Larry Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Has Israel ever said they'd be willing to go back to 67 borders? I'd be amazed. I sure don't see it happening. My instinct says end apartheid. Palestinians have equal rights as citizens of Israel. Something like the South African model. Truth and reconciliation, that sort of thing. Admittedly I don't know much about the situation, so maybe I'm missing something. I get the feeling people don't think that will work. Why wouldn't it? Because there are more Palestinians in "Israel" than there are Jews. The "one state" solution ends with "New Israel" being a Muslim country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 a bit more,but the fever Nasser spread has less support in that direction....especially with Hamas soiling their bedding there. going nuclear also changes the game, especially triad Okay, that's true. So you tell me, I want Israel to return to the '67 border plus give up a strip of land on its western border that is at least equivalent in size to the Gaza strip so that the West Bank shares a northern border with Lebanon. The only carrot I can really think is that we'll put US troops on the ground in Israel sort of like in S. Korea. I wouldn't put them under Israeli control, but I'd be willing to talk about having US troops on the border. What do I need as a stick: Cut funding to Israel. Cut funding to Egypt. Start funding the Palestinians. Sanctions against Israel. Aggressively conducting counter intelligence efforts against Israel (catching and prosecuting Israeli spies). What makes them move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Because there are more Palestinians in "Israel" than there are Jews. The "one state" solution ends with "New Israel" being a Muslim country. So basically the idea is democracy won't work out the way the people with power want? It doesn't really seem fair.I'm not really sure how to solve this problem, but it sure would be nice to find a way that protects everybody's basic human rights. What's going on now isn't just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 What makes them move? not a very realistic carrot,,the sticks seem as likely to further divide a viable partner for peace is the best bet, so far Abbas seems too weak.....I won't even get into Obama/Kerry shortcomings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 So basically the idea is democracy won't work out the way the people with power want? It doesn't really seem fair. I'm not really sure how to solve this problem, but it sure would be nice to find a way that protects everybody's basic human rights. What's going on now isn't just. 1) Yes. That's exactly it. 2) And yes, I would love it if every country in the Middle East had a system like ours which at least attempts to treat all religions equally. But the evidence suggests that what the people in the Middle East want, is a place where one religion rules everybody else, as long as it's my religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'd be amazed. I sure don't see it happening. ( if Israel had ever agreed to a return of the 67 boarders as a basis of peace talks ).. Yes at the Taba summit, in January 2001 prime minister Barak and the Palestinians under Arafat both agreed to make a return to the 67 boarders the basis of future peace talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Okay, that's true. So you tell me, I want Israel to return to the '67 border plus give up a strip of land on its western border that is at least equivalent in size to the Gaza strip so that the West Bank shares a northern border with Lebanon. The only carrot I can really think is that we'll put US troops on the ground in Israel sort of like in S. Korea. I wouldn't put them under Israeli control, but I'd be willing to talk about having US troops on the border. What do I need as a stick: Cut funding to Israel. Cut funding to Egypt. Start funding the Palestinians. Sanctions against Israel. Aggressively conducting counter intelligence efforts against Israel (catching and prosecuting Israeli spies). What makes them move? There is no stick. No short cuts. Israel has to decide that it want's peace and work out it's own political side itself.. Just like the Palestinians do. We can't be dictating a solution that's not how diplomacy works. Luckily for us most of this work is already done... the majority of Israeli's and Palestinians both favor peace based upon land swaps. That becomes teh base to build on; trying to empower that majority. Our aid and relationships with Israel allows us to stick our nose into these troubles and hold our ground a little when Hawks try to push us out. That's it. period. We pull our aid, we loose influence. Our choice here is how we use our influence. Do we use it to ruber stamp Israeli policies, hoping it buys us more influence with Israel... or do we use it to firmly and consistantly push an agenda of de-escalating tensions, and continued pursuet of a peace settlement. Hopefully as a trusted fair impartial intermidiary for both sides. Our challenge in pursuit of this role is our positions seem to change radically every 4-8 years when our Presidency changes hands. That and our own public is incredible ignorant on most world events and all things having to do with ISrael which allows them to be manipulated. Manipulated by both sides really, which is just unhelpful. (*) There will be no US troops setting up camp between Hamas/Hezbollah/PA and Israel.. And absolutely no US troops under Israeli command.. Hell man it's controversial to put US troops under British Command in peace zones.. Besides Israel wouldn't accept such a role. Israel has a long standing policy of not allowing any other country to fight it's battles. That includes us. It goes back to the Holocost and ensuring Israel always has the means to defend itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I'm not really sure how to solve this problem, but it sure would be nice to find a way that protects everybody's basic human rights. What's going on now isn't just. Again I'm not sure it's really up to us ultimately.. We can't impose peace.. What we can do is use our influence to creat an environment where peace is possible, even likely. We have the formula from the effort which came so close in the 1990's before we lost focus. Promote security for all sides, promote cooperation among the security forces of both sides, oppose all violent actions as ultimately unhelpful. Especially oppose non proportional responses when violence does break out. We do this by threats, diplomacy and use of global institutions to put preasure on the actors. Use our weapons outside of defense and you risk unilaterally future military assistance. We do not threaten to pull aid, We do not threaten to lose focus on security issues which are legitamate on both sides... Part of this challenge is to create an environment where the parties are not focusing on the past, but focusing on the future; and that can only happen when security concerns are consistantly addressed. Basically after an extended period of peace such as we experienced in the 1990's.. People moderate. We foster the growth of these moderates on both sides of these troubles. Then we work to empower those moderates to come to an accomidation which niether is happhy with but both can live with. It's at least a decade long process and the problem is our focus envolope is traditionally 4-8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 JMS, those aren't examples of countries enacting arms embargoes. UK government to block arms exports to Israel if military action resumes Announcement comes after lengthy dispute between leading Tories and Liberal Democrats over restriction of arms sales. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/12/british-arms-exports-israel-gaza-block-suspension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak Police confirm rocket lands in Israel two hours before end of temporary ceasefire in Gaza 3:20 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak And this is one reason why the land swap (which isn't a land swap at all, but rather Israel giving up land for a vague promise of peace) is so tough. After all, Hamas has proven time after time after time that they will not hold to any cease fire agreement. If they can't hold to a little agreement raise your hand if you think they will suddenly become Ghandi if they get land. Now, raise you hand if you think within three weeks of them getting land for peace that the terror attacks not only resume, but increase in ferocity. Now, land for peace worked with Egypt, but do you think it will work with Hamas when they even refuse to revise their constitution to allow Israel a right to exist in their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 I think the rocket was fired because the talks in Egypt were failing and the ceasefire was almost over. Still aggravating to see it. On the other hand no one died from it and six people died from previously fired Israeli ordinance, including some reporters. Doesn't make the rocket firing right, but it does put it in perspective. Err...hmmm: https://twitter.com/AFP BREAKING Israel, Palestinians agree to extend Gaza truce, says Egypt official 4:17 PM Maybe the rocket was just a random incident by some idiot. https://twitter.com/nickschifrin hamas denies it fired the rocket from Gaza into Israel 4:00 PM - https://twitter.com/MichaelShuval IDF spokes avoids blaming Hamas for ceasefire violation: "No need to jump to conclusions. I don't know who launched 10pm rocket at Israel". 4:23 PM https://twitter.com/RaynerSkyNews Palestinian delegation head, Azzam Al Ahmad, says new ceasefire extended until MONDAY - that's 5 day/120 hour extension - starting in 15mins 4:46 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 And this is one reason why the land swap (which isn't a land swap at all, but rather Israel giving up land for a vague promise of peace) is so tough. After all, Hamas has proven time after time after time that they will not hold to any cease fire agreement. If they can't hold to a little agreement raise your hand if you think they will suddenly become Ghandi if they get land. Now, raise you hand if you think within three weeks of them getting land for peace that the terror attacks not only resume, but increase in ferocity. Now, land for peace worked with Egypt, but do you think it will work with Hamas when they even refuse to revise their constitution to allow Israel a right to exist in their eyes. Are you serious? Hamas upheld their end of the ceasefire before cast lead. Israel didn't. Hamas upheld their end of the ceasefire prior to this period of violence. Israel broke it. They have already offered a 10 year peace for very reasonable points, Israel didn't even respond to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 What are you talking about? Last two ceasefires were broken by rocket fire including the one today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yeah, I get the impression that it's really rare to go a day without Hamas firing a rocket at Israel. (They'd really be winning the PR war, if they could). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well now I'm just confused.... CNN: Israeli military reports airstrikes on Gaza, throwing into doubt Palestinian claims that a truce extension is agreed. https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom The Israeli airstrikes in Gaza over the past hour were "over open ground," according to Palestinian officials. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/israel-carries-air-strikes-gaza-officials-210514697.html#OXy0ksT 6:20 PM OK, I guess this makes sense: https://twitter.com/BarakRavid BREAKING: Israeli official: After Hamas violated the ceasefire PM Netanyahu & MoD Yaalon ordered the IDF to retaliate 5:18 PM Israeli official: Israel agreed to extend ceasefire by 5 days but then it was violated by the Palestinians & IDF was ordered to retaliate 5:56 PM Israeli official: Israel is testing now Hamas's seriousness regarding the ceasefire in Gaza 6:08 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 This is just laughable I think it would be funnier if it weren't a commonly held belief. It's really just amazing the logic.. Here is another line of reasoning which boggles my medulla oblongata... a.) Israeli's are suffering under all these rockets they must absolutely respond... b.) It is not reasonable to ask Israel to conduct proportional responses to these rocket attacks, because that would be allowing the Palestinians to be getting away with no cost... and folks listen to that and think... yeah.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 1) Yes. That's exactly it. 2) And yes, I would love it if every country in the Middle East had a system like ours which at least attempts to treat all religions equally. But the evidence suggests that what the people in the Middle East want, is a place where one religion rules everybody else, as long as it's my religion. Yeah I think my American notions (like separation of church and state, freedom of religion, and human rights) are preventing me from appreciating the politics there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yeah I think my American notions (like separation of church and state, freedom of religion, and human rights) are preventing me from appreciating the politics there. Yeah I think you have a broad handle on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sway-over-israel-on-gaza-at-a-low-1407979365 How Israel Outflanks the White House on Gaza White House Now Scrutinizing Israeli Requests for Ammunition White House and State Department officials who were leading U.S. efforts to rein in Israel's military campaign in the Gaza Strip were caught off guard last month when they learned that the Israeli military had been quietly securing supplies of ammunition from the Pentagon without their approval. Since then the Obama administration has tightened its control on arms transfers to Israel. But Israeli and U.S. officials say that the adroit bureaucratic maneuvering made it plain how little influence the White House... https://twitter.com/tomgara Many in Obama admin now think "Netanyahu & his nat security team are both reckless & untrustworthy" on.wsj.com/1rtduQK (via @gabbystern) 12:15 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 What are you talking about? Last two ceasefires were broken by rocket fire including the one today. I was talking about the longer term agreed upon ceasefires, not the ceasefires Israel declares unilaterally without consulting Hamas, and are you sure those rockets are coming from Hamas and not a splinter group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I was talking about the longer term agreed upon ceasefires, not the ceasefires Israel declares unilaterally without consulting Hamas, and are you sure those rockets are coming from Hamas and not a splinter group? That's a fair question. However, I'm not sure if ultimately it's an important distinction. What matters is the action. When the Palestinians were murdered not by the IDF but by Israeli citizens in reprizal for the death of the three teenagers that fault still falls on Israel. If rockets are being launched in Hamas controlled territory during a ceasefire then the government in charge bares some degree of fault especially if their ultimate goal is land for peace. After all, what if Israel gives Hamas everything they want and there is absolutely no cessation of violence, but Hamas says that there's nothing they can/will do. It's not their members acting. They have a responsibility to police and control these actions at least after the fact. The Israelis who murdered the Palestinians are in jail. When was the last time Hamas arrested or even prosecuted someone for terrorist actions against Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 That's a fair question. However, I'm not sure if ultimately it's an important distinction. What matters is the action. When the Palestinians were murdered not by the IDF but by Israeli citizens in reprizal for the death of the three teenagers that fault still falls on Israel. If rockets are being launched in Hamas controlled territory during a ceasefire then the government in charge bares some degree of fault especially if their ultimate goal is land for peace. After all, what if Israel gives Hamas everything they want and there is absolutely no cessation of violence, but Hamas says that there's nothing they can/will do. It's not their members acting. They have a responsibility to police and control these actions at least after the fact. The Israelis who murdered the Palestinians are in jail. When was the last time Hamas arrested or even prosecuted someone for terrorist actions against Israel? That happened quite a bit during the cease fire prior to Cast Lead, even Israel acknowledged it.It took some days, but they were largely successful. Hamas imposed its will and even imprisoned some of those who were firing rockets. Israeli and United Nations figures show that while more than 300 rockets were fired into Israel in May, 10 to 20 were fired in July, depending on who was counting and whether mortar rounds were included. In August, 10 to 30 were fired, and in September, 5 to 10.[4] But the bigger point is that while the guys who murdered the teen may be in jail the colonization of the West Bank continues, as does the blockade of Gaza, and the death toll of civilians continues to rise for Palestinians that's the real issue here, it's great that in this instance Israel prosecuted its own criticizes but that doesn't change the nature of the state and that ignores the thousands of cases where violence against Palestinians is ignored or even state sanctioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 There is no stick. No short cuts. Israel has to decide that it want's peace and work out it's own political side itself.. Just like the Palestinians do. We can't be dictating a solution that's not how diplomacy works. Luckily for us most of this work is already done... the majority of Israeli's and Palestinians both favor peace based upon land swaps. That becomes teh base to build on; trying to empower that majority. Our aid and relationships with Israel allows us to stick our nose into these troubles and hold our ground a little when Hawks try to push us out. That's it. period. We pull our aid, we loose influence. Our choice here is how we use our influence. Do we use it to ruber stamp Israeli policies, hoping it buys us more influence with Israel... or do we use it to firmly and consistantly push an agenda of de-escalating tensions, and continued pursuet of a peace settlement. Hopefully as a trusted fair impartial intermidiary for both sides. Our challenge in pursuit of this role is our positions seem to change radically every 4-8 years when our Presidency changes hands. That and our own public is incredible ignorant on most world events and all things having to do with ISrael which allows them to be manipulated. Manipulated by both sides really, which is just unhelpful. (*) There will be no US troops setting up camp between Hamas/Hezbollah/PA and Israel.. And absolutely no US troops under Israeli command.. Hell man it's controversial to put US troops under British Command in peace zones.. Besides Israel wouldn't accept such a role. Israel has a long standing policy of not allowing any other country to fight it's battles. That includes us. It goes back to the Holocost and ensuring Israel always has the means to defend itself. If no matter what they do, you do the same thing, then you don't really have any influence now. If we aren't, can't, or don't go to them and say if you continue to do what you are doing (and this goes beyond the current offensive and to things like settlements in the occupied territories), there will be repercussions (e.g. cutting of US aid). Then we don't have any influence now. We have no way to affect their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 If no matter what they do, you do the same thing, then you don't really have any influence now. You are suggesting America has no influence in Israel? That's absurd. We have as much or more influence in Israel as Israeli political leaders have here. We all know that's considerable. If we aren't, can't, or don't go to them and say if you continue to do what you are doing (and this goes beyond the current offensive and to things like settlements in the occupied territories), there will be repercussions (e.g. cutting of US aid). Then we don't have any influence now. We have no way to affect their behavior. Diplomacy is more like golf than greko roman wrestling. We've got a lot of clubs in the bag. Lots of moves, which would impact Netanyahu politically without impacting Israels security. That's short of canceling aid. Our involvement with Israel is in the political arena and we should handle it thus. Netayahu plays hard ball politics.. so should we. If you wanted to send shockwaves through the Israeli politcal system all you would have to do is to not have a white house meeting with the ISraeli PM the next time he's in the US. That would be front page news and send schock waves through Netanyahu's political coalition. Not receive high ranking IDF generals at the pentagon. Call the US ambassador home for "consultations".. ( which is a huge deal ). Remind Israel of their obligation on how they use us Weapons... Instead of sending them the latest software and patch releases for the F-15's... send them three months late. Instead of giving them the aid in a lump sum at the beginning of the year.. give it to them monthly, or quarterly... You could ratchet up such a politcal storm in Israel with these kinds of nits you wouldn't ever have to actually do anything meaningful in order to exert more influence on Israeli politics... Hell do what Clinton did... go over to Israel during their election cycle and spend a week traveling around with the opposition party... throw your arm around him and let everybody know how much you enjoy working with Netanyahu's political opposition. Netanyahu does that kind of thing here. Return the favor... You don't want to threaten Israeli security or call into question our support or friendship. You want to motivate Israel to follow the coarse of action we are advocating and not listen to the folks counseling otherwise. That's fundamentally a political issue. Yanking US aid would not be as powerful a move in working towards our desired end game as some of the other steps I've outlined.. Besides it's not like the President is a dictator even here in the US and on US policy. There are limits to his power. The last Israeli arms package which the administration was "caught off guard" in being sent to Israel. That passed the Senate with unanimous support. Any political move we make, you've got to expect the Israeli's are going to respond politically too. Which is fine. They are going to try to characterize the US President as toothless and powerless because that makes their actions more politically acceptable domestically. But that's all window dressing. The US Israeli relationship is very important to Israel and just plucking those strings would change a lot of the variables in Netanyahuu's political calculator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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