The Washington Nationals Thread: The Future is Near!

[CRobi21]

Lol ump owed us for that terrible ball 3 call.

 

Adams gets robbed of his post game interview because of a Gatorade bath  broke the audio equipment lol

 

Damn rookie mistakes all over the place

Edited August 8, 2021 by CRobi21

[mammajamma]

young talent looking GOOD already. excited for the future of this team

[@DCGoldPants]

Losing great players sucks. But if the these games since the trades are a true indicator. Rizzo has already jump started the rebuild. Gray looks awesome. Mason Thompson had been solid. Riley Adams with his first MLB HR. Robles had a few hits. Kieboom was quiet but give his past week, whatever. He needs to keep playing so they can decide if he's turned that corner in his development. 

 

 

[bearrock]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/08/07/trea-turner-dodgers-nationals-career/

 

Quote

“I’ve been pretty honest,” Turner said from Dodger Stadium, where he was set to bat leadoff and play second base against the Los Angeles Angels. “I said I would talk about an extension whenever and waited for that to happen, and it didn’t happen. So I’ve been told a lot of things over the last two years, and, for me, actions speak louder than words. That’s kind of in the past now, it’s over with, and excited to start a new chapter.

 

Quote

“When I was with the Nationals, I thought I’d play there 20 years,” Turner said, speaking in the past tense about a team he helped win the World Series in 2019. “The organizations I’ve been a part of, I’ve liked. I liked the people there. I would have loved to stay there. These last two weeks have been weird because I go back and forth like, ‘Oh, they’re not going to trade me’ ... and, ‘Oh, yep, they are.’ ”

 

 

....

[@DCGoldPants]

Let it go. He's gone. They traded for him. Won a world series. Then traded him for a youth movement. 

 

I hope the Dodgers give him 300M+

 

And yes, I wish the Nats reupped him years ago. I also wish they reupped Rendon and he's out till next year. I wanted to keep Bryce. They paid Stras and it's been a disaster. ****, after the WS, I wanted Robles extended. There are no certainties. Turner missed time for his hand again. Then COVID. It hopefully doesn't happen to him again, but I wouldn't bet against injuries for anyone anymore. 

[Ball Security]

26 minutes ago, bearrock said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/08/07/trea-turner-dodgers-nationals-career/

 

 

 

 

....

I’m not going to look up every player, but a quick search of Betts, DeGrom, and Machado all have a higher rWAR than Turner the past two years.

 

I don’t think 6/100 is a terrible offer for him at that time when he had 3 more Arb eligible seasons.  He’ll be better off turning it down in the long run, but not a terrible offer either.

[Warhead36]

Baseball is a wacky sport where its tough to justify paying one position player big bucks. It doesn't necessarily result in wins. Look at the Giants with Barry Bonds. DIdn't win anything while he was there, he retires and a short while later they build a three time WS championship. Rangers didn't do jack with A-Rod, shortly after he leaves they get to back to back World Series.Do the Astros pay any of their position players HUGE money? Did the Royals when they made it to back to back World Series(winning one)? Take the Yanks and Dodgers out of it, they operate on different budgets(and even then, the Yanks haven't won since '09 and are currently in third place and the Dodgers had a pretty long stretch of mediocrity before they hired the FO guy from the Rays).

 

I mean we lamented letting Rendon go but he hasn't done much with the Angels and is now out for the year. Harper has been hot with the Phillies, but his first two years there they missed the playoffs and his best year with us(2015 when he won MVP) we missed the playoffs). We didn't win jack when Zimmerman was in his prime. We didn't win anything the one year Alfonso Soriano was here and incredible. Baseball is kinda the opposite of basketball where one big superstar can actually be a hindrance and its better to spend that money on a few good to very good players.

 

I kinda agree with RIzzo's approach. Spend big on starting pitching because that's what's consistent year in year out and hope you can get by with a decent to good lineup where one year things click and a few of them get hot(like in 2019). The roster/lineup was good enough to win in 2012, 2014, and 2017 as well.

[bearrock]

27 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I’m not going to look up every player, but a quick search of Betts, DeGrom, and Machado all have a higher rWAR than Turner the past two years.

 

I don’t think 6/100 is a terrible offer for him at that time when he had 3 more Arb eligible seasons.  He’ll be better off turning it down in the long run, but not a terrible offer either.

 

It's a relatively market offer heading into arb years.  But relative market offers rarely if ever get the job done in extending your young stars.  If they are going to continue to insist on market contracts for their young stars, they might as well deal Soto this winter or next when they can maximize his trade value.

 

It's also ridiculous that people like Zuckerman tries to do public relations for the team by floating $300 mil number for Trea.  That was never going to happen.

[Ball Security]

12 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

It's a relatively market offer heading into arb years.  But relative market offers rarely if ever get the job done in extending your young stars.  If they are going to continue to insist on market contracts for their young stars, they might as well deal Soto this winter or next when they can maximize his trade value.

 

It's also ridiculous that people like Zuckerman tries to do public relations for the team by floating $300 mil number for Trea.  That was never going to happen.

Sometimes you get a Turner result.  Sometimes you get a Desmond result.

 

Also, Trea says they never approached him about an extension.  So is the 6/100 report false?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Ball Security

[@DCGoldPants]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

Sometimes you get a Turner result.  Sometimes you get a Desmond result.

And sometimes you win a World Series after looking DOA.

 

LA has a payroll of something like $250M. It sucks that the different of what teams pay is what it is. They have a ton of pressure on them this post-season. They have to win it all. If they don't, their 60game mini season title will be cheapened even more. Especially after all those years of falling short before the pandemic season. 

 

As far as the Nats. Max (who I haven't heard he was extended) and Trea, and Rendon, and Howie, and Doooooo, and everyone else are going to be welcomed back to WS Reunions. They'll never be more appreciated by the fans than they were here after being baseball starved for 30 years. 

 

Go to let go and ask "what can be done to become competitive again?" 

 

 

 

 

[bearrock]

10 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Sometimes you get a Turner result.  Sometimes you get a Desmond result.

 

Also, Trea says they never approached him about an extension.  So is the 6/100 report false?

 

It's a little vague.  Turner said he told the Nats that he'd talk about an extension whenever, but it didn't happen.  That doesn't have a time frame on it (literally, it would mean it never happened ever.  But he could also mean that it never happened recently, such as after March 2020 to now).

 

We heard directly from Rizzo that the two camps talked numbers in spring 2020, so I'm inclined to lean towards the latter rather than the former.

 

I'm curious.  What odds would you give on Nats extending Soto?  And at what odds would you say they should trade him?

[@DCGoldPants]

5 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

It's a little vague.  Turner said he told the Nats that he'd talk about an extension whenever, but it didn't happen.  That doesn't have a time frame on it (literally, it would mean it never happened ever.  But he could also mean that it never happened recently, such as after March 2020 to now).

 

We heard directly from Rizzo that the two camps talked numbers in spring 2020, so I'm inclined to lean towards the latter rather than the former.

 

I'm curious.  What odds would you give on Nats extending Soto?  And at what odds would you say they should trade him?

 

Rizzo also said that Turner's camp wanted to see what the FA market was. For Short Stops this upcoming offseason. Was he lying? Maybe. Nobody had denied that one. Is LA going to give him a huge deal? Maybe. They have the biggest payroll by like $50M. Or maybe they figure having him till he's around 30 is worth the trade for 2 legit title runs and then let me walk. We don't know. 

 

On Soto. Most of us agree that you offer him the biggest deal in baseball now and let the numbers get out. If Boras says no. So be it. But for all the money Harper and Trout and Stanton signed for. It didn't win them a title yet. Are you paying because it could get them there or are you paying for a guy who did quite literally help get you there already? 

Edited August 8, 2021 by @SkinsGoldPants

[bearrock]

7 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

On Soto. Most of us agree that you offer him the biggest deal in baseball now and let the numbers get out. If Boras says no. So be it. But for all the money Harper and Trout and Stanton signed for. It didn't win them a title yet. Are you paying because it could get them there or are you paying for a guy who did quite literally help get you there already? 

 

Harper and Trout's contract is not what's preventing the Phillies or Angels from winning.

 

No one disagrees with the strategy to get Soto signed.  The question is whether that's going to happen (dependent on the Lerners) and whether that will be enough (dependent on Soto).  And if that's likely not enough, when do you pull the trigger to trade him?

[@DCGoldPants]

2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

Harper and Trout's contract is not what's preventing the Phillies or Angels from winning.

 

No one disagrees with the strategy to get Soto signed.  The question is whether that's going to happen (dependent on the Lerners) and whether that will be enough (dependent on Soto).  And if that's likely not enough, when do you pull the trigger to trade him?

 

You keep trying to extend, publicly to record breaking dollars. If that's rejected over and over. Then you tell me. When do you consider a move? With a year left on his current deal? 2? I don't know. 

 

This isn't an excuse when your owners are billionaires. But they lost out on a year as WS champs and all the gate, some merch, lots of publicity. Then you still have that terrible MASN situation. We know that plays a role in their decision making. 

[bearrock]

5 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

You keep trying to extend, publicly to record breaking dollars. If that's rejected over and over. Then you tell me. When do you consider a move? With a year left on his current deal? 2? I don't know. 

 

This isn't an excuse when your owners are billionaires. But they lost out on a year as WS champs and all the gate, some merch, lots of publicity. Then you still have that terrible MASN situation. We know that plays a role in their decision making. 

 

The extension gets progressively more expensive as less years of arbitration are replaced by the extension.  If your top money, whatever that is, is not sufficient to get the deal done this winter, then you should probably trade him in a rebuild. 

 

You could justify holding onto him for one more year to see if the market landscape changes, surprising amount of prospects will have a tremendously accelerated development, and/or you plan to spend copious amounts of money during Soto's last two years to try to contend.  Otherwise, you're diminishing the potential value of Soto's trade return for meaningless 5-10 wins in rebuilding years.

[@DCGoldPants]

53 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

The extension gets progressively more expensive as less years of arbitration are replaced by the extension.  If your top money, whatever that is, is not sufficient to get the deal done this winter, then you should probably trade him in a rebuild. 

 

You could justify holding onto him for one more year to see if the market landscape changes, surprising amount of prospects will have a tremendously accelerated development, and/or you plan to spend copious amounts of money during Soto's last two years to try to contend.  Otherwise, you're diminishing the potential value of Soto's trade return for meaningless 5-10 wins in rebuilding years.

Today. Publicly. You offer him the biggest deal in history. 13-15 years. 

 

And 5-10 year rebuilds? They just had a decade of being competitive. 3rd best record over that decade out of all MLB. 

[bearrock]

17 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

Today. Publicly. You offer him the biggest deal in history. 13-15 years. 

 

I doubt you'll find any fan argue against this.  Though public pressure only works if the contract an actual no brainer (clearly above market AAV and no deferred money).  

 

Quote

And 5-10 year rebuilds? They just had a decade of being competitive. 3rd best record over that decade out of all MLB.

 

And the bill has come due.  It's one thing to go back to being competitive in 2 years, it's another to actually contend.  The stars would need to align or Lerners would need to spend outlandish money for them to build back enough to a point where Soto's likely last year in DC is a meaningful year of contention.  

[@DCGoldPants]

Just now, bearrock said:

 

And the bill has come due.  It's one thing to go back to being competitive in 2 years, it's another to actually contend.  The stars would need to align or Lerners would need to spend outlandish money for them to build back enough to a point where Soto's likely last year in DC is a meaningful year of contention.  

 

Would you trade this for not having to rebuild? 

 

I wouldn't. Trading all those farm system pieces was 100% the right move because it worked. If it didn't, we'd be complaining about it. 

[mammajamma]

Definitely a little tough seeing dodgers fans on Twitter last night, watching Trea for the first time, saying they "need 10 more Treas" and that he's "already the best player on the team". And then reading the article that Trea loved DC and didn't want to leave until he saw that Max was excited.

 

I think Riz has earned the benefit of the doubt by now though.

[bearrock]

3 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Would you trade this for not having to rebuild? 

 

I wouldn't. Trading all those farm system pieces was 100% the right move because it worked. If it didn't, we'd be complaining about it. 

 

I'm not sure what in my posts gave you the idea that I would trade the WS win for not having to rebuild.  My point pertains to where in the trajectory of the rebuild we're at and what makes sense with regards to Soto in terms of a trade as well as the timing of making that decision.  What does the WS ring have anything to do with those topics?

 

(Is there some hoard of Nats fan who are saying that we shouldn't have gone all in on contention so that we wouldn't have to rebuild?  If so, why am I getting arguments flung at me in response to their idiocy?)

[Ball Security]

3 hours ago, bearrock said:

 

It's a little vague.  Turner said he told the Nats that he'd talk about an extension whenever, but it didn't happen.  That doesn't have a time frame on it (literally, it would mean it never happened ever.  But he could also mean that it never happened recently, such as after March 2020 to now).

 

We heard directly from Rizzo that the two camps talked numbers in spring 2020, so I'm inclined to lean towards the latter rather than the former.

 

I'm curious.  What odds would you give on Nats extending Soto?  And at what odds would you say they should trade him?

Probably under 40%. They should offer 12/450 this offseason and make him turn it down.

 

I wouldn’t entertain a trade until a year out like Mookie and Bos.

[@DCGoldPants]

2 hours ago, bearrock said:

 

What does the WS ring have anything to do with those topics?

 

It's everything. The people who built that team are the people rebuilding. The cost was high. The bill was due. We agree.

 

We all want to keep Soto. Agree there too. Boras rarely takes deals before free agency. You still try to extend him even if it's overpaying now in 2021.

 

The trajectory is what right now? They tried to run it back. It didn't work. They pivoted within 2 seasons to get back to competing. I appreciate that. 

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

It's everything. The people who built that team are the people rebuilding. The cost was high. The bill was due. We agree.

 

We all want to keep Soto. Agree there too. Boras rarely takes deals before free agency. You still try to extend him even if it's overpaying now in 2021.

 

The trajectory is what right now? They tried to run it back. It didn't work. They pivoted within 2 seasons to get back to competing. I appreciate that. 

 

The WS ring doesn't have role in assessing the approximate length it will take to rebuild nor does it have any role in our likelihood of resigning Soto.  Most real Nats fan are (or at least should be) in support of a rebuild.  And support doing everything possible to resign Soto at the same time.  That's not the question.  But reality is that path to actual contention in 2-3 years is a long shot and contending beyond that time frame without Soto would require either lot of money in FA or getting back a King's ransom in return for Soto.  That's not to say that somehow avoiding that situation by not winning in 2019 would have been the preferable scenario, obviously not.  But the current situation is what it is.  

[@DCGoldPants]

58 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

The WS ring doesn't have role in assessing the approximate length it will take to rebuild nor does it have any role in our likelihood of resigning Soto.  Most real Nats fan are (or at least should be) in support of a rebuild.  And support doing everything possible to resign Soto at the same time.  That's not the question.  But reality is that path to actual contention in 2-3 years is a long shot and contending beyond that time frame without Soto would require either lot of money in FA or getting back a King's ransom in return for Soto.  That's not to say that somehow avoiding that situation by not winning in 2019 would have been the preferable scenario, obviously not.  But the current situation is what it is.  

What are you basing your assessment off of? 2-3 years? They contended and fell short for years in the playoffs. It took spending of pitching, clutch veterans like Howie and then a total out of nowhere like Soto getting called up before Robles because of an injury. The happenstance that was required on top of building a solid foundation was unreal. 

 

This offseason will be telling. Where they spend should be a hint on their expected time frame. 

[bearrock]

40 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

What are you basing your assessment off of? 2-3 years? They contended and fell short for years in the playoffs. It took spending of pitching, clutch veterans like Howie and then a total out of nowhere like Soto getting called up before Robles because of an injury. The happenstance that was required on top of building a solid foundation was unreal. 

 

They have 60 mil committed to Stras and Corbin the next two years and 70 mil in 2024.  Add Soto's last year of arbitration, that's nearly a 100 mil among three players, two of which are huge question marks in terms of production in 2024 as of now.  They added a lot of promising/solid prospects at the deadline, but overcoming potentially 70 mil in dead money in two years an awfully tall task.

 

Either the young arms will have to develop at a fast rate or Stras and Corbin will have to show something in 2024

 

Quote

This offseason will be telling. Where they spend should be a hint on their expected time frame. 

 

I agree