Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I'd also like to apologize to TheGreatBuzz for not debating the topic in a more civil (no pun intended) fashion last night. I sometimes go a little overboard on the topic of racism and was not trying to call you out or go after you directly, but after re-reading my posts today, I could see where one might interpret my intentions differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 For the record, Washington & Lee is as a deeply weird a college as exists in the US. And I'm not just saying that because it's the only college that rejected me. But I am also totally saying that because it rejected me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 About 10 years ago, I bought a 1:18 scale model of the General Lee Dodge Charger from the Dukes of Hazzard show. I have the car in a cabinet for display. Of course it has the rebel flag. I bought it mainly for the car since I was a kid when the show came on and loved the show. I would never fly a rebel flag, of course I'm not "southern" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 About 10 years ago, I bought a 1:18 scale model of the General Lee Dodge Charger from the Dukes of Hazzard show. I have the care in a cabinet for display. Of course it has the rebel flag. I bought it mainly for the car since I was a kid when the show came on and loved the show. I would never fly a rebel flag, of course I'm not "southern" either. I think that falls into the small percentage of acceptance. Now if someone said they were flying their rebel flag in support of the Dukes of Hazzard, I would be hard pressed to believe them lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I honestly don't see the issue with either of our posts. Neither do I for what it's worth. Why must people feel the need to try and change history. It happened. The flags are proof. Removing the proof equates to turning a blind eye. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. We're getting so PC as a nation. (I do not agree with the confederacy, its principles, or otherwise. Just sick of holier than thou people getting involved in stuff they have no business meddling in...IMO) You know what makes a great place to study history? A museum. Okay. I can't think of anyone I know that still flys it but have known people who did throughout my life. I'd say the percentage of people I know who flew it at some point and were racist is lower than the percentage of people I know that are racist and don't fly it. I'm from southern Maryland and currently live in Guam. Anything else? Sounds like a very scientific assessment. I think the issues are similar and I'll explain my reasoning. Yes, the Civil War was over racism. If you read all the letters from the southern commissioners, politicians and leaders you will see that they rarely if ever mention states rights. The thousands of letters that have been collected all say things along the line of "The negro will destroy our community" "The government wants to put the inferior negro be into an equal office" Things along those lines. It was only after the Civil War that "neo confederates" invented the states rights argument. But even if it is wrong or debatable the Confederate flag has become a symbol for states rights. That may be wrong but the symbol of the flag has evolved from the point of view of the people who fly it. If you ask people who fly the flag what it means I promise you that you will hear "States rights" and not "I hate blacks" I buy that most people who fly the confederate flag aren't hardcore racists. On the other hand, I imagine they're guilty of a shade more of the involuntary racism we're all guilty of from time to time. I don't buy that it's a symbol for states' rights. That's baloney. People who fly it casually at home or paint it on their trucks with no intention of racism are channeling that southern spirit of independence, individuality and cheerful rebelliousness they aspire to. That's not the same as states' rights. It's not a bad thing, but they aren't making a conscious, nuanced political argument. They are posting something that gives them a warm, fuzzy feeling about their identity and their culture. Anyway, Indiana Jones said it best: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Each has completely different backgrounds and origins. The confederate flag was created by Southern American people to describe themselves. It later was used as a racial slur, but the original intent of the usage of the word was not. You were talking about the difference between the Redskins and the confederate flag above. I took your sentence and substituted some words. I thought it was interesting. Are there people that fly the flag who are not racist? Yes, it's possible. But everyone I knew or knew of that did (back home) was racist. Sure there will be some stupid kids who don't know better, that might think it's cool because they are "rebels" and rebellious teenagers, or because they like a band and it's included in the artwork on say a T-shirt. I'm not saying there can't be some cases of uneducated/ignorant innocence, but they are rare and far between. Again, I ask the question, why would anyone knowing the history of the flag, what the confederacy stood for, what the vast majority labels racist, want to fly the flag? They are most likely either looking for controversy, looking for a fight, or are racist. So in your opinion is the administration at Washington and Lee who had this flag in the chapel for 80+ years racist, uneducated , ignorant, looking for controversy, or a fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Similar, but still not the same thing. Two completely different scenarios, the only similarity linking them is the question "Is it racist to: a]use the term Redskin; b] fly a rebel flag ?" Each has completely different backgrounds and origins. The term Redskins was created by Native American people to describe themselves. It later was used as a racial slur, but the original intent of the usage of the word was not. There are also a vast majority of Native Americans that do not find the term offensive and use the name as their team name on reservations. So no, I don't believe the term Redskin is racist. If others do that's their opinion and they are entitled to it. If they change the team name, so be it. Those are things out of my control. Lots of folks think it is the same thing. Perhaps they think you're a racist for thinking its not the same thing. Something to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Lots of folks think it is the same thing. Perhaps they think you're a racist for thinking its not the same thing. Something to ponder. Lots of people think Obama is the sane as Stalin, too. Or at least claim they do. They're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 You were talking about the difference between the Redskins and the confederate flag above. I took your sentence and substituted some words. I thought it was interesting. So in your opinion is the administration at Washington and Lee who had this flag in the chapel for 80+ years racist, uneducated , ignorant, looking for controversy, or a fight? Uneducated? Ignorant? No. Again, you're missing my point. The original battle flags belong in the museum on campus, not in the chapel. They also flew the original flags since 1930, you realize that it took until 1968-1970 to resolve segregation in this country and deem it unconstitutional right? The University also confirmed they profited from the purchase and selling of slaves. So yes, the former administration were racists. Is the current administration? I don't know them personally, but they made the decision to take down the replica flags and put them in the museum section of the university, where they belong. They didn't try to hide behind "history" and did the right thing. The school is what 3% black (in current enrollment), so of course being pretty much an all white school, nobody was going to lash out at them demanding the removal. Doesn't mean it was right to fly the flags in a place where all students gather. If for historical reasons, hang them up in the museum where they belong. They did, case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Yeah, I think they did what they should have done. (And I suspect that it will probably cost them some, too). You don't make it the university's logo, so to speak. But yes, it happened, and it's history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 So in your opinion is the administration at Washington and Lee who had this flag in the chapel for 80+ years racist, uneducated , ignorant, looking for controversy, or a fight? Blacks didn't attend W&L until 1969....so....yea for a long time, the administration there was overtly racist. W&L is still a weird place. It's got a very very "Old South" type of vibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Lots of folks think it is the same thing. Perhaps they think you're a racist for thinking its not the same thing. Something to ponder. Fair enough, everyone has their opinion. When you say lots of folks, who are we talking about here? Posters on this board? Some Native Americans? John Smith and Jane Doe random person? I'm not here to debate the Redskins name, I bowed out of that thread a long time ago, because it was getting out of control. I just asked my wife on the phone, what does she think about the rebel flag when she see's it being displayed. Her first response was "racist". It was a point blank question to her, without any details of why I asked her that. I explained why afterwards, but I wanted her straight unbiased opinion. Yes, I know its my wife, but she grew up in the same town I did and agreed that everyone she knew/grew up with that displayed the rebel flag was racist and doesn't know anyone that displayed it that wasn't. I should ask random people what they think/associate with when they see a rebel flag on display and see what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Uh, the folks who don't want it honored aren't trying to ignore history. They want it removed BECAUSE OF its history. Nobody is suggesting we remove the flag so they can pretend the war didn't happen. Uh, you think the folks here are concerned, distraught, offended because WASHINGTON AND LEE Universiity; is honoring the confederate flag by hanging it in the school Chapel named in honor of General Lee? A flag which has hung there reportedly for the last 80-90 years... It's not an assult on history... I think you're crazy.... It is exclusively an assult on history. History is the only thing being served by hanging this flag in the Lee Chapel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Blacks didn't attend W&L until 1969....so....yea for a long time, the administration there was overtly racist. W&L is still a weird place. It's got a very very "Old South" type of vibe. How many schools in the south/US can say the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Blacks didn't attend W&L until 1969....so....yea for a long time, the administration there was overtly racist. W&L is still a weird place. It's got a very very "Old South" type of vibe. ^^ this is spot on with my point. And they flew the flags for almost 40 years before the first black person attended the university. A bunch of white students, in a time before segregation are not going to complain about a rebel flag being flown, even if they are against it. They look past it because it didn't effect them directly. Uh, you think the folks here are concerned, distraught, offended because WASHINGTON AND LEE Universiity; is honoring the confederate flag by hanging it in the school Chapel named in honor of General Lee? A flag which has hung there reportedly for the last 80-90 years... It's not an assult on history... I think you're crazy.... It is exclusively an assult on history. History is the only thing being served by hanging this flag in the Lee Chapel. It belongs in the museum (on campus or off), not in the chapel. They should have done that years ago, like back in 1968. No campus museum back then? Then store them until one was built or loan to a real museum until it's built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 How many schools in the south/US can say the same? 1969? Not a ton - though I'm not going to research every private school. The public universities were all desegregated in the late 50s and early 60s. By the way, has anyone ever been in the chapel there? It's really weird. Lee's freaking horse is buried there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 1969? Not a ton - though I'm not going to research every private school. The public universities were all desegregated in the late 50s and early 60s. By the way, has anyone ever been in the chapel there? It's really weird. Lee's freaking horse is buried there. Nah, only time I've ever been out to Lexington was to climb House Mountain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Nah, only time I've ever been out to Lexington was to climb House Mountain. Lexington should be surrounded by amber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I am now down an interesting wormhole. Duke desegregated in '62 and admitted students in '63. Rice appears to have been trapped by its charter and did not admit black students until - I think - 66. The charter read, the school was to educate "white inhabitants of the City of Houston, and state of Texas." Strangely, the charter did not prevent out of state or Hispanic students from enrolling. So who knows what the hell was happening there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Blacks didn't attend W&L until 1969....so....yea for a long time, the administration there was overtly racist. W&L is still a weird place. It's got a very very "Old South" type of vibe. Integration for all of Virginia's Schools was a long process even for state owned schools... Blacks started to be given entrance to the schools graduate programs in the 1950's, and then some selective undergrade programs in the 60's. But they didn't get full access to all undergraduate programs even at state schools until the 1970's... http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Desegregation_in_Higher_Education Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grhqofb5 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 So, here's how the analogy goes: (1) The United States defeated the Confederacy/Indians during the course of warfare, mostly during the 19th century. (2) White people make use of the Redskins/Confederate Flag for private purposes. (3) Black people are overwhelmingly "offended" by the use of the Confederate Flag due to the symbolism/history associated with it. (4) Native Americans overwhelmingly are not "offended" by use of the term Redskins. (5) White people (nationwide) agree (meaning recognize) with Blacks that the use of the confederate flag is offensive in most circumstances. (6) White people (nationwide) agree (meaning recognize) with Native Americans that the term "Redskins" is not offensive in most circumstances. Therefore, the use of the Confederate flag by white people in most circumstances is probably not going to make you many friends. However, the use of the terms "Redskins" in most circumstances is and will remain acceptable, until item no. (4) changes. However, what white people need to understand is that what white people believe in items (5) and (6) is irrelevant, at least with this analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 How many schools in the south/US can say the same? It's probable pretty representative... especially for private schools... Virginia was pretty hard core segragationist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 It's probable pretty representative... especially for private schools... Virginia was pretty hard core segragationist. Georgia - shockingly - seems to be have been pretty quick across the board. Georgia and Georgia Tech were desegregated in '61. Emory followed suite in '63, though the faculty voted in favor of it in '58. Mercer, a private Baptist school, opened up in '63 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 So, here's how the analogy goes: There is no analogy.... "white people use the Redskins name"". Everybody in and around the DC area use the term Redskins with affection, and without any guilt or concern they are being derogitory. White black yellow and brown.... The term hasn't had a derogitory meaning in this region for generations. The confederate flag is an entirely different matter. It is used as a racial symbol, Skin heada and KKK. It's also used by organization with no pretence of racism; like state governments, Universities, historical organizations like the DAR and DAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Georgia - shockingly - seems to be have been pretty quick across the board. Georgia and Georgia Tech were desegregated in '61. Emory followed suite in '63, though the faculty voted in favor of it in '58. Mercer, a private Baptist school, opened up in '63 as well. Doing the research here we have to be careful to compare apples to apples. UVA, Virginia Tech on their history sites say they were integrated in the early 1950's when they admitted the first black student (1) to a graduate level program. If you look I'll bet you would find that similar distiction with Georgia Tech and Emory... When did they allow blacks to fully integrate and particate in all majors both graduate and undergraduate. That's is the distiction which takes us into the 1970's for Virginia Schools. I think the entire South came to integration kicking and screaming.... I was frankly suprised when I attended school in Boston MA in the mid 1980's that their housing projects were still segregated. Some politically appointed washington type from the Reagan government found out Boston's housing projects were segregated and threatenned to withhold Federal funding if they didn't integrate immediately... I remember the protests and burning cars as the first minority family was walked by police into their new home in East Boston 1987... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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