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Moose & Squirrel v Boris & Natasha: what's the deal with the rooskies and trumpland?

Jumbo

By Jumbo
in The Tailgate

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No Excuses

No Excuses

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Perhaps you missed the point when I said "I cant, we can".

 

"We" can't either. It literally will not work.

 

Third parties are not viable in the US. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

 

"We" will always have two options:

 

1. A binary choice between two electable candidates

 

2. Wasting your vote on a third party candidate, without having any influence on the electoral system.

 

The only way third parties are viable in the US is if we fundamentally change how we hold our elections.

Edited by No Excuses
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Bozo the kKklown

Bozo the kKklown

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

And he wss for me and many others.  My point is that doesnt mean you have to vote Dem.  Especially if tha Dems views are too far left for your own centrists views.

In this case, you have too because the others were not viable candidates.

 

And if the Dems are far too left for your liking, then you probably aren't a true centrist and is doing this for attention. Which was why I quoted @visionary with your post.

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

.

 

And if the Dems are far too left for your liking, then you probably aren't a true centrist and is doing this for attention. Which was why I quoted @visionary with your post.

Im sorry you feel that way.  But feeling that way doesnt make it so.

29 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

"We" can't either. It literally will not work.

 

Third parties are not viable in the US. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

 

"We" will always have two options:

 

1. A binary choice between two electable candidates

 

2. Wasting your vote on a third party candidate, without having any influence on the electoral system.

 

The only way third parties are viable in the US is if we fundamentally change how we hold our elections.

From your link:

 

Quote

In political science, Duverger's law holds that plurality-rule elections (such as first past the post) structured within single-member districts tend to favor a two-party system

Tend to favor does not mean not possible.

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bearrock

bearrock

Posted
Posted (edited)

Didn't Bernie Sanders win as an independent in his first election over GOP and Dem candidates? EDITED: US house that is.

 

If Kasich runs as an independent in 2020, maybe he'd have a shot depending on who carries the banner for Dems. 

 

I think the question is whether multi party system would be preferable to the current two party system (I tend to think it would be).

Edited by bearrock
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No Excuses

No Excuses

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Tend to favor does not mean not possible.

 

It is the wording of social scientists who will rarely make definitive claims. 

 

All of US history tells us that this system even in the worst of times is incapable of supporting more than two parties at a time.

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No Excuses

No Excuses

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, bearrock said:

Didn't Bernie Sanders win as an independent in his first election over GOP and Dem candidates? EDITED: US house that is.

 

Bernie essentially phased out Democrats and made them unviable when running against him. Hence he ran pretty much unopposed since then with the Democratic Party not supporting challengers against him.

 

Our system will always correct for this. 

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TheGreatBuzz

TheGreatBuzz

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

It is the wording of social scientists who will rarely make definitive claims. 

 

All of US history tells us that this system even in the worst of times is incapable of supporting more than two parties at a time.

So you post a link that says it isnt possible.  I point out the link doesnt say that.  So you refer to history?  History is a poor source for saying what isnt possible, only showing what hasnt happened yet. History told us it was impossible for trump to get elected.

 

Anyways, point being not that we need a 3rd party per se bit that just voting team is a mistake 

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No Excuses

No Excuses

Posted
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So you post a link that says it isnt possible.  I point out the link doesnt say that.  So you refer to history?  History is a poor source for saying what isnt possible, only showing what hasnt happened yet. History told us it was impossible for trump to get elected.

 

Anyways, point being not that we need a 3rd party per se bit that just voting team is a mistake 

 

These are choices between prioritizing our system of democracy and the validity of our institutions over petty political differences. 

 

This is the aspect of this debate that I do not think you are grasping. We are long past the right vs left debate in this country.

 

This is a question of voting for basic decency and restoring a sense of normality to our system. 

 

We are literally beating a dead horse at this point so I am done with this. This brand of centrism is pretty much synonymous with moral cowardice and an inability to look beyond yourself.

Edited by No Excuses
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No Excuses

No Excuses

Posted
Posted (edited)

To put it more clearly: if the ideologies were reversed and the left had elected a dangerous goon to the Presidency, who was hell bent on destroying and polluting our institutions of democracy and governing, I would have no problem voting for Republicans. 

 

Preserving our shared rules of decency, rationality and governing trumps any ideological differences across the progressive/conservative spectrum. 

Edited by No Excuses
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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Its nothing personal.  I know plenty of people who vote R, D, and 3rd all on the same ballot.  What gets me is people acting as though someone who doesnt vote straight D is the problem here.  Many people vote according to the issues they feel strongest about.  If neither candidate is acceptable, they may choose write in.  This "team voting" for either side is how we have gotten into this ****ed up situation in the first place, in my opinion.  

 

These are not ordinary times.   The current GOP is a rotten pumpkin.  You have to throw in the compost for an election or two so that actual honest conservatives with actual honest conservative ideas can get back behind the wheel.  

 

This is not because the Democrats are without fault.  It is because the GOP has utterly lost its way.  

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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Only as long as we the people allow it.  You are right though, I cant reinvent it.  Only WE can.  

 

We would need a constitutional amendment.   Our constitution is structured from top to bottom for 2 parties and only two parties. 

 

Sometimes, when things are dire enough, people have to get off of their centrist asses and vote against the scoundrels, so they will find it necessary to be less scoundrel-y in order to earn back your centrist vote..  

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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So you post a link that says it isnt possible.  I point out the link doesnt say that.  So you refer to history?  History is a poor source for saying what isnt possible, only showing what hasnt happened yet. History told us it was impossible for trump to get elected.

 

Anyways, point being not that we need a 3rd party per se bit that just voting team is a mistake 

 

30 years ago, I wrote my batchelor's thesis in part on this very subject.  You can wishful think all you want for a third party option, but it isn't going to happen unless it replaces one of the other parties.  

 

You know what?  If people truly want a new party option, the best way for that to happen would be for everyone to vote Democrat for a couple of elections.  If the abomination that is the current GOP loses all political support, a replacement will rise up quickly from the ashes.  We can't have multiple parties in our system, but the system won't let a single party dominate for too long either. 

 

The USA is like the Sith. 

 

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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

The question is also should you only vote party or judge each candidate based on their own merits.  

 

 

The question is whether you punish a party that has gone insane and clearly needs a housecleaning, regardless of how you feel about their current stance on some issues.   You don't have to become a Democrat. 

 

If you are "too centrist" do that, I think you have lost your way.   Or you are not really a centrist, but just play one on TV.

 

 

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

Oh **** you're old

 

I had no idea

 

lol  it was actually 33 years ago.

 

And I know exactly what I am talking about on this particular subject.

Edited by Predicto
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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Say there are three parties. For the presidential election, the number of electoral votes ends up being

 

Candidate 1: 264

Candidate 2: 186

Candidate 3: 88

 

Who is president?

 

The house of representatives decides, using one vote per state.  In other words, the Republican will win, because the GOP controls so many smaller, low population states.   

 

And by the next election, the third party will have had its ideas and voters absorbed by one of the existing parties, or it will be far down the road in the process of replacing that existing party.    Bull Moose Party, anyone?

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