Running the Triple Option

[Riggo-toni]

His legs make him special. Paying that price for him and then trying to turn him into a pure pocket guy is lunacy.

I don't disagree, but given that this year is now worthless for anything beyond a learning experience, isn't it a bit reckless this year? Next year (at least pre-December) I'd be fine with it.

What I don't get is why the hell we are not running more (if any) rollout passes. Seems he'd take less abuse as opposed to getting creamed by all the interior stunt blitzes on every 5 step drop.

[darrelgreenie]

His legs do make him special, but they are still just the gravy to the meat and potatoes which are his arm and his head.

We don't need triple option to move the ball. In the first series i.e. the first scoring opening drive of the season you know how many teams we used triple option?

[BraunMan92]

Thank you. His legs make him special. Paying that price for him and then trying to turn him into a pure pocket guy is lunacy.

 

Exactly.  Plus his type of QB is not a strong pocket passer, so why is Shanahan being forced by his dad and Snyder to try to make him one?

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

I don't see a problem with the option. It's just that this Offense needs to become more diverse so they're not so dependent on it. Seattle does a great job of mixing in the option but it doesn't dominate their Offense. Now I can already hear some smart ass RG3 critic saying that it's because Russell Wilson is so much superior than RG3 and he doesn't make commercials or say anything controversial blah blah blah.. I'll grant that WIlson is more effective in aspects of the NFL game because he was more of a traditional passer in College but the bottom line is that he has WR's that actually can catch, linemen who actually can block and an OC who actually can coach and make adjustments.

[darrelgreenie]

Exactly.  Plus his type of QB is not a strong pocket passer.....

Lol, not a strong pocket passer?

Are we talking about the same Robert Lee Griffin III?

 

4,293 yards 37 TDs 6 INTs 10.7 YPA

 

http://www.footballnation.com/content/robert-griffin-the-next-nfl-superstar/9489/

Through the first five weeks of the college football season, there has arguably not been a better or more efficient player than Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin. After four games, Griffin leads the nation in pass efficiency and has thrown 18 touchdown passes and one interception. Perhaps even more impressive is that Griffin has thrown only 20 incomplete passes thus far. His 82.3 completion percentage is far and away the best in the country and Baylor’s offense is fourth in the country in scoring, averaging 47 points a game.

 

Greg Cosell NFL Films:

Based strictly on game tape, however, RG3 was the more remarkable quarterback.

“What immediately jumped out was his arm strength,” Cosell wrote. “… Griffin, for a power thrower, was consistently accurate. The better term for accuracy is ball location. That’s what allows receivers to run after the catch. Griffin excelled in that area.”

Cosell went on to praise Griffin’s “composure in the pocket” as better than Luck’s, as well as RG3′s ability to throw from different arm angles while maintaining consistent accuracy. Cosell suggested that Griffin, despite playing in Baylor’s spread scheme, was less of a system quarterback than Luck, who was “managed and manipulated by his offense.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/24/cosell-deems-rg3-a-superior-arm-talent-and-natural-passer-to-luck/

 

Nope.

Try again.

[RandyHolt]

I read that Cosell piece and wonder, what the hell is Kyle doing?

 

He even resorted to copying some of Baylor's playbook, and still screwed that up.

[kleese]

The player Cosell is talking about does not exist right now. For all intense purposes (yes that was ON purpose) that rg3 is dead. I don't think the current version of rg3 would run Baylor's offense like he did two years ago, much less and NFL offense.

His leg shattered and then his confidence did as well. And then the team and scheme around him also struggled. Horrible combo with an end result being a player that is shockingly different from what he was 13 months ago.

I sure hope he can get it back. But I also thought he'd be closer now than he is.

[Cliffmark1]

tuck had a running start, and griffin was standing in the pocket!  tuck can catch carl lewis from a standing start.

not last year, there were a bunch of plays where RG3 ran out of the pocket bought time and made incredible throws to the chagrin of the Giants.

 

He is just not 100%.  I mean next year if I'm wrong will suck.  But I doubt it I think RG3 come out blazing next year if his will to win is still there.

[darrelgreenie]

The player Cosell is talking about does not exist right now. For all intense purposes (yes that was ON purpose) that rg3 is dead. I don't think the current version of rg3 would run Baylor's offense like he did two years ago, much less and NFL offense.

His leg shattered and then his confidence did as well. And then the team and scheme around him also struggled. Horrible combo with an end result being a player that is shockingly different from what he was 13 months ago.

I sure hope he can get it back. But I also thought he'd be closer now than he is.

How would we know since Griffin isn't being used that way? Did you see him in the 1st series? if so do you recall some of our past conversations about playcalling/gameplan?

Opening script:

(1) Pistol Ace: 12 Personnel (1 RB, 2 TE)

.......................TE..LT..LG..C..RG..RT..TE

X..................................................................................Y

.........................................10

.........................................46

Quick throw--Pump fake (L) WR pass to RB 5 yard middle hook (Pass 1) no huddle

 

(2) Pistol Offset I: 12 Per/ Davis @FB Read Option (L) (Run 1)

(3) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/

X.........................LT..LG..C..LG..LT.............................Y

......................TE...............................TE

........................................10

........................................46

Inside run ®ight (R2)

(4) Gun Trips Left: 10 Per/ (1 RB, 4 WR) Nick Williams arrow/z-slant middle slot (Pass 2) no huddle

(5) Under Center QB sneak (R3)

(6) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Inside run (R4) no huddle

(7) Pistol Offset I: 12 Per/ Paulsen @FB--Play action Garcon leftside Deep Dig/Deep Cross (Pass 3) no huddle

(8) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Zone run right (R5)

(9) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ ALL OUTs every receiver ran a 5 yard speed out connected w/ Morgan ® (Pass 4)

(10) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Outside zone (L) (R6) huddle

(11) Gun Doubles: 11 Per/ (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) Short toss left to Helu (R7)

(12) Pistol Ace Twins (right) motion Helu from backfield to Wide Out left-Connects with FRED DAVIS (who is this guy?) speed out leftside (first down) (Pass 5)

Goalline---

 

Notes on the first drive:

 

o multiple formations: Pistol ACE, Pistol Offset I, Gun Trips, Gun Doubles, Gun Empty

 

 

o Maybe its easier to get into 'turbo'/hurry by using a TE as FB that way we don't have to sub D.Young in and out for different formations? They were mainly in 12 Personnel w/ 1 RB and 2 TEs. Maybe they should consider using more 2 TEs when Jordan returns? You know Jordan and Davis together now that he proved that he can help you?

 

o The previously useless Fred Davis was on the field for almost every snap of the first series and was solid, even had a key 3rd down conversion in the redzone and was effective in the run game on THE FIRST OPENING SCORING DRIVE OF THE SEASON

 

o Hello diversity in the run game. Not only did we stayed commited to the run but we mixed it up! YES! In the same series we saw: outside zone, inside zone, toss and a run from a spread formation

 

o Mostly easy quick rhythm throws:

(1) RB Hook, (we're allowed to throw to the RB? who would have thunk it)

(2) WR (slot) Slant

(3) Play Action-quick play-action on an intermediate route as opposed to full play-action on a slow developing deep downfield route

(4) 5-7 yard quick outs x2- quick rhythm throw (it helps the Giants inexplicable did us a favor and played off coverage as opposed to man which kills our WRs)

 

 

He looked sharp right? Is that just a random flashback of ability? Or how about as long ago as the Bears game? Charger's game? Parts of the Broncos game? The Viking's game?

 

Its the gameplan/playcalling.

 

Again this isn't a discussion based on rhetoric or clever arguments its about xs and os and you can see it on film. Robert is back physically, he's not as dynamic as he was last year but he's still dynamic an its there on film. Going way back to the Lions game. We have this discussion before, many of the same experts Jaws/Cosell that said he wasn't himself point to the Lions game as his return to physical form.

 

And no disrespect but maybe you really can't see it. Maybe the difference can only been seen when you really look at the games and Griffin's role within the gameplan.

 

But you know what hasn't returned to form? The offense. Defenses are playing our 2-man read-option play-action routes that were always open last year 100% percent better. You can see that on film, time and time again. That is a fact. Even Cooley has pointed this out and Cooley doesn't like to tweak criticize Kyle's offense. DEFENSES ARE PLAYING THE READ OPTION BETTER AND  KYLES COUNTER MEASURES TO THE READ OPTION  ARE NOT WORKING.

 

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion. Griffin to my eye is not a different player then he was last year. Maybe during the 1st 2-3 games Griffin wasn't himself, but after that he's been ready however the defenses have caught up to Kyle's offense. And the adjustment by our offensive staff haven't been able to keep pace.

[IrepDC]

prepare for disappointment.  he's not aaron rodgers and never will be.  if he's going to be great, his legs are going to play a major role.

Ironic.

[darrelgreenie]

Ironic.

i know right? Aaron Rodgers is exactly the QB I envision when I see the 'future' version of Griffin. Aaron Rodger but with dynamic speed

[IceDragon38]

The option (whether zone or read) is following the same exact path as the Wildcat back in 2008.

 

The Dolphins use Wildcat, which caught other teams by surprise including the New England Patriots, to a surprise AFC East ttile before losing at home to the Ravens in the playoffs. It didn't hurt that it was also the year of Brady's injury.

 

Of course you know what we did last year.

 

In 2009 other teams, including the Dolphins, continue to use the Wildcat to nowhere near the same level of success that it saw in 2008.  They finish 7-9, 3rd and out of the playoffs.  By 2010 it's hardly even featured, and in this season you almost never see it ran.

 

It had it's fun days, and probably one of the main reasons we had so much success last year.....but it needs to go. 

[Fergasun]

I really enjoyed the successful incorporation of the triple option in the NFL's 2012 season by my beloved Washington Redskins.  I don't have a chance to watch all the games, and I saw a lot more triple option in the GIants game than I thought I'd seen in any of the other national games.  It was working.  I don't buy the fear-mongering re: RG3 (and didn't he hurt himself on passing plays that broke down?).  No one chastizes the Vikings for running Peterson or the Patriots for continuing to drop Brady back or the Packers for how Rodgers got hurt.... etc. etc. etc. 

 

That play this week when Moss was the third option from the slot... awesome.

 

Then again, my dream offense is something where Cousins and RG3 are in the pistol with the misdirection being an RG3 handoff to Cousins for the pass.... that would be a bit too cute.... but still something NFL defense have never had to handle before.  I just don't like how the wildcat stupidly lines up the QB wide rather than put him in the backfield and simply have the wildcat back handoff to him for a pass from a running formation. 

[kleese]

DG--I thought RG played pretty well against the Giants. I also agree that the plan strayed. And the WRs had a bunch of drops that didn't help--especially on the last drive---The drop by Davis being most damning. I thought that game was one of his stronger outings this year.

But go back to what I consider his strongest game as a pro--at the meadowlands last year. If you can watch that tape--don't focus on results, but just on RG himself. Watch the way he is moving, planting, firing. I don't think he is capable of making that 4th down throw he made to Paulsen in that game this year. Literally don't think he can do it.

Watch him run around the edge in that game and watch him try to do it last Sunday---it's like two different dudes.

People that don't care (my friends) and don't watch closely will text me all the time and say "what's wrong with RG" or "wow he looks slow" etc...

He is an NFL QB and a physical freak so of course he can still do certain things. Sometimes he will make a play reminiscent of last year, but not consistently.

If you can look at RG and say you don't see a physical difference in his Performace and capability from this year to last, I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

At no point Sunday did I think he looked as sharp as he did last year---even on the opening drives when he looked very solid.

[kleese]

I also want to make one thing very clear--- I do not "blame" this season on RG. Meaning I am not saying that everything else is in place and RG just messed it up. That is far from the truth or how I feel.

We are flawed on the roster and on the staff. And I do think Kyle has struggled to figure out how to adapt to the "new" RG and the various defenses we have seen.

But most of what was there last year is here again this year. I don't think RG is the same guy and the defenses have adjusted and we haven't. I think that is part of it, but the bigger part is that RG himself isn't himself.

We needed elite to make it work. "Pretty good" doesn't cut it. "Pretty good" could cut it for a stronger roster, but not this one. Last year he was superman---let's face it... If he doesn't make a 76 yard scramble for a TD against Minnesota we probably lose that game last year. This year, I don't think he can make that play. As a matter of fact, I KNOW he can't.

And the ability to make those absurd plays is what made RG3, RG3.

Mike McCarthy didn't get stupid five weeks ago and the other Packers didn't forget how to play. But they absolutely suck now. Awful team. On both sides. Jordy Nelson looks like a waiver wire WR all of a sudden. When you go from elite to not elite it changes everything.

[darrelgreenie]

We can agree to disagree. But my points about the offense are right there on film and dudes like Cooley (his comments about the offense from today will appear manana) but list to Greg Cosell's comments about the offense:

http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=65&c=13491&f=2174163

 

 

And this looks like the guy I remember and this game was from how many weeks ago?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000249079/GameDay-Lions-vs-Redskins-highlights

[ADF]

You can take advantage of Roberts athletic gifts without running a triple option.  We did it last year.  It's different than the more conventional "Read Option" where the QB has time to protect himself by demonstrating that he no longer has the ball.  The triple option is the stuff we ran against the Bengals that almost got him killed.  For it to work effectively, you must be prepared for your QB to take some big hits.  He has to hold on to the ball until the last minutes before giving it to the pitch man.  In the process, the defense is going to hit your QB every time.  That kind of punishment adds up.  Robert clearly has no interest in taking those kinds of shots this year (which is why it hasn't been that successful) and a wise coach wouldn't ask that of his QB.  This should be especially true for a QB who has a history of knee injuries and concussions.

[DubMoney]

You can take advantage of Roberts athletic gifts without running a triple option.  We did it last year.  It's different than the more conventional "Read Option" where the QB has time to protect himself by demonstrating that he no longer has the ball.  It's the stuff we ran against the Bengals that almost got him killed.  For it to work effectively, you must be prepared for your QB to take some big hits.  He has to hold on to the ball until the last minutes before giving it to the pitch man.  In the process, the defense is going to hit your QB every time.  That kind of punishment adds up.  Robert clearly has no interest in taking those kinds of shots this year (which is why it hasn't been that successful) and a wise coach wouldn't ask that of his QB.  This should be especially true for a QB who has a history of knee injuries and concussions.

exactly. almost like Robert has Zero input. that to me is even more alarming. 

[DubMoney]

How would we know since Griffin isn't being used that way? Did you see him in the 1st series? if so do you recall some of our past conversations about playcalling/gameplan?

Opening script:

(1) Pistol Ace: 12 Personnel (1 RB, 2 TE)

.......................TE..LT..LG..C..RG..RT..TE

X..................................................................................Y

.........................................10

.........................................46

Quick throw--Pump fake (L) WR pass to RB 5 yard middle hook (Pass 1) no huddle

 

(2) Pistol Offset I: 12 Per/ Davis @FB Read Option (L) (Run 1)

(3) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/

X.........................LT..LG..C..LG..LT.............................Y

......................TE...............................TE

........................................10

........................................46

Inside run ®ight (R2)

(4) Gun Trips Left: 10 Per/ (1 RB, 4 WR) Nick Williams arrow/z-slant middle slot (Pass 2) no huddle

(5) Under Center QB sneak (R3)

(6) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Inside run (R4) no huddle

(7) Pistol Offset I: 12 Per/ Paulsen @FB--Play action Garcon leftside Deep Dig/Deep Cross (Pass 3) no huddle

(8) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Zone run right (R5)

(9) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ ALL OUTs every receiver ran a 5 yard speed out connected w/ Morgan ® (Pass 4)

(10) Pistol Invert Ace: 12 Per/ Outside zone (L) (R6) huddle

(11) Gun Doubles: 11 Per/ (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) Short toss left to Helu (R7)

(12) Pistol Ace Twins (right) motion Helu from backfield to Wide Out left-Connects with FRED DAVIS (who is this guy?) speed out leftside (first down) (Pass 5)

Goalline---

 

Notes on the first drive:

 

o multiple formations: Pistol ACE, Pistol Offset I, Gun Trips, Gun Doubles, Gun Empty

 

 

o Maybe its easier to get into 'turbo'/hurry by using a TE as FB that way we don't have to sub D.Young in and out for different formations? They were mainly in 12 Personnel w/ 1 RB and 2 TEs. Maybe they should consider using more 2 TEs when Jordan returns? You know Jordan and Davis together now that he proved that he can help you?

 

o The previously useless Fred Davis was on the field for almost every snap of the first series and was solid, even had a key 3rd down conversion in the redzone and was effective in the run game on THE FIRST OPENING SCORING DRIVE OF THE SEASON

 

o Hello diversity in the run game. Not only did we stayed commited to the run but we mixed it up! YES! In the same series we saw: outside zone, inside zone, toss and a run from a spread formation

 

o Mostly easy quick rhythm throws:

(1) RB Hook, (we're allowed to throw to the RB? who would have thunk it)

(2) WR (slot) Slant

(3) Play Action-quick play-action on an intermediate route as opposed to full play-action on a slow developing deep downfield route

(4) 5-7 yard quick outs x2- quick rhythm throw (it helps the Giants inexplicable did us a favor and played off coverage as opposed to man which kills our WRs)

 

 

He looked sharp right? Is that just a random flashback of ability? Or how about as long ago as the Bears game? Charger's game? Parts of the Broncos game? The Viking's game?

 

Its the gameplan/playcalling.

 

Again this isn't a discussion based on rhetoric or clever arguments its about xs and os and you can see it on film. Robert is back physically, he's not as dynamic as he was last year but he's still dynamic an its there on film. Going way back to the Lions game. We have this discussion before, many of the same experts Jaws/Cosell that said he wasn't himself point to the Lions game as his return to physical form.

 

And no disrespect but maybe you really can't see it. Maybe the difference can only been seen when you really look at the games and Griffin's role within the gameplan.

 

But you know what hasn't returned to form? The offense. Defenses are playing our 2-man read-option play-action routes that were always open last year 100% percent better. You can see that on film, time and time again. That is a fact. Even Cooley has pointed this out and Cooley doesn't like to tweak criticize Kyle's offense. DEFENSES ARE PLAYING THE READ OPTION BETTER AND  KYLES COUNTER MEASURES TO THE READ OPTION  ARE NOT WORKING.

 

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion. Griffin to my eye is not a different player then he was last year. Maybe during the 1st 2-3 games Griffin wasn't himself, but after that he's been ready however the defenses have caught up to Kyle's offense. And the adjustment by our offensive staff haven't been able to keep pace.

Kyle getting exposed on offense to me is the biggest thing here...You would think that the Skins would have also looked into ways that other teams will try and limit the read option...so they would prepared...doesnt look like that happen...

[grego]

 Even Cooley has pointed this out and Cooley doesn't like to tweak criticize Kyle's offense. DEFENSES ARE PLAYING THE READ OPTION BETTER AND  KYLES COUNTER MEASURES TO THE READ OPTION  ARE NOT WORKING.

 

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion. Griffin to my eye is not a different player then he was last year. Maybe during the 1st 2-3 games Griffin wasn't himself, but after that he's been ready however the defenses have caught up to Kyle's offense. And the adjustment by our offensive staff haven't been able to keep pace.

 

here's what i'm having a hard time understanding. there are a number of fans and a number of media members who think our offense is fine. add grant paulsen to the list as well. he pulled the same thing mike did a couple of weeks ago which really made me question whether or not he should be back next year. mike said 'well, when you are top 5 or 6 in offense, you are doing something right' after the san fran game. this morning, GP basically said kyle knows what hes doing cuz the skins are #7 in offense and top 10 in yards per play (i think thats the stat he used). 

 

what bothers me is that it seems some of the more intelligent media heads dont realze this team goes entire halves not only not being able to score a TD, but getting shut out altogether. we got shut out the final 3 quarters vs NY. didnt score a point the first 3 quarters vs philly the second time we played them. outside of SD and CHI (to a lesser extent, OAK), our offense stalls. badly. 

 

it makes me want to drive off the road into something large when i hear these people talk about how our offense is being held back by our D. (not that our D is any good)

 

maddening, i say. 

[darrelgreenie]

I think a lot of the football media in this town know far more about journalism and broadcast then football.

Listen to guys like Cooley and Greg Cosell those guys have it down.

[kleese]

I don't discredit what you, or Cooley, or Cosell are saying. I take commentary from those guys much more to heart than I do random sports talk guys. I have no doubt that defenses have adjusted and Kyle has struggled this year to find any sort of groove for RG.

But anyone that can watch RG turn the corner this year and turn the corner last year and say he is the same physically is either blind or lying to themselves. And I also believe his lack of trust in his knee and/or the brace had also consistently affected the way he plants and the confidence he has in scrambling. He is not the same guy in 2013 and I will go to my grave believing that.

Now, has he been physically capable enough to win games if the scheme was better? That is where it gets cloudy and think there is definitely room for debate.

[darrelgreenie]

For me Griffin is smart enough, coachable enough and has more then enough arm talent to build a productive NFL offense around his passing ability even if he couldn't walk.

 

So for me the it doesn't matter if Griffin isn't the running threat he was last year. That's besides the point  even if Griffin was never hurt it wouldn't change a whole lot about how defenses are playing the read-option play action passing concepts.

[darrelgreenie]

Now, has he been physically capable enough to win games if the scheme was better? That is where it gets cloudy and think there is definitely room for debate.

Cloudy for some I guess, clear as Culebra for others.

 

But, I'm growing weary of this discussion brother. I shall say no more. (i think)

[darrelgreenie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT0XEMXpT_M

 

At the end of the day I still take solace in the fact that he's our QB