Yahoo: Israel vows no let-up, Hamas defiant, as Gaza toll tops 120

[Koala]

I'm not so sure about that.

I'm getting the impression that Hamas didn't exactly generate a lot of goodwill in Egypt. Rather irritated them, in fact.

Now, whether that means that Egypt will actually stop the flow of weapons to Hamas? Remains to be seen. (I'm assuming that Israel isn't letting any in. So, whatever they're getting, must be coming through Egypt.)

Still, I have no doubt that the Palestinian In the Street thinks they "won".

So what if they pissed off Egypt? That's like saying they pissed off Israel. It doesn't matter because Egypt and Hamas hav e been open enemies for a long time. Iys actually Egypt that's lost influence over Gaza, evidenced by when they tried to declare a truce without consulting Hamas and Hamas promptly told them to go screw themselves. The end result was a truce more favorable to Hamas and one which included forcing the Egyptians to open their border crossing too.

As for this being perceived as a victory by the Palestinian street -- I submit to you that this is the victory Hamas was in most desperate need of.

For years now, Hamas popularity has been dwindling, and with elections tentatively scheduled for January, Hamas was looking for any kind of victory or accomplishment to help it stop the bleeding. That's really why Hamas started this war, and they got what they wanted. If the Palestinian Street thinks Hamas won, then Hamas won.

I'm not so sure about that.

I'm getting the impression that Hamas didn't exactly generate a lot of goodwill in Egypt. Rather irritated them, in fact.

Now, whether that means that Egypt will actually stop the flow of weapons to Hamas? Remains to be seen. (I'm assuming that Israel isn't letting any in. So, whatever they're getting, must be coming through Egypt.)

Still, I have no doubt that the Palestinian In the Street thinks they "won".

So what if they pissed off Egypt? That's like saying they pissed off Israel. It doesn't matter because Egypt and Hamas hav e been open enemies for a long time. Iys actually Egypt that's lost influence over Gaza, evidenced by when they tried to declare a truce without consulting Hamas and Hamas promptly told them to go screw themselves. The end result was a truce more favorable to Hamas and one which included forcing the Egyptians to open their border crossing too.

As for this being perceived as a victory by the Palestinian street -- I submit to you that this is the victory Hamas was in most desperate need of.

For years now, Hamas popularity has been dwindling, and with elections tentatively scheduled for January, Hamas was looking for any kind of victory or accomplishment to help it stop the bleeding. That's really why Hamas started this war, and they got what they wanted. If the Palestinian Street thinks Hamas won, then Hamas won.

[JMS]

I'm not so sure about that. 

 

I'm getting the impression that Hamas didn't exactly generate a lot of goodwill in Egypt.  Rather irritated them, in fact. 

 

Now, whether that means that Egypt will actually stop the flow of weapons to Hamas?  Remains to be seen.  (I'm assuming that Israel isn't letting any in.  So, whatever they're getting, must be coming through Egypt.) 

 

You can't spend what you don't have.  Hamas was big allies with the Moslem Brotherhood who the current regime replaced and is militarily repressing.   The current regime in Egypt never had any good will for Hamas.

 

The current Regime in Egypt are the allies of former president Mubaric.   They stopped the seepage when they took power...  

 

 

Still, I have no doubt that the Palestinian In the Street thinks they "won". 

 

Perhaps but it's hard to call it a victory when more than 2000 Palestinians are dead vs fewer than 70 Israelis.

 

I think in the 2006 war Hezbollah could claim victory because they killed a lot of Israeli's and actually got Israel to classify the number of tanks Hezbollah had knocked out...  Reportedly Israel lost more tanks in that few week war than the US lost in both Gulf Wars.

 

Did Netanyahu blink here.. absolutely... He was running out of things to blow up and had satisfied his punitive itch.   For the last few weeks he had been looking for a face saving way to back down.   But that's hardly a cause for Palestinian celebration because that's the same formula Israel has followed in every war since 48..    Israel's IDF isn't built for war's of attrition.    They move in,  they accomplish their goals, and then generally they get the US to negotiate a peace deal favorable to them.    They lack the ability to conduct prolonged military adventures, and In Gaza they lack any achievable advantageous goal.

 

Israel was always going to bomb he snott out of the Palestinians, and then sign up for a peace deal.   That Hamas held out and took Israel's body shots beyond Israel's comfort level in order to get Israeli concessions is better than most of Israeli antagonists have played their hands,  but it's still an odd way to claim a military victory.

[Koala]

Odd? To you, JMS. But it's perfectly normal behavior for arabs. If you let them live, they will declare victory no matter how badly they've been beaten up. And if they manage to extract a concession too, OH Dear Lord that's when start dancing in the streets and passing out candy. Welcome to the Middle East :-)

[JMS]

Odd? To you, JMS. But it's perfectly normal behavior for arabs. If you let them live, they will declare victory no matter how badly they've been beaten up. And if they manage to extract a concession too, OH Dear Lord that's when start dancing in the streets and passing out candy. Welcome to the Middle East :-)

 

I hear you,  but that's really Israel's fault...  It's not that often the IDF let's anybody live.   So this is a victory of sorts.  This is a dramatic victory compared with some of the defeats suffered by Arab forces.  I mean they got an extra two miles of fishing territory,  does anybody think Israel is sweating that?..  I also agree with you any concession is a cause for celebration by the Palestinians who haven't had much cause for celebrations...

 

Israel was never going to kill 1.8 million people who live in Gaza.  And Israel was never going to re-occupy Gaza which they unilaterally left under Arial Sharon as too costly  years ago....   So an Israeli withdraw with Hamas left in power was always going to be end result of this invasion.

 

In 2006 Israeli defeat to Hezbollah you really have to redefine the word victory and defeat to apply those terms to Israel's recent conflicts.   In 2006 Israel left an enemy force in the field in place for the first time in her history.   A defeat right...  But then you look at it..   Hamas had some 800 fighters dug in and well armed in southern Lebonon...  Israel had 70,000 troops called up and could have fielded another 100,000.    Israel decided in 2006 it was better to just ignore Hezbollah than to go in and dig them out of their holes..   Is that really a defeat?   Israel hit Hezbollah hard but had the troops available to hit them 10x 50x harder.   In the end Israel decided it wasn't worth it before committing even the bulk of their called up troops...  It was the smart move by Israel, even if it did give Hezbollah the kind of victory called surviving when going up against the IDF.

 

The 2014 Hamas,  "victory" is even more tenuous.   Israel basically slapped them around until their hands hurt.   They could have done anything they wanted to Hamas.    But Israel had no strategic Interests in invading other than making a point to what happens to folks who shoot rockets at them.   It is fairly impressive and ominous that Hamas was able to withstand the Israeli assault until weeks passed when Israel wanted to stop.    Still,  If Israel actually had a strategic interest in that fight,  she wouldn't have lost interest..   So the fact Israel gave terms says more about their original motives for invading, the fact Israel achieved them, and less about some sort of transformation of the IDF or Israeli political leadership as newly born softies.

[Kilmer17]

Over under 21 days before a rocket gets launched at Israel?

[Koala]

Under. Over under 21 days before Israel kills Hamas leader?

[Koala]

Under. Over under 21 days before Israel kills Hamas leader?

Under. Over under 21 days before Israel kills Hamas leader?

[JMS]

Under. Over under 21 days before Israel kills Hamas leader?

 

Doesn't matter,   The rockets are still there and they will start up again.

 

Israel was stupid here.   They paid a huge price in lives, money, and good will and they got nothing out of it.....   Yeah the rockets will eventually return at the same levels Israel experienced before the incussion.  Large enough to be annoying,  small enough to be tollerable.  After all that we are back where we started...  

 

Israel's goal was to hit Hamas so hard,  to make them pay such a huge price in civilian deaths,  that they would coware from Israel and become more docile.    That plan doesn't seemed to have worked, and doesn't seem to have worked for decades,   They need a new plan.

[mcsluggo]

uhm... you got that wrong.  

 

Netinyahoo's plan was to stoke the jingoistic impulses of his electorate, and give himself a boost in approval ratings, even among the non-conservative israelis that normally oppose him.   It worked like a charm, just like it has worked every time for the last several decades.

 

(and you can say the exact same thing for the Hamas leadership that continually invite these spates that devastate their own people, but still manage to improve the popularity of the loser leadership) 

 

its the way nationalism works

[JMS]

uhm... you got that wrong.  

 

Netinyahoo's plan was to stoke the jingoistic impulses of his electorate, and give himself a boost in approval ratings, even among the non-conservative israelis that normally oppose him.   It worked like a charm, just like it has worked every time for the last several decades.

Yeah that worked great while he was bombing Hamas... Problem with that kind of plan for popularity is you always have to stop bombing sometimes.. Now that Bibi Netanyahu has made concessions and agreed to this long term cease fire he is no longer one of the popular kids. His own cabinent is in revolt and his tenous coalition which made him PM is threatenned.

 

Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet in revolt over Gaza ceasefire

2:45PM BST 27 Aug 2014

Israel's fragile coalition government is threatened by the Gaza ceasefire, which the prime minister agreed without putting it to a vote

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11059048/Benjamin-Netanyahus-cabinet-in-revolt-over-Gaza-ceasefire.html

 

Also Israel in the short term at least, has trashed their relationship with the west..

 

(and you can say the exact same thing for the Hamas leadership that continually invite these spates that devastate their own people, but still manage to improve the popularity of the loser leadership) 

 

its the way nationalism works

Hamas is looking like the more reasonable actor ... That's the result Israel manufactured when they decided to fly off the handle with such a disproportional response. Still popularity campagnes like this where 2000 of their citizens are killed don't seem to be a sustainable path to popularity for Hamas either....

[visionary]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.613239

IDF recommends easing Gaza restrictions

 

The IDF will recommend to politicians that they show generosity in indirect negotiations with Hamas when discussing the conditions for a permanent cease-fire, in order to forestall renewed hostilities at the end of September. A senior military source has told Haaretz that it is in Israel’s interest to avoid intense social and economic pressure on Gaza. “If we can assist by expanding fishing grounds and easing restrictions on border crossings of people and goods into and from Israel, this will help maintain the quiet,” the source said.

 

The source said that these steps should be accompanied by effective supervisory mechanisms that will prevent renewed smuggling of military materiel into the Gaza Strip. At present, the temporary cease-fire agreement has no such provisions and Israel independently supervises goods that are moved into Gaza, without international participation.

 

The defense establishment will demand that specific measures are taken to supervise construction projects financed and managed by international agencies, in order to prevent cement and concrete from being diverted to Hamas for rebuilding its tunnels and bunkers.

 

Egypt does not intend to fully open its border crossing into Gaza at Rafah. Before Operation Protective Edge it permitted the crossing of 100 to 200 people a day, based on humanitarian considerations, but on some days the crossing was closed. Israel estimates that the numbers will be doubled, but not beyond that. Egypt is unwilling to allow the transfer of goods, as the Palestinians would like to see.

 

In view of Egypt’s attitude, reconstruction and improvement in the lives of Gaza’s residents depends largely on Israel’s attitude. The defense establishment marked the critical elements essential for Gaza’s economy: the transfer of salaries to 43,000 employees associated with the Hamas government (Israel imposed procedural hardships on this transfer earlier this year), guaranteed fishing rights, easing of restrictions on the transfer of goods through the Kerem Shalom crossing and people through the Erez crossing, and implementation of massive reconstruction projects to repair the extensive damage caused by the hostilities.

[visionary]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-proposes-taking-more-west-bank-land-for-jewish-settlers/2014/08/31/97260a8a-1bc7-4406-ba57-c6493dfdf865_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203

Israel proposes taking more West Bank land for Jewish settlers

 

The Israeli government announced Sunday that it would appropriate almost 1,000 acres of land in the West Bank that could be used to build homes for Jewish settlers.

 

The Israeli group Peace Now, which opposes expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank, called it the largest land appropriation in 30 years.

 

The Civil Administration, the Israeli military authority responsible for implementing government policy in the West Bank, said the decision was based on the “instructions of the political leadership” after Operation Brother’s Keeper, the security sweep in June that followed the killing of three Israeli teens abducted in the area.

 

In recent weeks, leaders of the Islamist militant movement Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip and is branded a terrorist organization by Israel and the United States, have indicated that their operatives were behind the kidnapping.

 

On Sunday, Israel formally began the process of converting the 1,000 acres into “state land.” The area lies west of Bethlehem in a section of the West Bank that Israelis call Gush Etzion, a cluster of nine Israeli settlements.

Oh good. 

That'll show those terrorists in the West Bank.

No more rockets or tunnels from them.

 

 

 

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=724587

Minister: Unity government budget 'below zero'

 

Palestinian Authority minister Shawqi al-Ayasa said the West Bank-Gaza unity government is working on a "deteriorating" budget after not receiving money from donors as scheduled.

 

"The government's budget is below zero, and it's starting to borrow from banks to move forward, because only less than third of donor funds that were scheduled to be received this year arrived," Al-Ayasa told Ma'an in a television interview.

 

"The US has not provided a single penny since Jan. 1, and Europe and Arab states only provided a third of what they were scheduled to give," he said. 

 

The agricultural sector suffered an estimated loss of $450 million as a result of the Israeli assault on Gaza. He said the reconstruction of Gaza would take two years if construction material entered the Strip at a reasonable rate.

 

[JMS]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-proposes-taking-more-west-bank-land-for-jewish-settlers/2014/08/31/97260a8a-1bc7-4406-ba57-c6493dfdf865_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203

Oh good. 

That'll show those terrorists in the West Bank.

No more rockets or tunnels from them.

 

I know you're joking and know better,  but I have to say it because I'm sure some won't.

 

Hamas ( aka the terrorist Palestinians control Gaza )...    Fatah and the Palestinian Authority who have recognized ISrael's right to exist and have committed themselves to peace are the ones who control the West Bank where Israel is proposing their largest land grab in 30 years....   Even though the land grabs in the West Bank go down weakly and have since 67 when Israel took the West Bank by force of arms.    

 

No country on earth including the United States recognizes Israels right to the West Bank,   And Israel swapping that land in exchange for peace is the foundation of the Peace efforts underway for some decades now...   Land for peace being the formula which previous Israeli governments,  the majority of the Israeli and Palestinian people all have agreed on for decades too.

 

Ultimately though this seems to be Netanyahu trying to ease the open revolt he's currently facing in his cabinent.   When Netanyahu came to power he did not have the majority of seats in the Knesset,  he didn't even win the election.   Netanyahu's Likud party came in second to the Kadima Party which favors peace talks with the PA and favors land for peace..   The problem was Avigdor Lieberman came in a close third, and he pledged his votes to Likud  allowing them to form a government not Kadima.    Since that time Lieberman's party has left Netanyahu's government, and BeBe's hold on power has become tenuous.    Now after the Gaza Cease fire deal BeBe negotiated without consulting his cabinet Netanyahu's governing coalition is on the ropes..   Annexing 1000 acres in the West Bank is just the kind of medicine BeBe might use to try to draw them back together.

[visionary]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/poll-says-palestinian-support-hamas-rises

AFTER GAZA WAR, POLL FINDS SUPPORT FOR HAMAS RISES

 

The popularity of the Hamas militant group among Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip has spiked significantly following the 50-day war with Israel, according to an opinion poll released Tuesday.

 

The poll, conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research and headed by leading Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki, indicates that 61 percent of Palestinians would choose the Islamic militant group's leader, Ismail Haniyeh, for president if Palestinian presidential elections were held today.

 

Only 32 percent would vote for current President Mahmoud Abbas, Hamas' rival, the survey suggested.

 

The support for Haniyeh marks a stark increase from a poll in June, conducted by the same pollster, which found only 41 percent of Palestinians backed the Hamas figure. At the time, Abbas had 53 percent support.

 

The poll also suggests a majority of Palestinians — 72 percent — support adopting Hamas' armed approach in the West Bank.

 

The research center said it is the first time in eight years that a majority of Palestinians has voiced such support for the Hamas leader. But, it said, Hamas' popularity might fall in coming months, as it did following previous Israel-Hamas conflicts.

[Kilmer17]

But we're supposed to believe that the majority of Palestinians don't support violence against Israel?

[Larry]

But we're supposed to believe that the majority of Palestinians don't support violence against Israel?

Pointing out that Hamas' popularity didn't go up after the rockets. It went up after Israel invaded. (And, I assume "Hamas drove them back").

But nice try at turning this into something it isn't.

[Kilmer17]

The poll also suggests a majority of Palestinians — 72 percent — support adopting Hamas' armed approach in the West Bank.

I'm not turning it Larry. This is what it says

[visionary]

Makes sense that the faction that fights Israel and gets concessions is more popular than the faction that acts nice towards Israel and lets them steal land without consequences.

[Larry]

The poll also suggests a majority of Palestinians — 72 percent — support adopting Hamas' armed approach in the West Bank.

You mean, they support fighting back in the other place Israel is invading and conquering their territory, too?

Funny, the people who fire rockets at Israel get left alone. The folks who negotiate with them get land taken away from them.

(And yes, I'm well aware that the difference between the way Israel treats one or the other is not because Hamas fights in one place, and not in the other. It's because Israel wants one place, and doesn't want the other. Just saying that I can see how the notion that fighting back will halt the invasion might be an easy notion to sell.)

[visionary]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.614455

Foreign Ministry proposes international force in Gaza, favors EU troops

 

The Foreign Ministry submitted a classified document to the security cabinet two weeks ago with a proposal for stationing an international force in the Gaza Strip to monitor rehabilitation and prevent the rearming of Hamas and other terror groups. The Foreign Ministry believes that such a force could serve Israel’s interest if it carries out effective security work in Gaza.

 

The two-page document, entitled “Principles and Parameters for Deployment of an International Force in Gaza,” was given to the ministers of the security cabinet on August 21, by Foreign Minister director-general Nissim Ben-Sheetrit. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s senior advisers read the document and discussed it with Foreign Ministry officials. The ministers also read the document, but have not met to discuss it.

 

A senior Foreign Ministry official said the document was formulated in the context of ideas received by Germany, Britain, France and other European countries during the war in Gaza, to establish an international monitoring force in Gaza that would be based on an upgrading of the European monitoring force stationed at the Rafah crossing between 2005 and 2007.

Maybe the idea has legs after all.

[JMS]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.614455

Maybe the idea has legs after all.

I think we've got troops in GAZA (40 guys) between Egypt and Israel and have for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_and_Observers

I don't think any first world country wants to get between Hezbollah or Hamas and Israel... and I don't think Israel would permit foreign troops in the West bank because they are actively resettling that area.

Does anybody remember in the 1980's when Ronnie put US troops in the West Bank(think it was the west bank)... Israel tried to run a checkpoint manned by a US master sargent and a handful of guys with some tanks they were trying to reposition. Then defense minister Aryal Sharon was on a hill observing and gave an order to blow through the US check point. The master sargent walks out in the middle of the road and stands there as the Israeli tank comes within inches of him before stopping. He then takes out his pistol and arrests the Israeli's for trying to cross his position without permission. Anybody else remember that? I have to look that up..

I also don't think the Europeans would want to put troops into Gaza.. It's just too unstable. Now the UN troops from the third world they'll put them there, but those guys can hardly defend themselves much less stop problems... so Isreal usually declines their use, because they become more of a bother as ISrael invariable bombs them when they are used as sheilds by whatever faction Israel wants to thump.

[visionary]

I think we've got troops in GAZA (40 guys) between Egypt and Israel and have for decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_and_Observers

I don't think any first world country wants to get between Hezbollah or Hamas and Israel... and I don't think Israel would permit foreign troops in the West bank because they are actively resettling that area.

Does anybody remember in the 1980's when Ronnie put US troops in the West Bank(think it was the west bank)... Israel tried to run a checkpoint manned by a US master sargent and a handful of guys with some tanks they were trying to reposition. Then defense minister Aryal Sharon was on a hill observing and gave an order to blow through the US check point. The master sargent walks out in the middle of the road and stands there as the Israeli tank comes within inches of him before stopping. He then takes out his pistol and arrests the Israeli's for trying to cross his position without permission. Anybody else remember that? I have to look that up..

I also don't think the Europeans would want to put troops into Gaza.. It's just too unstable. Now the UN troops from the third world they'll put them there, but those guys can hardly defend themselves much less stop problems... so Isreal usually declines their use, because they become more of a bother as ISrael invariable bombs them when they are used as sheilds by whatever faction Israel wants to thump.

Well the EU had already proposed this: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/15/eu-gaza-border.html?utm_content=general&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

[JMS]

Well the EU had already proposed this: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/15/eu-gaza-border.html?utm_content=general&utm_campaign=ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow

 

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that offer.   Do you think that's a serious offer?   It's predicated on Hamas unilaterally disarming along with all the other terrorists groups in Gaza.

 

When Israel proposed Hamas unilaterally disarming,  Hamas responded sure as soon as the IDF does.

Hamas doesn't even control all those terrorist groups which would be required to disarm unilaterally to meet the EU's requirements for stationing it's troops in Gaza...

 

 

They said “terrorist” groups in Gaza must disarm and an overall peace deal remains the main objective.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/15/eu-gaza-border.html

 

 

Likewise there is no overall peace deal imminent.  

[visionary]

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/10/ted-cruz-booed-off-stage-at-middle-east-christian-conference-video/

Ted Cruz Booed Off Stage At Middle East Christian Conference [VIDEO]

 

Sen. Ted Cruz was booed offstage at a conference for Middle Eastern Christians Wednesday night after saying that “Christians have no greater ally than Israel.”

 

Cruz, the keynote speaker at the sold-out D.C. dinner gala for the recently-founded non-profit In Defense of Christians, began by saying that “tonight, we are all united in defense of Christians. Tonight, we are all united in defense of Jews. Tonight, we are all united in defense of people of good faith, who are standing together against those who would persecute and murder those who dare disagree with their religious teachings.”

 

Cruz was not reading from a teleprompter, nor did he appear to be reading from notes.

“If you will not stand with Israel and the Jews,” he said. “Then I will not stand with you. Good night, and God bless.” And with that, he walked off the stage.

 

Many Christians in the Middle East take issue with Israeli military policy, which has made life for Palestinian Christians in their homeland very difficult, and driven many from their homes. “Israel’s policies have led to demographic pressure that’s made the West Bank and Gaza far more Muslim than in 1948,” explained one Middle East analyst.

[JMS]

Ted Cruz Booed Off Stage At Middle East Christian Conference [VIDEO]

 

http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/10/ted-cruz-booed-off-stage-at-middle-east-christian-conference-video/

 

I posted that article in the Ted Cruz wants to take away people's citizenship thread....

 

Ted Cruz was boo'd off the stage because he was too pro-Israel.   He was equating Christian persecution with Jewish persecution.

then making the seemingly safe declaration America should stand with Israel...   and he get's boo'd off the stage?

 

It is curious.   If you watch the video you come to a few conclusions... 

 

(1) Ted was hardly boo'd off stage..   looks like it was just a handful of folks and they appeared to have ME accents.

 

(2) The Quote   "If you won't stand with Israel, then I won't stand with you"...  is missleading because Ted precedes that quote with...   "It seems that some here are so consumed with hatred.. not all, but some..."   which is what really drew the boo's and strongest reaction of the video and even that wasn't all that huge.