Brees, Culpepper, and RG3. Potential and Perils.

[Riggo-toni]

By the end of his 3rd year in '03, the almost universal opinion was that Drew Brees was a bust. The Chargers were the worst team in football under Schottenheimer/Brees and used the #1 pick to draft Eli Manning, which they soon traded to NY for Phillip Rivers and picks that would later turn into pro-bowlers Shawn Merriman and Nate Kaeding. Brees was to be kept for the last year of his contract to allow Rivers time to develop from the bench, much like Kurt Warner's role in NY. Rather than taking it lying down, Brees underwent vigorous visual/mental memory training. A somewhat unorthodox approach, he trained himself to look at some area for a split second, and then recall as many details as possible. He did this along with the usual offseason workouts/film study.

In 04 the quantum leap in his progress was such that the team franchised him at season's end despite having so much invested in Rivers. It was only after his serious shoulder injury the next year that AJ Smith let him walk, and Brees has been setting records ever since, despite being shorter than the prototypical NFL QB. He went from being a manager who reputedly couldn't read defenses to a guy who lights it up and makes fast decisions.

Duante Culpepper was bigger than Big Ben, had a cannon for an arm, and was fast. The Vikings got him by using one of the 3 draft picks the Skins sent them for Brad Johnson. His 2nd year he took the team to the NFC title game. A couple years later he broke what had been Marino's single season TD passing record and might've been in the running for MVP, except that Peyton Manning had already broken it a week before and managed to stay just ahead in the TD passes race.

Then Culpepper suffered a major knee injury. In addition, his pro-bowl OL Corey Stringer died tragically in camp.

Culpepper's combination of size and speed had made teams afraid to blitz him, and first priority was given to containing him in the pocket...but having had an elite offensive line and the league's best deep threat in Randy Moss had spoiled Culpepper. Once the threat of his outside speed was neutralized and the favorable advantages he'd had with protection and Moss were gone, he was exposed for never having learned to make quick decisions, and his career tanked.

RG3 last year took the league by storm, and by surprise. He literally had near-olympic speed, and the threat of the R-Option left LBs so frozen our WRs were constantly wide open in the middle of the field.

He is still a quick QB, but his post-injury speed is not so daunting as to stifle defenses as it did last year. Over the last half dozen games or so we've seen every defensive coordinator send stunt blitzes up the middle to overpower our pathetically undersized interior OL and subject our QB to brutal punishment. Like Culpepper, I think RG3 was a bit "spoiled" by what defenses surrendered to him last year out of fear and unfamiliarity. He is not used to seeing his primary targets so well covered, nor has he developed the inner clock to push him to throw the ball away or go to the hot read. It's not all his fault. Kyle should've given him more bubble screens and such (and stayed more committed to AlMo when feasible) at the beginning to ease him back in. And of course, there was no offseason. The great unknown now is, will RG3 respond and make the mental leaps that Brees did, or will he be unable to adjust to the loss of elements of his athleticism and the tremendous advantages they afforded. Let's hope it's the former.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If ONLY we'd of had a coaching staff working WITH Robert instead of AGAINST him all year we wouldn't be having to pose the end question now. (I don't think he's lost much if any of his speed personally but that's neither here nor there to the wider point.). 

 

Hail. 

[BraunMan92]

Taking off the brace next season should help with RGIIIs speed.

[kleese]

This is an excellent, excellent thread. Well done.

So good that I have little to add. Some people just don't want to hear that rg3's legs are the main reason he was SO amazing in 2012. He doesn't mean he can't throw the ball or that he can't adapt. But the fact that he could take a QB draw 76 yards to the house made him freeze defenses and left open WRs everywhere. With that threat greatly limited along with a natural adjustment, he isn't nearly as effective.

It makes sense. It isn't rocket science and it isn't "hating" on him to point it out. Hating would be to say that he's a one trick pony and will never be good again.

Culpepper couldn't adapt once his game was forcibly changed. There were also rumors he wasn't the hardest worker in the world. We already know that isn't an issue with RG... He will work and he will work maniacally. That coupled with his physical gifts and brain lead me to believe he is more likely to follow the path of Brees... But it is certainly worth talking about.

[darrelgreenie]

Or maybe he should have been developed like any other QB?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Or maybe he should have been developed like any other QB?

 

Nail, meet kleese's head. 

 

Hail. 

[steve09ru]

If ONLY we'd of had a coaching staff working WITH Robert instead of AGAINST him all year we wouldn't be having to pose the end question now. (I don't think he's lost much if any of his speed personally but that's neither here nor there to the wider point.). 

 

Hail. 

The only issue is that you don't develop that during the season, you develop most of that in the off-season.  The problem is that RG3 missed the off-season so he is learning it all in game rather than through OTA's, Minicamp, Training Camp, Preseason.  He hasn't had time to get in sync with the receivers or anything else.  You can't learn things like this during practice in-season because you have limited practice time and that is devoted to game-plans and plays for the upcoming defense.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The only issue is that you don't develop that during the season, you develop most of that in the off-season.  The problem is that RG3 missed the off-season so he is learning it all in game rather than through OTA's, Minicamp, Training Camp, Preseason.  He hasn't had time to get in sync with the receivers or anything else.  You can't learn things like this during practice in-season because you have limited practice time and that is devoted to game-plans and plays for the upcoming defense.

 

13 weeks into the season that becomes WAY over blown to me man. 

 

Hail. 

[You'reNext]

Dante Culpper was never that fast.  He had 4.6 speed like Cam Newton.  The combination of his size (6-5 265 lbs) and speed is what made him dangerous but he never had breakaway speed.

[TimmySmith]

Brees was always a pocket guy at Purdue and it took him some time to learn the NFL.  Culpepper was an athlete with a strong arm.  His arm went south quickly when his legs gave out because he had horrible mechanics. 

 

Right now RG3 has horrible mechanics and is years behind where Brees was after 2 seasons.   The Skins have tried to turn him into a pocket guy and the results are not good so far.  Their only hope is to develop a hybrid offense that gets RG3 outside the pocket.  They run no sprint outs, which mystifies me.

[kleese]

Or maybe he should have been developed like any other QB?

If you are saying they should have sacrificed more in 2012 and given RG more of a traditional offense to work through even at the risk of losing more games, I think that is a very valid point.

If we just said screw it from day one and never ran any option concepts and just ran a straight WC offense and let RG learn on the fly (with a healthy knee) that very well may have been best for RG and the team. I actually agree with that.

I'm all for firing the staff (all of them) for their various missteps and for quite possibly mishandling our greatest asset.

But we are dealing now with what he is now.

[BraunMan92]

Yeah, evidence shows you do not try to make RGIIIs type of quarterback a pocket passer.  Yet we do.

[PerryMason]

Taking off the brace next season should help with RGIIIs speed.

 

And more importantly to me the mental aspect of wearing it.  Think The Dark Knight Rises "jump without the rope" mentality.

[darrelgreenie]

The only issue is that you don't develop that during the season, you develop most of that in the off-season.  The problem is that RG3 missed the off-season so he is learning it all in game rather than through OTA's, Minicamp, Training Camp, Preseason.  He hasn't had time to get in sync with the receivers or anything else.  You can't learn things like this during practice in-season because you have limited practice time and that is devoted to game-plans and plays for the upcoming defense.

 I disagree.

Of course the narrative is that Griffin didn't have an offseason but that isn't true.

If we are talking about developing Griffin as a rhythm drop back passer then he could have most certainly improved in that regard IF he was coached.

Below is a clip of Griffin from OTAs (not even training camp starts @ 3:00 ):

 

Griffin was capable then of working through a rhythm drop back instruction even as early as OTAs

 

And by training camp, Griffin could have certainly gone through rhythm drop back development:

 

Its all moot anyway. But, Griffin could have been developed differently there should be no question about that.

[Bishop Hammer]

Great post.

[darrelgreenie]

And I think that you can develop a QB rhythm drop back skills during the season. Teams re-install the entire offense again during the season.

There is unlimited time for an NFL coaching staff. They could have worked after practice, during off days etc.

 

There was time the question is was there a willingness from the coaching staff?

[Riggo-toni]

Dante Culpper was never that fast. He had 4.6 speed like Cam Newton. The combination of his size (6-5 265 lbs) and speed is what made him dangerous but he never had breakaway speed.

Um...did you just not read where I said it was his "combination of size and speed made defenses afraid to blitz him." Or where I noted he was bigger than Big Ben?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If you are saying they should have sacrificed more in 2012 and given RG more of a traditional offense to work through even at the risk of losing more games, I think that is a very valid point.

 

 

I think I actually said something like that at the time - at least early in the season. I thought we were winning with smoke and mirrors and eventually the league would catch up to us.

 

Where I was wrong is that I thought this would happen by Week 9 or 10. Instead, the league seemed even more lost at that point. By then, you need to keep it going.

 

That long winning streak may have been the worst thing that ever happened to this franchise in retrospect.

 

And I'm not exactly sure how the career paths of three wildly different quarterbacks are at all illuminative.

[Riggo-toni]

Right now RG3 has horrible mechanics and is years behind where Brees was after 2 seasons. The Skins have tried to turn him into a pocket guy and the results are not good so far.

Brees was still considered a bust even after his 3rd year, so I don't think it's accurate to say RG3 is years behind where Brees was his 2nd year. Brees looked terrible until '04. SD fans were screaming for Eli, and AJ Smith wanted Rivers. Archie Manning's rants gave Smith the cover to trade Eli for Rivers...which looked brilliant until the Giants won the SB in 07.

[darrelgreenie]

If you are saying they should have sacrificed more in 2012 and given RG more of a traditional offense to work through even at the risk of losing more games, I think that is a very valid point.

If we just said screw it from day one and never ran any option concepts and just ran a straight WC offense and let RG learn on the fly (with a healthy knee) that very well may have been best for RG and the team. I actually agree with that.

I'm all for firing the staff (all of them) for their various missteps and for quite possibly mishandling our greatest asset.

But we are dealing now with what he is now.

No, that implies that the 2 styles of offense are incompatible.

I am not saying Kyle's RGIII offense and a traditional rhythm drop back offense are mutually exclusive.

I think the onus was on him to do both.

But at the very least don't blame a player for lacking something you didn't teach him.

 

But, its all moot now.

[You'reNext]

Um...did you just not read where I said it was his "combination of size and speed made defenses afraid to blitz him." Or where I noted he was bigger than Big Ben?

 

Totally different type of players (RGIII and Culpepper). 

 

RGIII is more like a smaller version of Randall Cunnhingham then Daunte Culpepper.

[KingDinka]

I don't know why I'm able to just accept this as a tough season and look forward for the off-season. Let's not forget folks, this was RG3's 2nd season. Seems like Cam changed the game more than we thought. The pressure on these young QBs are just too much. They don't even have time to develop any friendship or rapport with their teammates and people want to be superbowl contenders.

[steve09ru]

13 weeks into the season that becomes WAY over blown to me man. 

 

Hail. 

 

 

 I disagree.

Of course the narrative is that Griffin didn't have an offseason but that isn't true.

If we are talking about developing Griffin as a rhythm drop back passer then he could have most certainly improved in that regard IF he was coached.

Below is a clip of Griffin from OTAs (not even training camp starts @ 3:00 ):

 

 

Griffin was capable then of working through a rhythm drop back instruction even as early as OTAs

 

And by training camp, Griffin could have certainly gone through rhythm drop back development:

 

 

Its all moot anyway. But, Griffin could have been developed differently there should be no question about that.

 

To an extent, I agree but also disagree

 

I think if you shut him down, it should have been done before the KC game, not after (especially considering the weather)

 

Now in regards to him developing during the offseason, it's completely different doing individual work and 7-7's vs. full 1st team reps and pre-season.  I would understand that if he had ran a traditional offense before but he hasn't, when you haven't actually ran it then I'm sure (of course I don't know, I haven't gone through it before) it's more than just picking it up during the season.  These other quarterbacks have been running traditional offenses and are much more familiar with the basics and mechanics.  Griffin hasn't and it's not something you just pick up during individual work-outs or through gameplans in-season.

 

I still think, regardless of who is here next year from a coaching standpoint, that Griffin will be a much more sound pocket passer because he did get to experience it some this year and can go into the offseason, look at film of this season and what defenses did against him and what he didn't do and improve upon that.  But I also think it's ok to shut him down for the season.  He is taking way too many hits and isn't gaining anything but reps (which are irrelevant at this point because he needs to go back to the basics and mechanics of a drop back passer first) from here on out.

[Riggo-toni]

Totally different type of players (RGIII and Culpepper).

RGIII is more like a smaller version of Randall Cunnhingham then Daunte Culpepper.

I completely agree with that, but that wasn't at all the point I was making. The point was that in both cases their physical abilities, whether it be RG3's olympic speed or Duante's pre-injury speed coupled with his large frame, posed unique difficulties for defenders which gave them advantages in terms of infrequent pressure and open receivers. Both lost this advantage post-injury. Culpepper never adjusted and finished a failure. RG3 is going thru a similar adjustment now. Granted, he may gain much of his quickness back by next year, but it's not a given. The question I was posing was whether he would continue to be overwhelmed or if he would adjust mentally. I presented Culpepper and Brees as the two extreme examples.

[TimmySmith]

Brees was still considered a bust even after his 3rd year, so I don't think it's accurate to say RG3 is years behind where Brees was his 2nd year. Brees looked terrible until '04. SD fans were screaming for Eli, and AJ Smith wanted Rivers. Archie Manning's rants gave Smith the cover to trade Eli for Rivers...which looked brilliant until the Giants won the SB in 07.

It was actually Brees 2nd season of playing, his did not play in his first.  And Brees 2nd season was so bad, that there was obviously a physical problem.  But, Brees never had mechanical problems, nor did he have issues with reading defenses from a pocket.   I do not know if RG3 will be capable of having a career in the pocket.  History says that he will not last outside of it.