Yahoo: Israel vows no let-up, Hamas defiant, as Gaza toll tops 120

[Kilmer17]

It hasn't helped Hamas, but Palestinians have seen a huge show of support from around the world after this.

And Israel has lost a lot, especially in Britain, where they're talking about cutting off funds and weapons and the foreign minister resigned over the issue.

Talk is cheap. Is Israel in better or worse shape then they were prior to this?

[visionary]

Talk is cheap. Is Israel in better or worse shape then they were prior to this?

I think it's hard to say, since we don't know what they've accomplished militarily.

They've definitely taken a blow diplomatically from their actions.

It's unclear just how much damage they've done to the capability of Hamas and their allies ability to shoot rockets at them.

They seem to have made some progress with destroying tunnels, but it's also unclear how dangerous the tunnels truly where or if they've eliminated them all.

[Kilmer17]

What specifically have they lost diplomatically?

[visionary]

Well, they've definitely lost some influence in Britain and the Conservative coalition government there went through some serious turmoil over this.

The US was pretty critical at times too.

And Israel got into some sort sort diplomatic incident with Brazil

 

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Rivlin-apologizes-to-Brazil-over-diplomatic-dwarf-remarks-370849

In a rare turnabout, the president of the State of Israel stepped up to the plate to apologize for an insulting remark made about another country by an official of Israel’s Foreign Ministry.

 

It’s usually spokesman Yigal Palmor who has to soothe ruffled feathers, but this week President Reuven Rivlin applied himself to the task in relation to something Palmor had said about Brazil.

 

Following criticism by Brazil’s Foreign Ministry of what it considered to be Israel’s disproportionate military operation in Gaza, Palmor called Brazil a diplomatic dwarf.

 

Brazil subsequently recalled its ambassador to Israel Henrique da Silvera Sardinha to return home for consultations.

 

And there's been massive protests around the world against Israel.

Now, will this last if things calm down?  (they seem to have calmed now already)

I don't know.  People have a way of forgetting things when they aren't in the news and governments tend to overlook past issues when there's business to be made.

[Kilmer17]

I don't think those protests included anyone new to the anti-Israel crowd. The usual suspects I would guess.

And again, I don't see anything than some mild to medium words of condemnation. Which I would guess means next to nothing to Israel.

Now, if nations start enacting sanctions or trade embargos etc, then I think we could agree that Israel's actions are hurting them. But right now, I think they can shrug off the usual French protests

[JMS]

Talk is cheap. Is Israel in better or worse shape then they were prior to this?

Tactically they are in the same shape... I mean sure Israel has destroyed some tunnels, but Israel didn't even know those tunnels existed when these troubles erupted and shortly after this episode ends Hamas will dig new ones. Israel has gone from a handful of objectionable rocket strikes a week, to hundreds with no ability to stop them... Israel still has about 1.8 million Palestinians bottled up in Gaza.

Strategically Israel is weaker, every time the equivalence is made between Israel and Hamas, especially by Israeli's Israel looses.

What specifically have they lost diplomatically?

Well they've certainly further alienated their greatest ally in treating our Secretary of State so poorly. Not like they have many other friends on the security council either.

[Kilmer17]

Again though, that's a perception of how out govt may feel. But I'm judging our govt actions. And if anything, Kerry and Obama have backtracked from a harsher initial response.

[JMS]

Now, if nations start enacting sanctions or trade embargos etc, then I think we could agree that Israel's actions are hurting them. But right now, I think they can shrug off the usual French protests

64 PUBLIC FIGURES, 7 NOBEL PEACE LAUREATES, CALL FOR ARMS EMBARGO ON ISRAEL FOR WAR CRIMES

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/20/64-public-figures-7-Nobel-Peace-laureates-call-for-arms-embargo-on-Israel-for-war-crimes

US faith groups join call for arms embargo on Israel - Each casualty is a child of God

Faith groups across the United States have signed a joint statement calling for an embargo on the sale of arms to Israel.The text of their statement follows:

It is with heavy hearts that we compose this statement. At the time of this writing, the Israeli military’s ground, naval, and aerial bombardment of Gaza has killed at least 1,939 Palestinians. The majority of these victims were civilians, according to the United Nations. Palestinian rockets and anti-tank fire have killed two Israeli civilians, one Thai migrant worker, and 64 Israeli soldiers.

We deplore and condemn the use of violence by anyone, anytime, anywhere. For, each of these casualties is a child of God; each has a name; each has a family; each has a life story that has come to an abrupt

Israel should face arms embargo, former government minister says

Andrew Mitchell says answers are needed about Israeli operations in Gaza, after attacks on UN facilities and schools

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/06/israel-arms-embargo-andrew-mitchell-gaza

Israel/Gaza: UN must impose arms embargo and mandate an international investigation as civilian death toll rises

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-un-must-impose-arms-embargo-and-mandate-international-investigation-civilian-death-t

Call for UK Government arms embargo to Israel

http://scottishgovernment.presscentre.com/News/Call-for-UK-Government-arms-embargo-to-Israel-f76.aspx

Nobel peace laureates and celebrities call for military embargo on Israel

http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/nobel-celebrities-call-for-military-embargo-12316

 

[JMS]

Again though, that's a perception of how out govt may feel. But I'm judging our govt actions. And if anything, Kerry and Obama have backtracked from a harsher initial response.

 

 

 

US fuming over Israeli criticism of Kerry

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration pushed back strongly Monday at a torrent of Israeli criticism over Secretary of State John Kerry's latest bid to secure a cease-fire with Hamas, accusing some in Israel of launching a "misinformation campaign" against the top American diplomat.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/us-fuming-over-israeli-criticism-kerry-154747943--politics.html

‘Helluva Pinpoint Operation:’ Kerry Caught On Open Mic Sarcastically Slamming Israeli Gaza Op

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/20/helluva-pinpoint-operation-kerry-caught-on-open-mic-sarcastically-slamming-israeli-gaza-op/

Same as above but coverage from Reuters...

Kerry overheard sounding upset by civilian deaths in Gaza

 

In a conversation caught on an open microphone before an interview, Kerry made what seemed to be a sarcastic remark about Israel's insistence it was doing its utmost to avoid civilian casualties in operations against Hamas militants.

"It's a hell of a pinpoint operation. It's a hell of a pinpoint operation," he said during the call, which was broadcast on "Fox News Sunday."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/20/us-palestinians-israel-usa-recording-idUSKBN0FP0QO20140720

[visionary]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.610058

LIVE UPDATES: Egypt proposal includes gradual easing of Gaza blockade, Palestinian officials say

 

U.K. threatens to suspend arms export to Israel if Gaza fighting resumes; truce may be extended by 72 hours; security cabinet meeting canceled; British attorney Amal Alamuddin declines to serve on UN Gaza war crimes panel.

 

A three-day cease-fire in Gaza hit the midpoint on Tuesday as talks of a more permanent truce between Israel and the Palestinians appeared to be stalled.

 

A senior Israeli official made clear that large gaps between the sides remain to be bridged. The announcement came after it emerged on Monday that Israel has agreed during the negotiations in Cairo to ease conditions in the Gaza Strip.

 

A 72-hour temporary break in fighting went into effect at midnight on Sunday and was respected by both sides throughout Monday. With the cease-fire holding, the Israeli delegation to the talks retrurned to Cairo.

1:36 A.M. Egypt presented a proposed cease-fire to Israel and Hamas aimed at ending the month-long war, Palestinian officials said early Wednesday after negotiators huddled for a second day of Egyptian-mediated talks meant to resolve the crisis and bring relief to the embattled Gaza Strip.

 

Palestinian officials told The Associated Press early Wednesday morning that Egypt's proposal calls for easing parts of the Israeli blockade of Gaza, bringing some relief to the territory. But it leaves the key areas of disagreement, including the Islamic militant group Hamas' demand for a full lifting of the blockade and Israeli calls for Hamas to disarm, to later negotiations.

 

One of the Palestinian officials who spoke to AP said that according to the Egyptian proposal the blockade would be gradually eased.

 

He said it would stipulate that Israel would end airstrikes on militants, and a 500-meter (547-yard) buffer zone next to the Gaza and Israel frontier would be reduced over time, he said.

 

The Israeli and Palestinian negotiating teams retired after 10 hours of discussions and will resume the talks later Wednesday, about 12 hours before the current cease-fire is set to expire at midnight, the officials said.

 

It was not immediately clear if either side would accept the deal. (AP)

[Kilmer17]

All hat, no cattle

[Special K]

JMS, those aren't examples of countries enacting arms embargoes.  

 

As for Israel's criticism of Kerry, the Israeli government has pretty well distanced itself from the media's criticism (which happen to be the sources of criticism in the article you posted).  Not that I would blame them if they were secretly happy with the media blasting Kerry.

 

So, not really seeing this whole diplomatic relations crisis you and others are claiming Israel has brought upon itself with this latest conflict.  This is pretty much par for the course over there:  an armed conflict erupts between Israel and Hamas, the public gets upset at big, bad Israel, people protest for a bit, then a shiny object distracts the public and causes their attention to focus elsewhere (e.g. sensationalistic Ebola reporting), nothing happens for several months to a few years, then the cycle repeats.

[visionary]

Well the UK has threatened to do so.

Or at least to stop sending arms.

[Special K]

Well the UK has threatened to do so.

Or at least to stop sending arms.

Yeah, they've threatened to stop some of their arms shipments.  Again, I'll believe it when they actually enact an arms embargo that hurts Israel.

[Burgold]

Special K and Kilmer,

 

Israel has been at the short end of public opinion for several years now.  Sometimes deserved and sometimes not.  You can see it in the rise in antisemitism in Western Europe.  Look at what was happening in France recently.  They need to be careful.  It is one of the reasons why they have been as restrained as they are (and as horrific as the death toll has been it is an example of Israel fighting with one hand tied behind its back)

 

Hamas though, also has been for the first time in many years been finding their support falling amongst their Middle Eastern peers.  I think the rise of extremism in Egypt, Iraq, and elsewhere has been opening some eyes as to what Israel has to persevere.  Hopefully, that will put pressure on the Palestinians to stop their tactics.

 

Both sides look dirty in public and both sides ought to change their behavior.

 

Where I disagree with some on this board is the idea that the correct response to daily nonstop rocket attacks is to do absolutely nothing and that practically any action from Hamas is one Israel should not react to. I can't imagine us taking that tact nor can I imagine any nation just putting up with thousands of rocket attacks on their sovereign territory regardless of their degree of murderous effectiveness.

[JMS]

As for Israel's criticism of Kerry, the Israeli government has pretty well distanced itself from the media's criticism (which happen to be the sources of criticism in the article you posted).  Not that I would blame them if they were secretly happy with the media blasting Kerry.

So, not really seeing this whole diplomatic relations crisis you and others are claiming Israel has brought upon itself with this latest conflict.

A sitting Israeli government Minister called our Secretary of State a "Strategic Terrorist". How is the government going to distance itself from that? That was in the article I posted too.

That's not blasting Kerry... That's equating the sitting secretary of State for the United States with Hamas. That's what the administration was objecting too.

 

So, not really seeing this whole diplomatic relations crisis you and others are claiming Israel has brought upon itself with this latest conflict.  This is pretty much par for the course over there:  an armed conflict erupts between Israel and Hamas, the public gets upset at big, bad Israel, people protest for a bit, then a shiny object distracts the public and causes their attention to focus elsewhere (e.g. sensationalistic Ebola reporting), nothing happens for several months to a few years, then the cycle repeats.

Israel killed or is still killing 2000 mostly innocent women and children with American weapons.. I never said it's a diplomatic crisis. I said it weakens Israel. It works against their interests. I also said any equivalence drawn between Hamas and Israel to justify this atrocity works against Israel's interests too.

[JMS]

and as horrific as the death toll has been it is an example of Israel fighting with one hand tied behind its back)

That's bull ****. killing 2000 mostly women and children is an example of Israeli callousness when it comes to bombing women and children.

If it was the majority of 2000 Israeli casualties who were innocent women and children you certainly wouldn't be calling it an example of Hamas fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.. Regardless of how powerful Hamas's weapons were. Let's try to be a little consistent..

Where I disagree with some on this board is the idea that the correct response to daily nonstop rocket attacks is to do absolutely nothing and practically any action from Hamas is one Israel should not react to. I can't imagine us taking that tact nor can I imagine any nation just putting up with thousands of rocket attacks on their sovereign territory regardless of their degree of murderous effectiveness.

I don't think doing nothing is what I was ever advocating. I was however advocating a proportional response. If the Hamas rockets do nothing, then why in the world would Israel think they had the right to kill scores of Palestinians?

I was also advocating visiting Israeli's reprisals on Hamas, rather than the innocent civilians which have overwhelmingly been the victims of Israeli's attacks.

[Special K]

Special K and Kilmer,

 

Israel has been at the short end of public opinion for several years now.  Sometimes deserved and sometimes not.  You can see it in the rise in antisemitism in Western Europe.  Look at what was happening in France recently.  They need to be careful.  It is one of the reasons why they have been as restrained as they are (and as horrific as the death toll has been it is an example of Israel fighting with one hand tied behind its back)

 

Thanks for your insight, Burgold.  

 

I understand that Israel has been at the short end of public opinion for several years now and I've acknowledged that in my postings.  That's one of the big reasons I think Israeli leaderships doesn't really care about pissing the usual players off, they're going to be protested against and hated no matter what.  From what I've seen and read (and of course I'm not an expert), is that this conflict has weakened regional Hamas support more than it has harmed Israel's diplomatic status with other nations.

That's bull ****. killing 2000 mostly women and children is an example of Israeli callousness when it comes to bombing women and children.

If it was the majority of 2000 Israeli casualties who were innocent women and children you certainly wouldn't be calling it an example of Hamas fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.. Regardless of how powerful Hamas's weapons were. Let's try to be a little consistent..

Are you saying Israel couldn't bomb Palestine and Hamas into oblivion if they wanted to?  I believe that's what Burgold is saying here, and he's right.

[JMS]

Are you saying Israel couldn't bomb Palestine and Hamas into oblivion if they wanted to?  I believe that's what Burgold is saying here, and he's right.

I'm saying killing 2000 mostly innocent women and children is a despicable act.

And despicable acts don't bring Israel any closer to peace or security.

Are you saying if it were most of 2000 Israeli women and children which Hamas just killed; you'd be like...

• Hey that's war...
• Might makes right...
• Say la vie...
• Hamas should teach Israel a lesson and really get into some Genocide...
• Well Hamas was holding back cause they could have killed twice that many Israeli innocents.

I don't think so.

[Kilmer17]

Well the UK has threatened to do so.

Or at least to stop sending arms.

Like a British cop chasing a suspect. "Stop! Or I'll be forced to yell Stop again!l

Seriously. Israel is facing no real issues as a result of this latest skirmish. In fact, as you've pointed out, they've reached an odd place with some previously serious antagonists

[Larry]

Hamas though, also has been for the first time in many years been finding their support falling amongst their Middle Eastern peers.  I think the rise of extremism in Egypt, Iraq, and elsewhere has been opening some eyes as to what Israel has to persevere.  Hopefully, that will put pressure on the Palestinians to stop their tactics.

 

Both sides look dirty in public and both sides ought to change their behavior.

I take a more pragmatic view. I don't think the distancing from Hamas is because Hamas "looks dirty".

To pick Egypt as simply one example, I think it's a case of "Egypt is just fine with terrorist organizations threatening Israel. But they have a problem with terrorist organizations threatening Egypt."

[JMS]

they've reached an odd place with some previously serious antagonists 

 

explain that please.   you've think Israel has benefited from these events?

 

 

 

 

I think it's a case of "Egypt is just fine with terrorist organizations threatening Israel. But they have a problem with terrorist organizations threatening Egypt."

 

The current leaders in Egypt are Mubarak's boys.   The guys who have been upholding the Gaza blockade since 2006 and been at peace with Israel since 1976..  At least when they were in power.   If this Egyptian regime unilaterally breaks the embargo Israel has imposed on Gaza then that's a huge deal..

 

It's such a huge deal though I don't think they will.   It's more likely Egypt will propose such a solution to Israel for Israel's approval or disapproval..   I don't see the Egyptians either being soft on Muslim extremists or violating their peace with Israel.   It's not like the Muslim extremists have any friends in the current Egyptian regime.

[Burgold]

[quote name="JMS" post="9887434" timestamp="

I don't think doing nothing is what I was ever advocating. I was however advocating a proportional response. If the Hamas rockets do nothing, then why in the world would Israel think they had the right to kill scores.

So, your not advocating Israel do nothing you just believe they should do nothing.

Let's revisit the strafing analogy. Every day your neighbor drives by your house and empties their cartridge. You hear them coming and so you and your family hide in the basement. No one gets killed. This goes on every day for five years.

Is it truly your contention that the non stop attacks did "nothing" to you, your family, your house?

And you speak of callousness.

I take a more pragmatic view. I don't think the distancing from Hamas is because Hamas "looks dirty".

To pick Egypt as simply one example, I think it's a case of "Egypt is just fine with terrorist organizations threatening Israel. But they have a problem with terrorist organizations threatening Egypt."

Yup. Agreed. They and others are realizing who Hamas really are and self interest is pushing them apart.

[Kilmer17]

Hamas has lost support of govts that previously would have been grandstanding at the UN condemning Israel. Egypt is the obvious example.

That's not a huge benefit for them. But it's certainly not hurting them. Which is what has been claimed.

[JMS]

Hamas has lost support of govts that previously would have been grandstanding at the UN condemning Israel. Egypt is the obvious example.

That's not a huge benefit for them. But it's certainly not hurting them. Which is what has been claimed.

 

Hamas is a radical Suni organization who were allies with the Muslim brotherhood.   The guys who the current regime in Egypt is arresting and executing.   They aren't likely to shed any tears over Hamas casualties nor come to Hamas's aid in any significant way.

 

The only two countries who have ties and were trying to represent Hamas in the talks with Israel were Turkey, and Quatar.. neither of whom have backed away from Hamas in any appreciable fashion.

 

I don't think it's Hamas Israel has to worry about gaining traction or loosing traction..  It's not like they are a poster boy for good behavior either..  Not many countries will even sit across the table from them.    It's the plight of the Palestinians and how Israel appears which is Israel's liability here.