago. However, he’d be an upgrade in Carolina, and that’s all the Panthers can ask for. Plus, the Panthers have better offensive weapons than Carr has with Vegas. The problem is Carolina does not have a single Day 2 pick in the upcoming draft to offer. Recouping some mid-round selections and then deal for Carr makes sense. Signing him to an extension is what could become tricky.

 

 

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article257625838.html#storylink=cpy

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

When in comparison to Heinicke? Yes. When in comparison to literally anyone else? No.

 

I don't think he'll be available anyways. But he's better than what we have, which isn't saying a lot. 

 

Jimmy G is an incremental improvement. He is a Plan Z. 

As devils advocate; he's also in the NFC Championship game. Probably the worst of the 4 left in the playoffs but never the less. Yes I agree you have to shoot for the best QB but "settling" for JG with a good group surrounding him is eons better than what we have now.

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Jimmy G, don't love him, don't hate him.  I'd like him if he can stay healthy.  I disagree with those who say he's just a hair better than Heinicke. But I do agree that we should shoot higher.

 

Glazer below.  He said SF loves Lance but they didnt want to throw him to the wolves this past season.  They have been willing to trade Jimmy G but asked for a first round plus, other teams have been interested but have balked at that price.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/1995589699749

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

As devils advocate; he's also in the NFC Championship game. Probably the worst of the 4 left in the playoffs but never the less. Yes I agree you have to shoot for the best QB but "settling" for JG with a good group surrounding him is eons better than what we have now.

 

Why is this playing Devil's Advocate to what I said?

 

For the record, we don't know if Jimmy G would have the same success in DC as he does in SF. Scheme, environment, personnel, comfortability all play roles that we as fans often don't even slightly account for. 

 

He is an upgrade. But he is a last resort upgrade. And by that I mean he is the floor of what we can bring in from a vet.

Edited January 24, 2022 by KDawg

[Chris 44]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

Why is this playing Devil's Advocate to what I said?

 

For the record, we don't know if Jimmy G would have the same success in DC as he does in SF. Scheme, environment, personnel, comfortability all play roles that we as fans often don't even slightly account for. 

 

He is an upgrade. But he is a last resort upgrade.

Should have worded it better, more of in agreement / addition to what you said. "Devils advocate" to the opposing view.

[cakmoney61]

23 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I doubt anyone thinks that Jimmy G is any kind of answer to the long term top tier QB.

 

SF obviously doesn't, that's why they gave up so much to get Lance.

 

Jimmy G is the answer to the question "How do we become and stay competitive, while getting that QB".

Jimmy G has zero to do with SF's success.  He is simply a placeholder.  He is a below average starting QB.  He doesn't contribute to SF winning games.  He spends his time almost losing them.  He is not clutch at all.  Washington really needs a viable QB.  Bringing Jimmy G here, using draft picks then paying him $20M+ would be like spitting in the face of this fan base. 

 

WFT, don't do it!

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

He is an upgrade. But he is a last resort upgrade.

 

I like to pimp Keim because of how often he ends up right, he's not perfect, but he's often right.

 

In the twitter exchanges with fans I posted yesterday.  He flat out said.

 

A. Wilson will be chased.

B.  Jimmy G probably too but he's not the first option for them.

 

This should be interesting because if Keim is right again he's flat out saying Jimmy G is on their radar but a fallback option.  He also suggested if Jimmy G they'd be fishing for a Qb still/soon. 

 

I am not in love with Jimmy G but at the right price, especially if complemented with a young QB, I'd be OK with it.  It's not my top desire but its not a disaster.  Disaster IMO would be going back to the rodeo with the same band.

 

As you know, I am not down on this Qb class like some are.  And I get the Aaron Rodgers type Qbs trump the Derek Carr ones.   But in this draft, I don't see Aaron Rodgers.  But I don't hate the draft either, some guys in it that I think could be 2nd tier types.  Willis obviously is the boom-bust shot if we are trying to shoot for the moon.  

Edited January 24, 2022 by Skinsinparadise