mistertim Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Eh the UNRWA is basically just an extension of Hamas. Just ask twa. Nothing to see here. So some people got blown up. What's the big deal? They were probably terrorists anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Good for Israel. They need to give refugees more time to reach the schools before they can bomb them anyway. https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak Reuters: Israel declares a humanitarian truce for most parts of Gaza tomorrow which will last from 8am to 3pm (BST) 6:11 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Eh the UNRWA is basically just an extension of Hamas. Just ask twa. Nothing to see here. So some people got blown up. What's the big deal? They were probably terrorists anyway. Where they firing from the location struck? doing so is a war crime, but they were probably just dropping off some missiles and picking up a meal ......right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 “It seems that it was an Israeli airstrike, according to our staff on the ground,” said Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the agency, which is assisting more than 200,000 Palestinian evacuees at 90 schools and other facilities in Gaza. “They shelled near the gate of the school. Multiple people were killed inside and outside the school.” A U.N. employee was among those killed, he said. Capt. Eytan Buchman, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, said the targets of the attack were three militants riding past the school on a motorcycle. “We identified a successful hit on the target,” Buchman said. “We definitely don’t target civilians or schools.” Pretty awful, even if we're to assume they aren't just lying. (just noticed I posted the wrong link, sorry). Correct link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-school-in-gaza-attacked-as-israel-nears-its-objective-in-tunnel-mission/2014/08/03/09e827a2-1adf-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Time to change the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Time to change the subject. Something about abortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Something about abortion? cute....any idea if the three targeted are among the 10 dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 cute....any idea if the three targeted are among the 10 dead? According to the reports, yes. So 7 people who don't matter died. You keep defending this stuff, let me ask you a question. Would you be fine with it if one of your children were a casualty in a conflict? Not intentional, but hey they were around a target, just a fact of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 Just realized I posted the wrong link for the article earlier. Here's some more info too: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-school-in-gaza-attacked-as-israel-nears-its-objective-in-tunnel-mission/2014/08/03/09e827a2-1adf-11e4-9349-84d4a85be981_story.html But according to eyewitnesses and U.N. officials, an Israeli missile struck just outside the gates of the school. About 3,000 Palestinians were seeking refuge at the facility, and a crowd of civilians had gathered outside — children buying ice cream from a sidewalk vendor, and men and women purchasing food or cigarettes, witnesses said. The missile hit the motorcycle, said the witnesses, and then crashed into the road. Shrapnel flew in every direction, slicing into more than 40 people, and killing at least seven civilians, including a boy. Presumably, the three militants Israel had targeted died, too. A U.N. employee was among those killed, said Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, which is assisting more than 200,000 Palestinian evacuees at 90 schools in Gaza. “There were bodies all over the ground, covered in blood,” recalled Muhamed Yafei, 45, an air-conditioner repairman who had been staying inside the school. Among the dead, he said, was the ice-cream vendor. The youngest victim, Saqer Al-Kashif, 8, had walked outside to buy ice cream. He was severely wounded in the blast and later died of his injuries. His body, covered in a white shroud, was brought back Sunday afternoon to the school, where his father kissed his head before taking him to the cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 According to the reports, yes. So 7 people who don't matter died. You keep defending this stuff, let me ask you a question. Would you be fine with it if one of your children were a casualty in a conflict? Not intentional, but hey they were around a target, just a fact of war. 3 people that don't to me died. Of course I would not be fine with it,nor do I expect their parents to be......on the other hand it happens,and has to my child fwiw from the report so far I would say the missile should not have been fired(subject to further info) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Caretaker Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 That's okay, Palestinians are sub-humans remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 That's okay, Palestinians are sub-humans remember? To Hamas apparently....how many have they executed on the street? How many of their Fatah brothers and sisters have they killed? add what's the matter ?....Don't want to play the counting of the bodies now? there goes a few thrown off a tall building, a few more executed in a hospital.....I can go on and on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I can go on and on We know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSkinz Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Hmm, I guess I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Maybe if you elaborate a bit more about your rhetorical question I'd be able to better answer you... I wasn't intentionally trying to put a political spin on it; that entire region has a long-running history of conflict and violence, so I thought I was giving a pretty factually-accepted description of the region. In addition, I sought to provide some context by giving some of the most recent examples of how extremist people and organizations are typically able to insert themselves into positions of power. Germany was war torn after WW1. These people are opressed. I should know I was part of the opression for 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Has anyone ever read the Likuid Party platform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 4, 2014 Author Share Posted August 4, 2014 https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/558739-hrw-israel-killed-fleeing-gazans-in-likely-war-crime HRW: Israel killed fleeing Gazans in likely war crime JERUSALEM - Human Rights Watch on Monday accused Israel of killing civilians as they attempted to flee a stricken neighborhood of Gaza, in what it said would amount to a war crime. In a report that cited Palestinians who managed to get out of Khuza'a, HRW said the attacks on the town near the southern city of Khan Yunis occurred at the end of July. "Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza'a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25," said the New York-based watchdog. "Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes." Civilians faced "grave dangers" in Khuza'a, including repeated shelling, lack of access to medical care, and coming under attack from the Israelis as they attempt to flee to Khan Yunis. https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/558716-gaza-violence-subsides-but-tensions-soar-in-jerusalem Gaza violence subsides, but tensions soar in Jerusalem Israel largely held its fire in a temporary lull in Gaza on Monday, on the 28th day of a conflict which has drawn increasingly vocal condemnation from around the world. Images of the bloodletting in Gaza, which has claimed more than 1,800 Palestinian lives and 67 in Israel, have sent tensions soaring across the region and drawn sharp condemnation from around the world. Violence also erupted in Jerusalem, with police saying they had foiled a "terror attack" after a Palestinian rammed an earthmover into a bus, killing one and wounding five before being shot dead himself. Shortly afterwards, a soldier was shot and badly wounded near a bus stop not far from the site of the earlier attack by a gunman who fled, with police combing the area to find him. On the ground in Gaza, Israeli troops, which had begun withdrawing from besieged enclave at the weekend, were observing a seven-hour humanitarian lull in most of the tiny coastal enclave which was due to end at 1400 GMT. The unilateral truce was announced as international outrage grew over an Israeli strike on Sunday next to a UN school that killed 10 people, among them refugees who had been seeking refugee from the violence. It was the third such strike in 10 days. Hamas said it would not be observing the truce, with the Israeli army reporting 24 rockets fired by militants in the first four hours of the lull, 15 of which struck Israeli territory and another of which was shot down. But the truce got off to a shaky start with an air strike levelling a house in a beachfront refugee camp in Gaza City, killing three people, among them a nine-year-old girl, the emergency services said. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-04/two-jerusalem-attacks-raise-fears-of-gaza-fighting-spillover.html Israel Says Tunnel Campaign Over Within Hours Amid Truce Reports Israel’s military said today it was on course to destroy within hours all known tunnels dug by Hamas guerrillas in the Gaza Strip, meeting one of its stated objectives for an offensive ending its fourth week. Gaza militant groups reported progress toward a 72-hour truce; Israel had no comment. “We destroyed all the tunnels we knew of,” Major General Sami Turgeman, head of Israel’s southern command, said in comments broadcast on Channel 2 television. “All the tunnels we discovered in the course of the operation, we destroyed. In the next few hours, we’ll complete the tunnel operation.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 https://twitter.com/AP BREAKING: Israeli military: All forces will have withdrawn from Gaza by start of cease-fire at 8 a.m. 12:40 AM https://twitter.com/ABC Israeli military asserts all forces are currently leaving the Gaza Strip as 3-day ceasefire takes effect - @MarquardtA 1:18 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 5, 2014 Author Share Posted August 5, 2014 http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/05/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 Israel declares 'mission accomplished' as troops leave Gaza for cease-fire Withdrawing its ground forces from Gaza Tuesday for a three-day cease-fire with Hamas, Israel announced that its central goal was achieved. "Mission accomplished," the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said on Twitter. "We have dismantled the underground terror network built by Hamas to infiltrate and attack Israel." The military said 32 tunnels were destroyed in the four-week conflict. The declaration came amid suspicions on both sides over whether the 72-hour humanitarian cease-fire will hold. Nearly 1,900 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza during the conflict, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. It's unclear how many were militants. The United Nations estimates that about 70% of the dead were civilians. But the IDF says about 900 militants were killed. It did not provide a breakdown of the victims by age or gender. Israeli officials have said 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians in Israel have died. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/rafah-gaza-war-hospitals-filled-bodies-palestinians.html# Never ask me about peace again Tears flowed until my body ran dry of them when I received a telephone call on Aug. 3, informing me that my family had been targeted by two F-16 missiles in the city of Rafah. Such was the fate of our family in a war that still continues, with every family in the Gaza Strip receiving its share of sorrow and pain. My father’s brother, Ismail al-Ghoul, 60, was not a member of Hamas. His wife, Khadra, 62, was not a militant of Hamas. Their sons, Wael, 35, and Mohammed, 32, were not combatants for Hamas. Their daughters, Hanadi, 28, and Asmaa, 22, were not operatives for Hamas, nor were my cousin Wael’s children, Ismail, 11, Malak, 5, and baby Mustafa, only 24 days old, members of Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine or Fatah. Yet, they all died in the Israeli shelling that targeted their home at 6:20 a.m. on Sunday morning. Their house was located in the Yibna neighborhood of the Rafah refugee camp. It was one story with a roof made of thin asbestos that did not require two F-16 missiles to destroy. Would someone please inform Israel that refugee camp houses can be destroyed, and their occupants killed, with only a small bomb, and that it needn’t spend billions to blow them into oblivion? If it is Hamas that you hate, let me tell you that the people you are killing have nothing to do with Hamas. They are women, children, men and senior citizens whose only concern was for the war to end, so they can return to their lives and daily routines. But let me assure you that you have now created thousands — no, millions — of Hamas loyalists, for we all become Hamas if Hamas, to you, is women, children and innocent families. If Hamas, in your eyes, is ordinary civilians and families, then I am Hamas, they are Hamas and we are all Hamas. Throughout the war, we thought that the worst had passed, that this was the pivotal moment when matters would improve, that they would stop there. Yet, that real moment of pain, of extreme fear, was always followed by something even worse. Now I understood why the photographs of corpses were so important, not only for international public opinion, but for us, the families, in search for an opportunity to bid farewell to our loved ones, so treacherously killed. What were they doing in those last moments? What did they look like after their death? I discovered the photos of my dead relatives on social networking sites. The bodies of my cousin’s children were stored in an ice cream freezer. Rafah’s Abu Yousef al-Najjar Hospital was closed after being shelled by Israeli tanks, and the Kuwaiti Hospital that we visited just a day earlier had become an alternate venue, where this freezer was the only option available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 Interesting piece on just war theory and proportionality: http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/philosophy/gaza-is-israel-and-hamass-conflict-a-just-war Gaza: Is Israel fighting a just war? Grasping the ethics of the crisis requires us to properly understand the concept of proportionality by Jeff McMahan / August 5, 2014 Israeli soliders: “If Israel were to abandon the aim of controlling territories to which it has no right, those who fire rockets into Israel would lose what sway they have.” Introduction: setting the terms of the debate Thus far in the war in Gaza, more than 1800 Palestinians have been killed, most of them apparently civilians. Sixty three Israeli soldiers, two Israeli civilians, and one foreign worker in Israel have also been killed. The great disparity between the casualties on the two sides raises the question of whether Israeli military action has been disproportionate. This question remains important even if the war is now coming to an end. I will argue that Israel’s action has indeed been disproportionate, though this will require an explanation of what proportionality is, as it is a notion that is widely misunderstood. Despite the bombings of two Palestinian schools that the UN had designated civilian sanctuaries, I will assume that Israeli forces have not been attacking civilians intentionally. What I will argue is that the killing of Palestinian civilians as a foreseeable but unintended side effect of defensive military action has been disproportionate in relation to the aim of protecting Israeli civilians and soldiers from attacks by Palestinian fighters. To preempt misunderstanding, it is necessary to state explicitly that I accept that Hamas’s indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel are wrong, as are its storing weapons in schools, private homes, and mosques, its locating entrances to tunnels in the same places, and its firing missiles from civilian areas in a way that attracts Israeli retaliatory fire to those areas. I believe that Palestinian resistance to Israel’s unjust quarantine of Gaza and unjust occupation and settlement of the West Bank ought, for both moral and prudential reasons, to be nonviolent in character. One might think that it requires no argument to show that the killing of Palestinian civilians has been disproportionate, since no Israeli civilians were killed by Hamas in 2013 or 2014 before Israel began bombing Gaza earlier this summer in response to the killing—not, apparently, under the direct orders of Hamas—of three Israeli teenagers. But proportionality in defence does not depend on a comparison between harms one has suffered in the past and harms one causes in response. That is something different: proportionality in reprisal. Proportionality in defence is instead a relation between harms one causes and harms one seeks to avert in the future. And I think it should be granted that Israel’s war has been defensive rather than retaliatory or punitive in its aims. I accept that Israel’s main aims have been to prevent further rocket attacks from Gaza and to destroy the tunnels that have enabled Palestinian fighters to enter Israel to kill or abduct Israeli soldiers. In the effort to achieve these aims, Israeli policy has been to give near-absolute priority to the protection of its own civilians and soldiers over the avoidance of killing Palestinian civilians. The permissibility of giving priority to the protection of one’s own soldiers (“force protection”) was advocated in articles by certain Israeli just-war theorists in the middle of the last decade and these seem to have influenced the conduct of the invasion of Gaza in 2008-2009, which in turn set the precedent for the way the current invasion is being conducted. Thus the New York Times reported on 1st August that, as Israeli forces have advanced, “they have pummeled neighborhoods with heavy artillery, which analysts said was militarily necessary to safeguard soldiers. … ‘In a dense urban environment, you need to use aggressive force to save soldiers’ lives,’ [Amos] Harel, the military affairs analyst, said.” There are thus two questions: (1) Are the killings of Palestinian civilians proportionate in relation to the aim of protecting Israeli civilians? (2) Are the killings of Palestinian civilians proportionate in relation to the aim of protecting Israeli soldiers? . . . More at link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 5, 2014 Share Posted August 5, 2014 perhaps they used the Hamas prisoner swap proportions? ....1,027 for 1 was it? less than one dead Palestinian for every rocket fired into Israel seems light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 6, 2014 Author Share Posted August 6, 2014 http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/05/warsi-attacks-morally-indefensible-stand-gaza-quits-coalition Warsi attacks 'morally indefensible' stand on Gaza as she quits coalition The government's policy towards the Israeli incursion into Gaza was in danger of falling apart on Tuesday night in the wake of the surprise resignation of the Foreign Office minister Sayeeda Warsi and a demand by Nick Clegg that Britain immediately suspend arms export licences to Israel. Lady Warsi said the prime minister had lost moral authority, undermined the national interest and deprived Britain of its historic role as an honest broker in the Middle East by refusing to condemn the aggressive Israeli response to the Hamas rocket attacks as disproportionate. In her strongly worded resignation letter, whose morning publication came as a surprise to No 10, Warsi warned that "our approach and language during the current crisis in Gaza is morally indefensible [and] is not in Britain's national interest". She also complained that Cameron's response may become "a basis for radicalisation [which] could have consequences for us for years to come". Her departure came after internal argument inside the National Security Council over Cameron's refusal to condemn the aggressive Israeli response to the Hamas rocket attacks. British ministers have condemned the outcome of the Israeli bombings as intolerable and appalling, but Cameron has barred ministers from describing the Israeli bombings as disproportionate, and refused to attribute final blame prematurely even for some of the attacks on UN schools in Gaza. Warsi's departure exacerbated coalition tensions over Gaza, as Clegg urged an immediate suspension of arms export licences, saying that Israel had breached the conditions. He said the suspension should remain in force until agreement has been reached across the government on any permanent revocation in the coming days. Ministers agreed a review of the licences last week, but Clegg has decided to ratchet up the pressure, saying: "I believe the actions of the Israeli military, overstepping the mark in Gaza, breach the conditions of those export licences and that's why we want to see them suspended pending a wider review of whether they should be revoked more permanently in the long run." https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/558970-israel-palestinians-poles-apart-at-cairo-talks Israel, Palestinians poles apart at Cairo talks Israeli and Palestinian officials set for crunch talks in Cairo will decide whether to extend a fragile truce and who can best profit from the latest fighting in Gaza. Analysts say the jury is still out on who won or lost the most from the one-month conflict that killed 67 in Israel and more than 1,870 Palestinians, cautioning that a tentative ceasefire could erupt quickly into further bloodshed. A small Israeli and a joint Palestinian delegation, representing the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, have been dispatched to the Egyptian capital with demands all but impossible to reconcile. The United States will "likely" participate in the talks, a State Department spokesperson said in Washington. One of the Palestinians' key demands in Cairo will be the lifting of Israel's blockade, which suffocates the tiny sliver of territory, home to 1.8 million people and smaller than Britain's holiday island, the Isle of Wight. The Palestinian delegation also wants Israel and Egypt to open Gaza's border crossings. "If results don't tally with attacks then Hamas won't come out stronger, quite the contrary," said George Giacaman, professor at Bir Zeit University in the West Bank. Israeli officials want nothing coming into Gaza that could be used to build tunnels used by Palestinian fighters to infiltrate Israel and a major reason for Israel's ground offensive. Asked about a possible lifting of the blockade, Yigal Palmor, spokesman for the foreign ministry, said Israel allows the passage of "almost everything, including building materials, provided they are intended for projects led by the UN, international organizations, foreign countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The problem with the discussion is the refusal of either side to acknowledge that they hold responsibility for whats happening there. There is no solution. There is only sustained war, which in turn, brings both sides what they really want, MONEY from the rest of the world. Their is absolutely a solution, that solution just doesn't have a military or violent aspect. Amazingly their is even consensus on what that solution is, and there has been a consensus by all sides now going on two decades... Previous and parts of the current Israel's government and the majority of her citizens are on record as favoring land for peace based upon the 67 boarders. So are the majority of Palestinians, and the Palestinian Authority... Even Hamas has said they would support such a deal if it were put up for a referendum vote by Palestinians. The only dispute for the last few decades has been terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Those pesky details..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Those pesky details..... I guess my thoughts are... We are currently about around 1865 Palestinians dead, most women and children and innocents. nearly 10,000 injured, million displaced and up too 3,000 Palestinian homes destroyed or damaged. On the Israeli side 69 Israeli soldiers have been killed and 3 civilians have died. http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/04/374035/gaza-death-toll-hits-1865/ Although we may not be done yet... If this thing ended today, or if this ends a month from now, or if this thing had never occurred... the status quo will not have changed. Hamas and 1.8 million Palestinians will be in Gaza... Gaza will still be blockaded by land sea, and air. And occasional rockets will fly from Gaza into Greater Israel... Their just is no military solution for either side. Given this and also given we know Land for Peace is the formula both sides mostly agree with.... We also know roughly the territory under discussion, and the exceptions which would make the 67 boarders palatable for both sides. That seems like a significant amount of issues they agree on..... The issues of Contention are ... Water Rights. ( all of Israel's best aquiffers are in land ISrael would be giving up. Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights ). Solution under discussion was water pipeline from Turkey or another outside country paid for by the US. Jerusalem. ( the solution under discussion was for Israel to retain control over most of it, and the PA gaining control of a suburb which they would make their capital. ) Settlements ( they remain in place but become part of the new PA state ). Right of Return ( a portion of the dispossessed are allowed to return, a fund is created to reimburse those who would rather get the cash, still contentious would be whether the decision to get the payments vs lands would be mandatory or a personal choice. ) US would probable have to pay for some of that fund. Whether the new Palestinian state would be armed or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 The key piece will be arms. No chance Israel allows it, or allows anything past the blockade that could be used to attack them. The distrust is too deep. The rest of it looks easy really. Both sides and the International Community could and would go along. It's the rockets and tunnels that will keep it from happening. A question for anyone to answer. Has the PA ever tried to create a Palestinian State that ONLY included the West Bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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