***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[JoeWolf990]

No Wall...SMH.  Should have made the squad over Dame Lillard, IMO.

I think its about right, altho Curry should be in the first team over Harden.

Shaq wasn't a free agent. That was a trade.

cheers, didnt know that. I guess Larry Hughes then.

 

2. Chicago. None. Rodman was a trade and seen as a huge huge gamble at the time. He was self-destructing in San Antonio, and it seemed like he would be out of the league and maybe dead very soon.

Boozer

[RonArtest15]

Personally, I would have put either Wall or Conley above Lillard. 

 

I'm curious as to when the voting was done?  I wonder if the votes were taken either before or after the Rockets series.  I can see some media members getting swept up in hyperbole after Dame's GW shot. 

[Destino]

Should a player be stuck in a terrible situation forever simply because a computer said that's where you are going to be drafted? Do you think Kevin Love should sign a five-year extension with Minnesota?

Everyone forgets that Cleveland was completely capped out when Lebron's free agency came up. They could resign him, but that was it. They had no real assets to trade. They had no cap flexibility. That team was as good as it was going to get.

By the way, I agree with Dan LeBatard: anyone making confident predictions about this series is just posturing.

I think you're reading sarcasm into my post when I didn't intend any. I have no problem with Lebron leaving the Cavs. I meant exactly what I wrote, the old argument of stars needing to stay rooted to a team and winning is dead. It was a bad argument to begin with, one that should have gone with KG and Ray Allen, but Lebron finished it off.

[MattFancy]

I think you're reading sarcasm into my post when I didn't intend any. I have no problem with Lebron leaving the Cavs. I meant exactly what I wrote, the old argument of stars needing to stay rooted to a team and winning is dead. It was a bad argument to begin with, one that should have gone with KG and Ray Allen, but Lebron finished it off.

 

It's funny that people get mad at athletes for something we all do. I wonder how many people stay at their first job their entire career? I'd say probably a very small percentage. I don't understand why we think athletes are different.

 

I don't think we'll see many more guys like Kobe and Duncan that play their whole careers for one team. Free agency pretty much ruined that in all sports. And I don't blame guys for wanting to go to better situations.

[mcsluggo]

its funny you use Kobe as your example, also... the 17 year old that sent out press statements on which teams he would accept before the draft...

 

 

and Tim Duncan, the guy that got drafted into the single best situation of any #1 draft choice (since James Worthy).   What a martyr he was, staying there.... 

 

 

everyone else has to play the cards they are dealt.

[JoeWolf990]

I don't think we'll see many more guys like Kobe and Duncan that play their whole careers for one team. Free agency pretty much ruined that in all sports. And I don't blame guys for wanting to go to better situations.

I disagree. Free agency has been around for nearly 30 years and Duncans and Kobes still happened.

The key is to build great and title contending teams around them and they will never leave. If you just throw some mess together and hope they will stay, they will not. Its that simple.

Shoot, Duncan almost left in 2000 and would have left a few years later if the Spurs hadnt become an annual title contender. He got scared that they were old.

its funny you use Kobe as your example, also... the 17 year old that sent out press statements on which teams he would accept before the draft...

 

 

and Tim Duncan, the guy that got drafted into the single best situation of any #1 draft choice (since James Worthy).   What a martyr he was, staying there.... 

 

 

everyone else has to play the cards they are dealt.

what was wrong with either of these?

[MattFancy]

I disagree. Free agency has been around for nearly 30 years and Duncans and Kobes still happened.

The key is to build great and title contending teams around them and they will never leave. If you just throw some mess together and hope they will stay, they will not. Its that simple.

Shoot, Duncan almost left in 2000 and would have left a few years later if the Spurs hadnt become an annual title contender. He got scared that they were old.

 

 

True, but you just named 2 guys. Of the recent greats, they've all moved around. LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Nash, Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Melo, Malone, Payton and I'm sure I'm missing more. Guys like Kobe, Duncan and Dirk are rare these days. Now I know Wade and Durant could get added to that list, but I can't say I'd be shocked if either of those guys moved on eventually.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't think we'll see many more guys like Kobe and Duncan that play their whole careers for one team. Free agency pretty much ruined that in all sports. And I don't blame guys for wanting to go to better situations.

 

I don't know. It's more likely in the NBA than other sports, because NBA teams can always offer their own players more than anyone else. (That's why Howard leaving was so odd). I don't see Durant or Blake ever leaving their situations - except really really late in their careers possibly.

 

It can happen in baseball too if teams time their contracts correctly.  Ryan Zimmerman will be in DC until 2019 - barring a trade that he would have to approve. He'll be 34 then. He probably won't get a lot of huge long-term offers at that age so I could see him signing some 3 year deal to stay in DC and transition into broadcasting or being the "local legend" or whatever is 39 year old baseball players with $90 million in the bank do these days. That's assuming he can actually play 18 years in the big leagues.

 

It's actually probably more likely in baseball, because I don't think baseball players get hung up on the "chasing a ring" thing.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[JoeWolf990]

True, but you just named 2 guys. Of the recent greats, they've all moved around. LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, Nash, Garnett, Pierce, Allen, Melo, Malone, Payton and I'm sure I'm missing more. Guys like Kobe, Duncan and Dirk are rare these days. Now I know Wade and Durant could get added to that list, but I can't say I'd be shocked if either of those guys moved on eventually.

Well everything is circumstantial.

Malone was ring chasing at the end of his career. Gary Payton got traded out of Seattle to Milwaukee for Ray Allen.

Nash should have stayed a Sun after being behind Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson?

Jordan shouldnt count.

Out of all the names on that list, only Lebron was a free agent in his prime.

The reason why those guys left was not because of money, but because the teams they were on were not close to being champions or they had circumstantial issues.

It's actually probably more likely in baseball, because I don't think baseball players get hung up on the "chasing a ring" thing.

yeah, MLB is about money.

Same with NFL.

Its not that unlikely in the NBA.

Edited June 4, 2014 by JoeWolf990

[Going Commando]

Imagine if Duncan had gone to Orlando to play with Grant Hill. TMac joins them. And both Hill and McGrady stay healthy.

What an absolutely amazing team that would have been. LA and Orlando would have played each other in the Finals five or six straight times. There absolutely would not have been a Lakers threepeat.

[Going Commando]

I posit to you all that the Duncan/Hill/TMac McGrady what might have been is the reason McD5 ended up being the way he was.

[Kosher Ham]

Shaq and Melo were in their prime.

Shaq had a pretty loaded team in Orlando they were close.

Melo as well was/is still kinda in his prime.

[Going Commando]

All-NBA Teams:

 

 

 

 

No Wall...SMH.  Should have made the squad over Dame Lillard, IMO.

Yeah Wall should have been on it. At least on the third team. I think he should have made it over Lillard, Parker, and Dragic. He was the third best PG in the league this year, the best in the East, and he played all 82 games.

I agree with Joe that Curry should have been on the first team. I think he deserved it over both CP3 and Harden. CP3's per game/minute numbers were the best of any guard, but he missed 20 games. It's a little problematic that he's a first teamer because of that. But I don't really know who else you put on the first team with Curry.

Dirk getting left off is the biggest travesty though. He should have made it over Noah, Love, Aldridge, Dwight, Paul George, and Al Jefferson. Duncan probably should have made it too. And if missing a ton of games didn't hold Tony Parker or Chris Paul back, Anthony Davis should have made it too.

And if losing and missing the playoffs didn't hold Kevin Love back, then Carmelo should have made it. These All NBA teams weren't well done.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

It's early so maybe I'm completely off but wasn't Melo traded to the Knicks? That doesn't count

[JoeWolf990]

I posit to you all that the Duncan/Hill/TMac McGrady what might have been is the reason McD5 ended up being the way he was.

this thing never would have happened. This has popped up recently despite it always being only 2 of them that would have gone to Orlando.

McGrady would have went to Chicago or Miami if Duncan went to Orlando. Orlando wanted Duncan and Hill, and McGrady was an afterthought.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah Wall should have been on it. At least on the third team. I think he should have made it over Lillard, Parker, and Dragic. He was the third best PG in the league this year, the best in the East, and he played all 82 games.

 

 

Wall has improved by leaps and bounds since his second year, but the issue he has is never going to go away fully: there are a ton of great point guards in the league, most of whom are slightly older than he is. He probably should have made third team this year. But then again, Dragic, Parker, and Lillard were all fantastic too. It's a league filled with great point guards and average 2 guards.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's early so maybe I'm completely off but wasn't Melo traded to the Knicks? That doesn't count

 

Melo was traded to the Knicks. Shaq was a free agent when he went to LA.

 

This happens all the time: people really have no idea how players actually end up moving around.

 

Anyway, the NBA has always been a league where players move around (except for the Celtics all-timers who live and die in that uniform for the most part). Wilt played on 3 teams and the Globetrotters. Kareem forced his way out of Milwaukee. Walton forced his way out of Portland and then San Diego in the ugliest fashion. Oscar got traded then essentially created free agency. Rick Barry played on 37 teams in 14 leagues, I think. Moses switched leagues and switched teams as much as anyone.

 

The NBA has always - somewhat secretly - been the league for radicals. It's one of the reasons I love it so much. I love baseball players, but I'm convinced that the average MLB player has an IQ of 83 and a fourth-grade reading level. And NFL players are chewed up by the conformity machine by the time they are 19.

 

Seriously, can you even begin to imagine how the NFL talking heads and writers would be dealing with Lance Stephenson? "You CANNOT behave that way in the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE. You need to show RESPECT for the game in the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE." Goodell would have banned him for life already at a press conference where Mark Schlereth cried tears of joy.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Bubble Screen]

The biggest mistake on the all-NBA team was Jefferson on 3rd team. He should have at least been 2nd. Probably first. He was easily the second best center (outside of Cousins) this season.

[Going Commando]

Wall has improved by leaps and bounds since his second year, but the issue he has is never going to go away fully: there are a ton of great point guards in the league, most of whom are slightly older than he is. He probably should have made third team this year. But then again, Dragic, Parker, and Lillard were all fantastic too. It's a league filled with great point guards and average 2 guards.

I'm actually pretty confident Wall will make his share of All NBA teams. That's why I'm not that mad about him getting snubbed this season. It is a league full of great PGs. But Wall does stand out. The issue before was that nobody was actually watching him because the Wizards were so bad. He wasn't on national TV a single time this season except AS weekend. But the Wizards just won a playoff series for the first time in forever. Their brand just took a major step forward out of the gutter and that will help Wall win individual accolades.

Also, the voters don't seem to feel compelled to include undeserving 2 guards because it looks like the teams are 5 PGs and 1 SG if you count Dragic as a PG. I think he is.

The league is all PGs that can score and big forwards that can run or shoot. One of the results of the ascendancy of pick and rolls. There are very very few teams that are actually good that don't have a PG. And PF is even more loaded at the top than PG is. I bet most of the top 20 scorers in the league are PFs or SFs playing up at PF in small lineups like LeBron, Durant, and Melo.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm actually pretty confident Wall will make his share of All NBA teams. That's why I'm not that mad about him getting snubbed this season. It is a league full of great PGs. But Wall does stand out. The issue before was that nobody was actually watching him because the Wizards were so bad. He wasn't on national TV a single time this season except AS weekend. But the Wizards just won a playoff series for the first time in forever. Their brand just took a major step forward out of the gutter and that will help Wall win individual accolades.

Also, the voters don't seem to feel compelled to include undeserving 2 guards because it looks like the teams are 5 PGs and 1 SG if you count Dragic as a PG. I think he is.

The league is all PGs that can score and big forwards that can run or shoot. One of the results of the ascendancy of pick and rolls. There are very very few teams that are actually good that don't have a PG. And PF is even more loaded at the top than PG is. I bet most of the top 20 scorers in the league are PFs or SFs playing up at PF in small lineups like LeBron, Durant, and Melo.

 

His future awards are pretty much tied to the Wizard's future success. The first and second round were the first time since the Gilbert era that people said, "Hey....Washington has a basketball team....and it's not bad." The Gilber era was the first time since the Webber Era that happened. Both eras were 6 weeks long, I think.

 

Of course, next year, Rose and Rondo will probably go 1 and 2 in MVP voting.

[Going Commando]

this thing never would have happened. This has popped up recently despite it always being only 2 of them that would have gone to Orlando.

McGrady would have went to Chicago or Miami if Duncan went to Orlando. Orlando wanted Duncan and Hill, and McGrady was an afterthought.

McGrady was very much set on going to Orlando and he wanted it to be him, Duncan, and Hill. McGrady was very open about it, and he signed with Orlando on the first day of free agency.

1.) He made some pretty ballsy comments about how Orlando would own the East once they got him, Duncan, and Hill.

2.) He wanted to play near home in Florida.

He said he only considered Chicago and Miami out of respect for their organizations. Orlando is the team he wanted.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2479&dat=20000707&id=qVU1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=aiUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=754,2690294

It was up to Duncan. He could have made it happen if he wanted to because the Magic had plenty of assets to do S&Ts plus cap space to sign two max contracts outright. McGrady was willing to take less money to sign in Orlando outright. Duncan said he was really close to picking Orlando, much closer than people realize. All he had to do is sign with Orlando, Orlando makes the S&T for Hill, and then McGrady signs.

Doc Rivers as coach. Duncan, Hill, and McGrady as the foundation. If Grant Hill has better doctors that didn't completely botch his diagnosis, treatment, and recovery, then that team is a dynasty. They'd have won the East pretty much every season for six or seven years straight. There would have been no mid decade mini dynasty for Detroit despite getting Wallace and Billups in that Hill S&T. There would have been no prolonged SA run and we'd be thinking about RC Buford and Greg Poppovich in an entirely different way. Doc Rivers would be considered one of the best coaches ever. And some of the rings that are on Kobe's fingers would be on TMac's instead.

[Going Commando]

It's early so maybe I'm completely off but wasn't Melo traded to the Knicks? That doesn't count

I'm actually not sure what the context of this debate is, I don't have an agenda here: Melo forced Denver to trade him to NY. I don't know in which way that counts.

This is basically what happened: He claimed he'd have signed in NY as a FA. That would have required him to walk away from 30 million dollars like Dwight Howard did. It must have been a credible enough threat even though a lot of people were skeptical he would actually do it, because Denver did what he wanted. He basically pigeon holed them into only dealing with NY, nobody else thought they could get Melo to sign an extension.

The consensus about Melo at the time was that he had his cake and got to eat it too. He didn't have to leave the 30 million on the table and he ended up on the team he wanted.

But the joke is really on him and NY. Denver was able to get a pretty good return package out of NY for Melo even though the Knicks were bidding against themselves. The Knicks are dumb. If they had played their cards right and waited to sign Melo as a UFA, they'd have been able to keep that crucial set of role players around him like Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, and a boatload of draft picks. Denver got a lot of the guys that got them to the playoffs a couple times in the deal. Billups came with Melo in the trade, and that was also a terrible mistake. Billups hated that he was included in the deal because he wanted to stay in Denver more than anything. New York ended up using their amnesty on him. Boy how they wish they had saved that for Amar'e's monstrosity of a contract.

Again the Knicks are dumb. You know they actually draft well? And yet what do they do? Waste those picks in awful trades and let their homegrown talent walk away. I'd argue they have the worst management in the NBA.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Here are two instructive lessons to carry forward out of the Carmelo debacle:

1.) "Always trade coins for paper" is bunk. If you gut your team of assets to trade for a superstar, then you can screw yourself just like the Knicks did. They had ZERO assets to go out and get good stuff after Melo. They even completed some absolute Hail Mary's in reviving J.R. Smith's career and digging Jeremy Lin up out of nowhere--luck you certainly can't count on.

Let every team that's thinking about trading for Kevin Love take that lesson to heart. Also Kevin Love needs to accept that, forcing a trade or S&T is counterproductive if he wants to win with his new team.

2.) Always value your own home grown, up and coming stars the most. Value them over chasing some other team's disgruntled star. The grass is not always greener. If NY had just kept David Lee instead of chasing after Amar'e (a signing that was absolutely seen as high risk at the time because of the dude's knees), they'd have been soooooo much better off.

This abomination of a Knicks team is what you get when you throw prudence to the wind. "Screw David Lee, we can get Amar'e! Microfracture surgery schmicrofracture surgery, his knees will be fine! Max him out! Oh we'll figure out how to put a team around Melo later, we just need to get him! Who needs draft picks any more? We'll be picking late every year anyway!"

Edited June 5, 2014 by stevemcqueen1

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Here's a fun Duncan "what if." What if Boston had won that lottery instead of San Antonio. Instead of going to San Antonio with David Robinson, Sean Elliot, and Greg Popovich waiting for him, he goes to Boston with Rick Pitino, Kenny Anderson, and Antoine Walker. Does Pitino use him properly? Does Pitino still flame out, because he's just not suited to the NBA? When he flames out, does Duncan leave? Does playing with Antoine Walker and dealing with the Boston press turn Duncan into a surly alcoholic?

 

So many questions.....

Edited June 5, 2014 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1.) "Always trade coins for paper" is bunk. If you gut your team of assets to trade for a superstar, then you can screw yourself just like the Knicks did. They had ZERO assets to go out and get good stuff after Melo. They even completed some absolute Hail Mary's in reviving J.R. Smith's career and digging Jeremy Lin up out of nowhere--luck you certainly can't count on.

Let every team that's thinking about trading for Kevin Love take that lesson to heart. Also Kevin Love needs to accept that, forcing a trade or S&T is counterproductive if he wants to win with his new team.

 

 

The lesson I take away is never go for one superstar unless you have a way to get another.

 

We can debate all day long about whether what Houston is doing is right and whether the pieces will ever fit. But Morey made damn sure that he had a puncher's chance at getting another worthy max player once he got Harden. Having one superstar and no options makes you the Knicks. Having two superstars and no options makes you OKC.

 

Again, say what you will about OKC, but I'd rather be them for the next five years than the Knicks. There's always a chance that some 2nd rounder blooms into a credible third option or some MLE vet has a renaissance season and that puts you over the top. The Knicks need miracles just to be competitive in the East despite having one of the best pure scorers ever.

 

(You also need to make sure those pieces fit. Everyone knew Boston's big three would fit from the beginning. Miami's big three were a little shaky at first, but Riley counted on Lebron and Bosh's versatility along with everyone's bball IQ. It still took them about 18 months to really figure out their roles. Melo and Amare don't really make sense together even if Amare is in his prime and healthy).

[mcsluggo]

the lesson i take...is that there are very few actual superstars.  Kevin love is not one of them.   

 

you can blow up things to get Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, in their primes.  You kill yourself blowing things up to get a second tier star (a bosh, a tony parker, a kevin love, a carmelo, an amare)

 

 

right now, lebron, and <probably> durant are the ONLY super stars worth blowing thing up to secure.  ANYBODY else is too expensive for the expense, unless they come to you gift wrapped.