ESPN: Colin Kaepernick protests anthem due to treatment of minorities

[pjfootballer]

Blackballed- no.

 

But I think 2 and 3 go hand in hand.  I think that Kap is good enough to play in this league.  If he was a top 10 QB in the league, he would be on a team regardless of what he did and life would go on.  As one of you said, there are guys all over the league that have done worse (DUIs, beating, stealing, etc.), yet have a job because they are considered a top player at their position. Now, I don't think Kap sucks, but I don't think his play is good/great enough to warrant the distractions that would go with it.  Hence, how 2 and 3 go hand in hand.

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Question:  do you think his talent is enough to offset the distraction he would be?

 

I can think of a few teams out there that could easily answer yes.  For me personally, esteemed football mind that I am :), the answer is no.  He's inaccurate with poor touch and a slow release and, for all his speed, he lacks the elusiveness that a guy like Wilson has.  

 

Everybody bringing up DUIs and off the field violence is doing a straw-man thing.  Neither of those are a distraction along the lines of the Kap situation.  Kap is a NATIONAL MEDIA EVENT.

[TheGreatBuzz]

46 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

I can think of a few teams out there that could easily answer yes.  For me personally, esteemed football mind that I am :), the answer is no.  He's inaccurate with poor touch and a slow release and, for all his speed, he lacks the elusiveness that a guy like Wilson has.  

 

Everybody bringing up DUIs and off the field violence is doing a straw-man thing.  Neither of those are a distraction along the lines of the Kap situation.  Kap is a NATIONAL MEDIA EVENT.

I agree.  I dont doubt that he is talented.  He is certainly a better QB than I am.  I just dont think he is talented ENOUGH to be worth the distraction.  And, to me, that os not being blackballed.  That is just a cost/benefit analysis.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Bill Barnwell on Kaepernick situation:

Quote

If you don't agree with all of that and believe that there's still a historically significant dearth of quarterbacks and problem with quality of play in 2017, you're entitled to your opinion. If that's true, though, it's close to impossible to make an argument against Colin Kaepernick starting for a handful of NFL teams right now, let alone being on an NFL roster. For whatever flaws Kaepernick has as a quarterback, a look at history suggests that there hasn't been a single quarterback in the post-merger modern NFL to play like Kaepernick did in 2016 without getting another shot at a job afterward.

 

Let's leave aside Kaepernick's abilities as a runner -- which are still significant, given that he led all quarterbacks in rushing DYAR and was fourth in rushing DVOA last season -- and ignore his two-plus excellent seasons as a quarterback under Jim Harbaugh, both of which would be treated as reasons to shell out millions on any other quarterback's résumé. Instead, let's simply look at what Kaepernick did last season under Chip Kelly on a frustratingly bad 49ers team while throwing to Jeremy Kerley, Quinton Patton and Garrett Celek as his most targeted receivers. (They've combined for four catches through two weeks in 2017.)

 

The best simple metric for quarterbacks using raw stats is adjusted net yards per attempt (ANY/A), which is essentially a supercharged passer rating with better coefficients and sacks incorporated. Pro-Football-Reference.com provides index statistics that allow you to compare a quarterback's numbers to players from his era and scales them to a 100-point system through standard deviations above and below the mean. Kaepernick's 2016 ANY/A+, the index statistic for ANY/A, was a 97. He was one-fifth of one standard deviation below the mean as compared to every other 2016 quarterback, finishing 23rd among 31 qualifying quarterbacks in the category.

 

It's rare for a young quarterback who gets regular reps in the NFL in any given season to finish his career without getting at least another shot or two. How rare? I went looking for quarterbacks who had not yet hit their 30s and threw 200 passes or more in a season without ever playing again. Kaepernick will turn 30 in November, so 2016 was his age-29 season.

 

There are only 14 other quarterbacks besides Kaepernick to do that in NFL history, not including other passers from 2016 who were hired elsewhere (such as Osweiler and Matt Barkley) or Teddy Bridgewater, whose future is uncertain after a catastrophic knee injury. Kaepernick's 97 ANY/A+ was third best among the group, but even if he'd played worse in 2016, it shouldn't have mattered. Every one of them had an excuse for ending their career without getting another shot at an NFL job that wouldn't apply for Kaepernick.

Six of the quarterbacks suffered career-ending or career-shortening injuries, including Neil Lomax (arthritic hip), Steve Ramsey (double ankle surgery), Tim Couch (rotator cuff), Heath Shuler (repeated foot injuries) and Gary Marangi (shoulder). Pat Haden suffered a knee injury and retired while rehabbing the injury to take a broadcasting job. Johnny Manziel and JaMarcus Russell left the league amid substance-abuse issues. Kaepernick would not fit into either of these categories.

 

The other six quarterbacks -- each with a fraction of Kaepernick's résumé and a less impressive final season as a regular quarterback -- were given one or more opportunities to sign with an NFL team but never made it back onto the field for a regular-season pass. Joey Harrington, Mike McMahon, Cade McNown, John Skelton, Craig Whelihan and Randy Wright each went to training camp with one or more teams without making it onto the field. This was also true of some of the injured players. Consider that Marangi went 0-7 as a starter and set a still-standing league record for lowest career completion percentage. The Packers still tried to trade for him, only to be rebuffed when Marangi failed a physical. The Browns signed Marangi anyway.

 

The other arguments about Kaepernick's on-field abilities are flimsy. He isn't a great pocket passer, but he has posted a totally reasonable in-pocket passer rating of 87.6 over the past three seasons, better than plenty of other backup types who racked up millions of dollars in contracts this offseason. Teams might want a quarterback who knows their system having gone through camp, but in a league in which Jacoby Brissett can go from Patriots third-stringer to Colts starter in eight days, it's hard to believe Kaepernick can't even make his way onto a roster whatsoever.

 

The 49ers were 4-20 in Kaepernick's final 24 starts, which is a totally arbitrary end point but admittedly not good. They also allowed an average of 27.5 points per game in those starts. It's fair to wonder why a bad record would keep Kaepernick out of the league, while Josh McCown, who was 2-22 in his most recent 24 starts before this season, signed a one-year, $6 million deal with the Jets. The best argument is that McCown would somehow be a useful mentor to Bryce Petty and Christian Hackenberg, which ignores the reality that McCown's list of pupils hasn't exactly been impressive.

 

There's no on-field precedent for a quarterback as active as Kaepernick to linger in free agency without a job after serving as a regular quarterback the previous season, let alone one as effective. The reasons Kaepernick is unemployed right now have to be off-field, then, and they're also filled with holes. The word "distraction" is tossed around as some vague catchall, but Kelly told Adam Schefter that Kaepernick and his decision to protest was "zero distraction" to the team last year.

 

If the idea is that Kaepernick will continue to draw attention for protesting the national anthem, that also doesn't hold up. It was reported in March that Kaepernick would stand for the anthem in the future. Furthermore, players around the league have continued to kneel or sit during the anthem without repercussions or any notable public outcry in 2017, including Eric Reid, Marshawn Lynch and Michael Bennett, the latter of whom was the subject of a pregame rally before Sunday's 49ers-Seahawks game. The rally also showed support for Kaepernick, once a Seattle arch-nemesis.

 

The other anecdotal arguments haven't held up. Kaepernick has continued to make steady donations to charity to hit the $1 million donation target he set last year. There were questions about whether Kaepernick wanted to play, but firsthand reports on Sunday revealed that Kaepernick wants to play football and is in shape to suit up.

 

Kaepernick himself denied suggestions that his salary demands were preventing him from finding a new team, although it's hard to believe that a league which offers Jay Cutler $10 million a year to come out of retirement after being benched and cut by the Bears couldn't justify paying Kaepernick millions. Concerns about any financial hit after a Kaepernick signing don't make sense given that the vast majority of each team's income comes from fixed television rights, while Kaepernick still ranked 39th in jersey sales in August despite being a free agent.

 

It's true that you can find current players like LeSean McCoy and Joe Thomaswho disagree about Kaepernick and suggest that he would be a distraction and isn't good enough to overcome whatever attention he might bring to a team. (McCoy also suggested that Michael Vick was 10 times the quarterback Kaepernick once was, which doesn't exactly lend credence to his case.) It's also true that both Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers have come out in recent weeks and expressed their surprise that Kaepernick isn't employed, and they're pretty qualified to talk about modern quarterback play.

 

There just isn't a strong enough case for teams to pass on Kaepernick, given the desperate public outcries for useful quarterbacks and the nature of his protests. Even if you disagree with his stance, it's bizarre to contrast his peaceful political dissent as a crime that should keep him off rosters in a league in which even marginal players embroiled with confirmed or alleged incidences of domestic and/or sexual assault can sustain careers.

 

Watching so many NFL teams willfully make ignorant choices and then complain about the lack of quarterback options while leaving a clearly qualified candidate on the sidelines makes it seem like the quality of decision-making in the modern NFL is far worse than the quality of play.

 

 

Like I said, you can bury your head in the sand and pretend its something else but its really clear what is happening and the NFL has made dude into a martyr.

[TheGreatBuzz]

11 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Bill Barnwell on Kaepernick situation:

 

 

Like I said, you can bury your head in the sand and pretend its something else but its really clear what is happening and the NFL has made dude into a martyr.

Out of curiosity, why do you think Kap is being blackballed but other players who have refused to stand still have jobs?

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Out of curiosity, why do you think Kap is being blackballed but other players who have refused to stand still have jobs?

when you are the first to stand, you usually get the most flack. That happens in most protestations against injustice.

 

Kaepernick is no exception. Bomani Jones was on The Combat Jack show a few weeks ago, and he made a great point about this. When Kaepernick did this last year, he was 1st and he was not "granted" permission. It was a shock to the system. These other players have now gotten that go ahead.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

when you are the first to stand, you usually get the most flack. That happens in most protestations against injustice.

 

Kaepernick is no exception. Bomani Jones was on The Combat Jack show a few weeks ago, and he made a great point about this. When Kaepernick did this last year, he was 1st and he was not "granted" permission. It was a shock to the system. These other players have now gotten that go ahead.

So you believe it is soley the not standing thing that has caused him to be jobless?

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

So you believe it is soley the not standing thing that has caused him to be jobless?

There is no other reason. Go look at Barnwell's article that I quoted. What is happening to Kaepernick is unprecedented in the modern NFL. Barnwell actually cited stats.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

There is no other reason. Go look at Barnwell's article that I quoted. What is happening to Kaepernick is unprecedented in the modern NFL. Barnwell actually cited stats.

I read the article.  I believe his analyis is wrong.  But thats the great thing about opinions........

[Bozo the kKklown]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

I read the article.  I believe his analyis is wrong.  But thats the great thing about opinions........

of course you do. You don't have anything to back it up except whats in your "gut."

 

But thats this country now. We don't like actual data and analysis. We listen to our "gut."

 

Like I said before, if he were signed by someone to be a back up and stood for the anthem like everyone else, this "distraction" goes away after the 1st preseason game.

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

of course you do. You don't have anything to back it up except whats in your "gut."

 

But thats this country now. We don't like actual data and analysis. We listen to our "gut."

 

Like I said before, if he were signed by someone to be a back up and stood for the anthem like everyone else, this "distraction" goes away after the 1st preseason game.

Im sorry.  Please show me the PROOF that not standing is the ONLY reason his is not signed.  I must have missed it when it publicly announced by each GM that was their reason.  Or is it just you assumption (or gut) that is the sole reason?  

 

Edit:  oh and please provide proof it wouldnt be an issue after the first game.  Or is that just your gut?

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Please show me the PROOF that not standing is the ONLY reason his is not signed.

Barnwell's article, which shows data and analysis that Kaepernick's situation is unprecedented and literally has not happened in the modern enough should be enough. But keep your head in the sand. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

Barnwell's article, which shows data and analysis that Kaepernick's situation is unprecedented and literally has not happened in the modern enough should be enough. But keep your head in the sand. 

It shows stats attempting to prove he should be good enough to have a job.  No where did I see direct quotes from all GMs saying that is why they havent signed him.  He drew that inference.  That is not proof.

Amd i edited that last post with another question for you also.

[Bozo the kKklown]

14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

It shows stats attempting to prove he should be good enough to have a job.  No where did I see direct quotes from all GMs saying that is why they havent signed him.  He drew that inference.  That is not proof.

Amd i edited that last post with another question for you also.

So Jeff Sessions isnt a racist because he didnt say "black people can die in hell?"

 

We don't have evidence of police killing black people in this country, unjustified, because most of them do not say "we want to kill black people."

 

Or the plight of reservations in this country, even though no one in any government position over the last 40-50 years has formally said that we do not care about Native American people.

 

Is that what we are doing now? If so, then have at that. If you need things to be spelled out that way then you are a lost cause. Good luck to you.

[TradeTheBeal!]

As a pocket passer, Cutler is 10 times the player that Kap is and is absolutely worth $10 million a year to the Dolphins.  Article above is solid but shoe-horning Cutler in there really hurts his credibility.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

As a pocket passer, Cutler is 10 times the player that Kap is and is absolutely worth $10 million a year to the Dolphins.  Article above is solid but shoe-horning Cutler in there really hurts his credibility.

a) Cutler is not worth that amount

2) Cutler was retired and working on TV as the Bears kicked him out before the Dolphins asked him to come back 

 

The point of that passage wasnt to say that Cutler doesnt deserve a job, but to say do not make Kaepernick's continued unemployment an issue of what his asking price would be.

 

 

Also, here is the link to the entire article. It is actually about the quality of the league and QB play.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx170918/nfl-quality-play-worse-2017-colin-kaepernick-make-better

[TradeTheBeal!]

13 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

a) Cutler is not worth that amount

2) Cutler was retired and working on TV as the Bears kicked him out before the Dolphins asked him to come back 

 

The point of that passage wasnt to say that Cutler doesnt deserve a job, but to say do not make Kaepernick's continued unemployment an issue of what his asking price would be.

 

 

Also, here is the link to the entire article. It is actually about the quality of the league and QB play.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/Barnwellx170918/nfl-quality-play-worse-2017-colin-kaepernick-make-better

 

Cutler isn't helping your argument either.  And since we don't know anything about Kaps salary demands, that's another straw man...but I'm not sure he's even worth Vet Min anyway.

 

Look, Kap is a terrible pocket QB with a ton of baggage and drama.  I agree he's being blackballed but that's really only saving him from further embarrassment...not unlike RG3 in strange way.  

 

It's time to think about life after football.  4-20 should be all the hint you need.

[Bang]

Man, you definitely ignore some MAJOR things when assessing it's all just a blackball issue.

the absolute fact of the media circus ripping at a team is a big gigantic huge reason why he's so toxic right now. this isn't a supposition, this is a fact.  He's not even on a TEAM and players are asked about him. 

In Miami,, what a player is worth to a team is between them and their agent, and that notwithstanding, the absolute FACT is that in Miami, aside from the big huge media crush that comes with him, his pro-Castro stance will NOT go unpunished in a city full of Cuban ex-apts who HATE Castro, and would prefer to go to a soccer game anyway.

the Dolphins have a hard time drawing fans already..  ignoring Kaep's politics aside from the flag and how it would affect them is plain ignorance, either willful or just of not knowing that particular situation. Having the Cuban population of Miami mobilized against them could damage the team in ways that can't be measured on the field.

(AND aside from the Cuban issue..Cutler knows the offense already. He played in it for the head coach. He doesn't need to learn the language or playbook.  Miami in an emergency situation had a gift  they could not pass up in that Cutler was available, and in shape.)

Now, Minnesota,,  this I could see as a possibility IF there is going to be one. Up there he could possibly blend in quietly, and the weather will keep some of the media crush down. 

 

But to say blackballing him politically is the only reason he's not on a roster just plain ignores the realities of why teams aren't talking to him. Talent gets a pass, period, regardless of the bad PR. It always has, and it always will. The fact he isn't playing is because he doesn't bring enough to warrant the distraction and very real damage it can cause a team. If he plays anywhere it will be as a backup, and the fact is NOBODY wants to hear from the backup QB ever unless he has to start. But not him. He will be front and center, the most famous backup on earth, and every one of his teammates are going to have to deal with answering questions about their backup QB and what he said today, or last year...., and all it will take is one guy after a bad practice to tell the media to shut the **** up about Colin Kaepernick and it will all shatter. And the media will do absolutely everything it can to produce that one player. That one player who disagrees is a platinum card with no limit. He's a mountain of money. They will pry him out.

These are realities. heavy ones, and they cannot be ignored and expect to see the truth.

 

~Bang

 

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Thanks Bang for saying better what I was too lazy to type out on my phone.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I agree he's being blackballed but that's really only saving him from further embarrassment...not unlike RG3 in strange way.

then let him further embarrass himself, no one said Kaepernick is great

 

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

4-20 should be all the hint you need.

Josh McNown got a 6 million dollar salary contract this offseason and is 2-22 in his last 24 starts

 

53 minutes ago, Bang said:

He's not even on a TEAM and players are asked about him. 

And like I said prior, if he was signed this summer and played his first preseason game where he stands for the flag, this story is dead in August.

 

59 minutes ago, Bang said:

The fact he isn't playing is because he doesn't bring enough to warrant the distraction and very real damage it can cause a team

what damage? Chip Kelly said he was not a distraction.

The 49ers players said he was not a distraction. Its made up hysteria.

 

 

Like I said before, you all can pretend that its one way, but its the other. In a few years, the NFL will look bad for this.

[TradeTheBeal!]

God bless ya, @BenningRoadSkin.  I hope you're able to put this behind you sooner rather than later.  There are bigger and better causes out there.

[Bang]

"What damage".

 

~Dang

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

God bless ya, @BenningRoadSkin.  I hope you're able to put this behind you sooner rather than later.  There are bigger and better causes out there.

Its already behind me. Kaepernick's career is over.

 

The thing now is that a lot of people will be saying "we were wrong" down the line on this.

 

What is entertaining is the mental gymnastics people are embarking to justify what the NFL and its teams are doing.

[TheGreatBuzz]

30 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Its already behind me. Kaepernick's career is over.

 

The thing now is that a lot of people will be saying "we were wrong" down the line on this.

 

What is entertaining is the mental gymnastics people are embarking to justify what the NFL and its teams are doing.

Is there ever a time where you realize that the vast majority of people disagree with you and you admit that maybe, possibly you are wrong?

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Is there ever a time where you realize that the vast majority of people disagree with you and you admit that maybe, possibly you are wrong?

The amount of times you could go throughout history on big moments where people were shown to be wrong over time, lol.

 

This is a silly statement.