Have there been ANY positives to the change to a 3-4 defense?

[Trasoul82]

Obviously, I normally don't start threads, but I'm just wondering if anyone can shed a light on the thinking behind this change. 

 

I find it really strange that so many people bring up the $36 Million dollar cap penalty, but very few will mention the Shanahan-imposed $100 Million penalty of having Albert Haynesworth on the sideline. I know Shanahan walked into that situation, but it appeared to me that M. Shanahan made the first 2 seasons all about him being the "new sheriff." I guess he thought he could effect a culture change of some sort... But I digress...

 

 

Was the defensive side of the ball hurt most by the cap penalty, or was it just a change for the sake of change that backfired?

 

[skinfan2k]

Nope none.  It costs more to build and we are still at the bottom of the league after 4 years.   This is one of many reasons why i want MS to leave.  These guys are so hell bent on doing something without thinking about the players strengths

[bedlamVR]

Oh good another troll post ... not an issue for you last year when the D was stepping up big time in the 7 game winning streek ?

 

You remember when we had the 4-3 - I assume you do - we had statistically an impressive unit that could not stop anyone - back in 2004 and 2005 it was good but had litte impact on games because it could not generate turn overs and could not score and when it came down to it could not get those key stops when we needed them ( I am thinking of an Atlanta or TB game and they litterally ran 15 minutes off the clock in the second half of the game over 2 series )  .

 

Right now we are 2nd in the NFL in defensive TDs with 5 with 5 games left to play  - from 2004 to  2009 we had 5 defensive TDs . It generates more Ints, more turn overs in general and this is all with questionable DC in Haslet .. imagine if we got someone who they knew what they were doing like Spanos, Wade Phillips etc.  

 

Also remember back if you can to 2009 and you might remember Philip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Conelius Griffin they were all mainstays in that 4-3 defense that had to be rebuilt as it was .  

You might also remember how for example Fat Al was a non factor for us that season because he was essentially deactivated in the final 4 games  of the season(the sack fest in the Radier game while he was not playing) and disliked the Blatche regime and openly critised it to anyone who would listen .. Shanhan had to try and salvage the mess of that redicoulous contract ... revisionsit fans drive me up the wall ...

 

And as for it being cheaper to build the 4-3 rather than restock the 3-4 - I have seen this mentioned a couple of times and I am thinking really - How do you reckon that ?

 

In the 3-4 we would have to re-sign Orakpo and Riley, ideally move Colefield to DE, Either move Baker to Nose and sign/draft a guy there and maybe look to upgrade the other DE - We would also be looking for another ILB (maybe Rob Jackson) and a SS .

 

In the 4-3 you would be looking at at least one new DE (possibly Orakpo) but would ideally nead a bigger anchor on the opposite end to the rush end ..and you would need some depth in there too .. at DT you could have Colefield but who else (Jenkins?)  ..

 

At LB - errr errr move Riley over to SLB but then you would need to resign him for one and secondly who do you have in mind a MLB and WLB

 

We would still need a SS and too look again at the entire DB depending on the scheme you would like to run ...

 

So just in numbers you probably have the same if not more holes to fill in the 4-3 and then there is the depth issue where past dfrafted and developed players fit your new scheme ... and then you need someone good to run it ...

 

Crazyness ... absolute crazyness

[SWFLSkins]

YEP, exposed Jim Haslett for the fraud that he is as a gameday manager. Bedlam the D has only really been good at stopping the run, the pass has continued to kill this team when it fails to get pressure on the QB. 

[PlayAction]

There have been no positives in the switch to the 3-4 defense.  Shanahan made the switch his first year because he felt that the 3-4 defense could theoretically be more flexible and unpredictable in it's schemes.  Obviously converting to the 3-4 meant that a lot of resources were going to have to be devoted to the defense over several years to get it to perform well (assuming that great coaching was involved).  In year 1, Shanahan did not know that he was going to commit three first round picks and a second round pick for one player on the offense.  In year 2 Shanahan thought he could wash away all of the bad Vinny contracts in the uncapped year.  Instead the league essentially forced him to take the cap hell that we would have had to go through anyway to get rid of the overpriced contracts.  So, IMO the defensive conversion was doomed by the lack of both high level draft picks and free agent contract money from the 36million cap penalty.

 

Many fans felt that converting to the 3-4 would rob the offense from needed upgrades.  Instead, Shanahan robbed the defense to acquire RG3.  But, we all knew the price was really high - - some felt that the QB would solve all problems.  Obviously that hasn't worked out.

 

My beef with Shanahan is that he usually has a subpar defense and he hasn't done some self evaluation to understand why his defenses are usually bad.  Hint - it's him!  I don't think his track record at selecting assistant coaches is very good (e.g., Slowick) yet he requires the DC to use his selections rather than allowing the DC to select his own assistants. 

[IrepDC]

It works well in Madden...?

[Fan since a Fetus]

It's not the switch that is the problem, it is about who is running it. Look at the Browns, they switched this year and are playing quite well. I would love to have Horton as our D Co.

Bob Slowik - Never coached 3-4 lbs, this is what happens when friends are hired. Shan was fired because of this guy

Jacob Burney - as far as I know, he has never coached a 3-4 d - line

Haslett - can't call a game to save his life. 3-4 is supposed to be confusing, ours is the exact opposite.

I could go on about many of our other coaches, Chris Foerester (ugh). I don't necessarily think they are all bad at their jobs, but Shannahan went outside of their comfort zone and asked them to run stuff that isn't exactly familiar to them.

This staff is on Shannahan's head.

[Snagletooth]

We haven't had success with the change.  That doesn't make the 3-4 a worse defense than a 4-3.  I don't agree that it is more expensive either.  I think you can use more tweener type to their full potential in a 3-4 and space eaters on the line. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

The 3-4 isn't he problem.

The coaching and player acquisition is the problem.

Shanahan doesn't do defense. He had a 4-3 in Denver which stunk and got him fired.

Then he brought a couple of the same coaches here, switched scheme, and got 4-3 guys to try and run it.

I love the 3-4.

THIS isn't a 3-4.

THIS is just stupid.

[justice98]

Oh good another troll post ... not an issue for you last year when the D was stepping up big time in the 7 game winning streek ?

 

You remember when we had the 4-3 - I assume you do - we had statistically an impressive unit that could not stop anyone - back in 2004 and 2005 it was good but had litte impact on games because it could not generate turn overs and could not score and when it came down to it could not get those key stops when we needed them ( I am thinking of an Atlanta or TB game and they litterally ran 15 minutes off the clock in the second half of the game over 2 series )  .

 

Right now we are 2nd in the NFL in defensive TDs with 5 with 5 games left to play  - from 2004 to  2009 we had 5 defensive TDs . It generates more Ints, more turn overs in general and this is all with questionable DC in Haslet .. imagine if we got someone who they knew what they were doing like Spanos, Wade Phillips etc.  

 

Also remember back if you can to 2009 and you might remember Philip Daniels, Renaldo Wynn, Conelius Griffin they were all mainstays in that 4-3 defense that had to be rebuilt as it was .  

You might also remember how for example Fat Al was a non factor for us that season because he was essentially deactivated in the final 4 games  of the season(the sack fest in the Radier game while he was not playing) and disliked the Blatche regime and openly critised it to anyone who would listen .. Shanhan had to try and salvage the mess of that redicoulous contract ... revisionsit fans drive me up the wall ...

 

And as for it being cheaper to build the 4-3 rather than restock the 3-4 - I have seen this mentioned a couple of times and I am thinking really - How do you reckon that ?

 

In the 3-4 we would have to re-sign Orakpo and Riley, ideally move Colefield to DE, Either move Baker to Nose and sign/draft a guy there and maybe look to upgrade the other DE - We would also be looking for another ILB (maybe Rob Jackson) and a SS .

 

In the 4-3 you would be looking at at least one new DE (possibly Orakpo) but would ideally nead a bigger anchor on the opposite end to the rush end ..and you would need some depth in there too .. at DT you could have Colefield but who else (Jenkins?)  ..

 

At LB - errr errr move Riley over to SLB but then you would need to resign him for one and secondly who do you have in mind a MLB and WLB

 

We would still need a SS and too look again at the entire DB depending on the scheme you would like to run ...

 

So just in numbers you probably have the same if not more holes to fill in the 4-3 and then there is the depth issue where past dfrafted and developed players fit your new scheme ... and then you need someone good to run it ...

 

Crazyness ... absolute crazyness

 

It's all perspective, those Blache defenses weren't getting turnovers, but you didn't have to score 35 to win either.

 

The impact it had on games was it often kept you actually IN the game.  The 3-4 defenses here give up 100 more yards a game.  So when you talk about not being able to stop anyone, that seems like a null point if that's supposed to make the 3-4 more desirable.

[Fan since a Fetus]

I posted this last year, it was a little longer last year, but here it is again:

It is hard to find information about the kind of systems each position coach or coordinator has run. If anyone has resources regarding this matter, please share them

• Chris Foerster (Offensive Line Coach): Has he ever run a Zone Blocking Scheme? I don’t think so, but there is a good possibility I am wrong. Even if he has, his track record is poor.

Please note that sacks and rushing average do not tell a whole story about whether or not an O-line coach is good. There are other factors such as offensive talent, QB, and receivers. However, sacks and rushing avg are a part of the problem. Here is Foerster’s recent history:

Miami Dolphins Offensive Coordinator
2004

Offensive Rank – 28 (offensive ranking goes solely by points scored)

Baltimore Ravens Offensive Line Coach
2005
Offense - Sacks 42 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.6 YPA
Offensive rank: 25

2006
Offense – Sacks 17 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.4 YPA
Offensive rank: 12

2007
Offense – Sacks 39 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA
Offensive rank: 24

San Francisco 49ers Offensive Line Coach
2008 (took over on week 8)

Offense – Sacks 55 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA
Offensive rank – 22

2009
Offense – Sacks 40 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.3 YPA
Offensive rank - 18

So why am I picking on Foerster? Our offense is o.k. He did well at the end of last year. However, the o-line is abysmal this year outside of option and pistol plays. When we are lining up in regular NFL formations, we are getting our butts kicked. Has Forester developed anyone for the Skins? No. Trent Williams is the only on that could be argued, but he is naturally athletic and aggressive. Everyone else on this line is easily replaceable. His track record is poor. Why did Shanny hire him???

I think we should look elsewhere this offseason for an O-line coach.


• Bob Slowik (Linebackers Coach): Really his name is all I should have to say. Just speaking his name should run chills down your spine. This is the guy that is in charge of getting young talent such as Kerrigan up to speed. Prior to the Skins, has this guy ever coached a 3-4 system? I don’t think so. In the 3-4 the linebackers are very valuable. So why leave them to be coached by a slug? We miss Lou Spanos more than people realize. This guy is currently killing one of our most valuable positions. He is a good friend of Shannahan’s. What scares me is that he is likely to stay on the roster no matter what. He may even move up to defensive coordinator one day. It would be a travesty.

Chicago Bears Defensive Coordinator
1993

Defensive rank: 3rd (defensive ranking goes solely on points scored) This is his best year.

1994
Defensive rank: 10th

1995
Defensive rank: 22nd

1996
Defensive rank: 12th

1997
Defensive rank: 29th

1998

Defensive rank: 23rd

Cleveland Browns Defensive Coordinator

1999
Defensive rank: 29th

********Not sure what he did between 1999-2004*********

Green Bay Packers Defensive Coordinator

2004
Defensive rank: 23rd

Denver Broncos

2005-2006/2007 (Defensive Backs Coach)
Keep in mind here, he coached a veteran Champ Bailey and John Lynch, both are Pro-Bowlers

2005

Defensive Passing Rank: 29th (based on Yards Per Game) Interceptions: 6th (based on ranking)

2006

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 13th

2007 (DB Coach/ Defensive Coordinator)

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 26th

Defensive Rank: 28th

2008 Defensive Coordinator

Defensive Rank: 30th

2009 (not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

Washington Redskins Defensive Backs Coach

2010

Defensive Passing Rank: 31st Interceptions: 22nd

2011

Defensive Passing Rank: 12th Interceptions: 22nd

• Jacob Burney (Defensive Line Coach): I would be o.k. with him if we were running a 4-3 defense. However, we are not, and I am not sure that he has ever run a predominately 3-4 defensive front.

Denver Broncos Defensive Line Coach

2002

Defensive Rank: 15th Sacks: 10th
YPA: 9th (Rushing Avg.)
2003

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th
YPA: 9th

2004

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th
YPA: 9th

2005

Defensive Rank: 3rd Sacks: 29th
YPA: 19th

2006

Defensive Rank: 8th Sacks: 15th
YPA: 18th

2007

Defensive Rank: 28th Sacks: 16th
YPA: 30th

2008
Defensive Rank: 30th Sacks: 26th
YPA: 31st

2009 (Not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

2010
Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 26th
YPA: 25th

2011
Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 10th
YPA: 18th

2012
Defensive Rank: 27th Sacks: 25th
YPA: 18th

• Jim Haslett: This name should be synonymous with Bob Slowik. He sucks!!!!!! I was willing to give him a chance a couple of years ago, but the more I have learned about football, the more I realize his schemes are horrible and he does not know how to run a 4-3 much less a 3-4. He lacks the balls to run the 3-4.

I am going to save myself some time and leave Haslett’s record out of this conversation. Everyone that is a Redskins fan should know it by now. He is horrible. I wanted to give him a shot a couple of years ago, but it was a horrible decision.

In my opinion Shannahan does not know coaches like he thinks he does. I imagine Shannahan grabbed a bunch of guys that he was familiar with and not necessarily ones that were great at their jobs.

To me, Shannahan is a Super Bowl winning Norv Turner. Sounds bad, but true. He is a great offensive coordinator that is not head coaching material. He is the Rex Grossman of head coaches, he thinks he’s great, he thinks he is Brett Favre, but he does not have the arm strength to get it done.

Shannahan sucks at putting together winning staffs, something Joe Gibbs excelled at. Joe Gibbs philosophy was, ‘I hire people smarter than me.’ Shannahan’s philosophy is ‘I am the smartest, and you are all second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. It is not my fault, but yours.’

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Turnovers and defensive touchdowns. I remember being frustrated at times with our 43 in the mid-2000s because we were solid but rarely seemed to make game-changing plays. I don't know enough to know if the 34 is responsible for the big plays on defense, but it has to be considered a positive.