twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm saying killing 2000 mostly innocent women and children is a despicable act. And despicable acts don't bring Israel any closer to peace or security. seems a rather biased assessment....or just the usual bad grammar They shoulda called Kerry the diplomatic dwarf....Brazil isn't worth replying to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Again I ask, what's happening now that's worse for Israel? Anything more than empty rhetoric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The current leaders in Egypt are Mubarak's boys. The guys who have been upholding the Gaza blockade since 2006 and been at peace with Israel since 1976.. At least when they were in power. If this Egyptian regime unilaterally breaks the embargo Israel has imposed on Gaza then that's a huge deal.. And they've been very well paid, for being nice to Israel, for decades, too. Let's revisit the strafing analogy. Every day your neighbor drives by your house and empties their cartridge. You hear them coming and so you and your family hide in the basement. No one gets killed. This goes on every day for five years. Is it truly your contention that the non stop attacks did "nothing" to you, your family, your house? And you speak of callousness. Callous, I would certainly agree fits. However, if your neighbor has been doing this every day for five years, and you've been putting up with it for five years, and then you decide to blow up his house, while he and his family are asleep in it, then your claim of self defense may have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And therein lies the problem, Larry. Israel is acting in a monstrous way to a monstrous situation. I don't know that they can be asked to simply put up with it although time and again I think that's what's asked of them and that's what they do until they reach their breaking point and strike back. When they do they are roundly condemned and many pretend that the last six months of attacks didn't happen or is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Talk is cheap. Is Israel in better or worse shape then they were prior to this? Is it possible that Hamas and Israel's position both have not materially been affected? That in less something surprising happens in the near future, eventually Israel will halt the offensive, and then at some point after that rockets will go back to being fired into Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And they've been very well paid, for being nice to Israel, for decades, too. Callous, I would certainly agree fits. However, if your neighbor has been doing this every day for five years, and you've been putting up with it for five years, and then you decide to blow up his house, while he and his family are asleep in it, then your claim of self defense may have a problem. The Palestinians have been well paid as well, their leaders seem to amass Billions amid the destruction If I post a notice and send a messenger I'm gonna blow up your house if you do it again........what then? Are you innocent or complicit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And therein lies the problem, Larry. Israel is acting in a monstrous way to a monstrous situation. I don't know that they can be asked to simply put up with it although time and again I think that's what's asked of them and that's what they do until they reach their breaking point and strike back. When they do they are roundly condemned and many pretend that the last six months of attacks didn't happen or is irrelevant. They're being asked to put up with it because they've not shown any way to actually deal with the problem by NOT putting up with it. At some point in time, it is time to try something else. And unless you are willing to actually go all out and literally destroy the ability of the Palestinians (or Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever) to strike at you, which even you don't seem to support, then the other option is to make a real committed long term effort to put up with it. The Palestinians have been well paid as well, their leaders seem to amass Billions amid the destruction If I post a notice and send a messenger I'm gonna blow up your house if you do it again........what then? Are you innocent or complicit? The difference between what the Palestinians have been paid and what the Egyptians have been paid is orders of magnitudes different. Yes the Palestinian leaders have done well for themselves in some cases, but the difference between them is not really comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Neither group wants the single state solution. It is very important for Israel to remain a "Jewish" state. It's the only one in the world and given its history of persecution... a histroy that goes back centuries if not millenia having a home is viewed as impossible to give up. If the Palestinians would go for a one state solution, but agree that Israel remain a "Jewish" state they would certainly go for it, but the Palestinians would never and really shouldn't agree to be second class citizens. The two state solution should be viable. The big problem is where do you put the borders, how do you handle security and safety, and Israel's right to exist. The biggest obstacle there is really trust. Neither side has any faith in the other and both sides have been guilty of breaking agreements. That leaves us with three which is the wash, rince, and repeat problem that we are stuck in. Thanks for the response. I'm thinking people (myself included no doubt) should focus less on who is to blame and more on a long term fix. I'm not at all sure what that fix would look like and how it would work, but I also think staying the course is a crappy option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The difference between what the Palestinians have been paid and what the Egyptians have been paid is orders of magnitudes different. Yes the Palestinian leaders have done well for themselves in some cases, but the difference between them is not really comparable. The conditions attached are orders of magnitude different as well.but If ya wish to say Carter was a spendthrift ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thanks for the response. I'm thinking people (myself included no doubt) should focus less on who is to blame and more on a long term fix. I'm not at all sure what that fix would look like and how it would work, but I also think staying the course is a crappy option. It's been addressed on a macro scale as well as here in a micro scale. The sticking points will always be- What will the boundaries be And Can the Palestinians arm themselves I see zero chance those two issue will ever be resolved through negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Thanks for the response. I'm thinking people (myself included no doubt) should focus less on who is to blame and more on a long term fix. I'm not at all sure what that fix would look like and how it would work, but I also think staying the course is a crappy option. Oh, I think everybody knows that the only possible resolution to this, (well, the only one that doesn't involve genocide), is a two state system, based on, I think it's the '67 borders? The pesky details are things like how long Israel will maintain an embargo on weapons, and things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Has Israel ever said they'd be willing to go back to 67 borders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Has Israel ever said they'd be willing to go back to 67 borders? I suspect Israel would not go back t the '67 borders unless there was a real stick from the US involved (i.e. go back to the '67 borders or see a massive reduction in your aid), but realistically I think that's the solution. And maybe even further back in time with respect to the borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I suspect Israel would not go back t the '67 borders unless there was a real stick from the US involved (i.e. go back to the '67 borders or see a massive reduction in your aid). Probably need a bigger stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Probably need a bigger stick We'll also stop paying the Egyptians to not attack you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My instinct says end apartheid. Palestinians have equal rights as citizens of Israel. Something like the South African model. Truth and reconciliation, that sort of thing. Admittedly I don't know much about the situation, so maybe I'm missing something. I get the feeling people don't think that will work. Why wouldn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My instinct says end apartheid. Palestinians have equal rights as citizens of Israel. Something like the South African model. Truth and reconciliation, that sort of thing. Admittedly I don't know much about the situation, so maybe I'm missing something. I get the feeling people don't think that will work. Why wouldn't it? The Isrealis don't want it because they want a Jewish state and as soon as that happen, it will no longer be a Jewish state, especially if you end up with a lot of Palestanians returning. It CAN happen, but it is going to take a tremendous amount of concerted international effort/pressure- like in S. Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 We'll also stop paying the Egyptians to not attack you? attacking hasn't worked out too well for anyone so far..... the Egyptians certainly got a bloody nose for that foolishness. you negotiate like Kerry the dwarf, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 attacking hasn't worked out too well for anyone so far..... the Egyptians certainly got a bloody nose for that foolishness. you negotiate like Kerry the dwarf, Yeah, when we also supplying the Israelis a massive amount of aid, which would be the first stick. With that gone, Egypt looks a little more scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yeah, when we also supplying the Israelis a massive amount of aid, which would be the first stick. With that gone, Egypt looks a little more scary. a bit more,but the fever Nasser spread has less support in that direction....especially with Hamas soiling their bedding there. going nuclear also changes the game, especially triad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And they've been very well paid, for being nice to Israel, for decades, too. So what Israel has been better paid. Besides, fact is Egypt was a Soviet client state and was equally well paid by the Soviets for being a pain in Israel's buttocks.. So really Egypt being paid to be nice to Israel was a revenue neutral move for them. Has Israel ever said they'd be willing to go back to 67 borders? This has been an American, UN and every other country in the world which existed in 67; position since 1967.. Yes at the Taba summit, in January 2001 prime minister Barak and the Palestinians under Arafat agreed to a Clinton initiative that "in accordance with the UN Security Council Resolution 242, the 4 June 1967 lines would be the basis for the borders between Israel and the Palestinian state." see territory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit The key term here being "basis" meaning Israel reserved the right to exchange up to 3% of the land under consideration in Jerusalem in exchange for lands inside the green line ( greater Israel)... The problem is Netanyahu never agreed to it, nor Wye river, nor Oslo so basically Netanyahu wants to undo agreements made by previous governments which go back to 1993 and start over with talks... which isn't acceptable to the PA, and haven't been all that well received by the last 4 presidents either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The Isrealis don't want it because they want a Jewish state and as soon as that happen, it will no longer be a Jewish state, especially if you end up with a lot of Palestanians returning. It CAN happen, but it is going to take a tremendous amount of concerted international effort/pressure- like in S. Africa. That idea in concert with the demographic bomb going off now where the Palestinians in the lands occupied by Israel have become the majority of people there is one of the two biggest existential threats for Israel's future... The other being somebody figuring out how to put guidance systems on those rockets. And the third being Iran getting the bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My instinct says end apartheid. Palestinians have equal rights as citizens of Israel. Something like the South African model. Truth and reconciliation, that sort of thing. Admittedly I don't know much about the situation, so maybe I'm missing something. I get the feeling people don't think that will work. Why wouldn't it? because basically ISrael isn't a democracy. It's a theocracy. It's a country established and maintained along religious grounds which systemically discriminates against folks who aren't ethnically Jewish. Palestinians / Arabs are already the majority of the folks in the lands controlled by Israel (greater Israel and the occupied territories). Although not the majority of voting age yet as far as I know... So If they went to a one man one vote, Israel would cease to be a Jewish homeland. The game would be over.. One of the biggest problems then would be that Israel doesn't own any of the land in greater Israel. All that land, or most of it was taken by force of arms. If an Arab dominated Knesset reinstated land rights for the folks who had lived in Palestine and have now lived in camps for decades, many of whom still have the keys to their homes which they will show you.. It basically displaces all the Israeli's. I agree it eventually will happen if we don't get a peace deal, which hopefully is a big if. What form such a consolidation will take is still up in the air. It happened to South Africa which frankly had a much stronger, larger and more balanced economy than Israel. That has been on the horizon now sine the 80's when an Israeli researcher predicted the Jewish Israeli's becoming a minority in the lands Israel was claiming... That's what the whole Johnathan Pollard spy scandal was about. Israel selling US secrets to the Soviet Union in exchange for a million eastern European jews immigrating to Israel and setting back the demographic bomb for another decade. A million eastern European Jews at the time was 20% of the Jewish population of Israel. Only now it's been more than a decade and the demographic peak is about to reach voting age.. Here is a great article on Johnathan Pollard the Israeli spy written by Pulitzer Prize winning author Seymour Hersh. Why Pollard Should Never Be Released (The Traitor) The New Yorker Magazine | :January 18, 1999, pp. 26-33 | SEYMOUR M. HERSH http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/576453/posts Jimmy Carter discusses this in his book "Peace not Aparthied"... The demographic bomb and the choices Israel is facing, not Johnathan Pollard. Areal Sharon went from extreme far right fringe politician to actually favor a two state solution, as the party he founded Kadima still does.. Not because Sharon and Kadima are nice guys or soft on Palestinians; but because that is one strategy to defuse the demographic bomb... form a separate Palestinian state and push most of the Arabs into it; which defuses any future right to vote in Israel. Netanyahu though just can't seem to pull the string on such a deal and the clock is running down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I suspect Israel would not go back t the '67 borders unless there was a real stick from the US involved (i.e. go back to the '67 borders or see a massive reduction in your aid), but realistically I think that's the solution. And maybe even further back in time with respect to the borders. US aid for Israel was a big deal for decades. Traditionally the Israeli economy was a basket case suffering through double and often triple digit inflation (1948- early 1980s).. That began to change in the 80's when Ronald Reagan about trippled already high Israeli economikc aid to about 5 billion dollars.. then we kept it around 3.5 billion or more for 15 years (1981-2000)... The net effect though is Israel's economy today is quite strong and our annual stipend is more a luxury for Israel and no longer a necessity. At one time it was huge percentage of their national budget ( economic aid) and a sizeable percentage of their military budget... On top of that US tax payers would gift money to Israel and write it off on their US taxes... So most of the many many public works projects in Israel in the 60's, 70's and 80's could be traced back to American Largess... Again though those days are gone. Today Israel is a very strong economic country... They only need our help really when they fight "wars"... They still need us to supply them weapons in wars, refresh their stockpiles after a war, and we usually kick in some cash to help their economy out after the wars are over too... But it's not like it once was where US aid was a sizeable part of Israeli's available funds.. Israel could do without us today. It wouldn't be as easy for them and they wouldn't be able to afford US weapons perhaps; but they could probable do it... Our aid for example in 2014 $3 billion same as it was in 81 roughly.... and today the Israeli military budget is around $18.2 billion and we don't provide economic aid anymore.. so just about 16% of the IDF budget annually is what we contribute in total.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 https://twitter.com/WilliamsJon Terrible news from Gaza: 3 journalists killed this morning by UXB. Italian & 2 Palestinian journalists were with bomb disposal team. 6:24 AM 3 members of bomb disposal team also killed - very same team @mattmcgarry profiled for @ABC 48 hours ago http://abcnews.go.com/International/video/watch-bomb-removal-experts-work-gaza-24937265 … 6:27 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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