***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Predicto]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Nobody has a chance of dethroning the Warriors anyway except maybe the Timberwolves if they can add a little bit more. Probably need to upgrade the coach too, not sure about Thibs winning a ring.

 

Not true, because injuries and other disruptions are a fact of life in the NBA.   Beating the Warriors in a 7 game series when they are at full strength may be unlikely, but beating the Warriors if Steph gets hobbled again, or KD goes down, or Draymond gets suspended, or Klay gets busted with weed on a road trip to Indianapolis... that definitely is possible. 

 

You want to be the team that is ready to pounce if that opening presents itself.  It's stupid to plan to wait for a dynasty to end.  

[PeterMP]

2 minutes ago, Predicto said:

 

Not true, because injuries and other disruptions are a fact of life in the NBA.   Beating the Warriors in a 7 game series when they are at full strength may be unlikely, but beating the Warriors if Steph gets hobbled again, or KD goes down, or Draymond gets suspended, or Klay gets busted with weed on a road trip to Indianapolis... that definitely is possiIble. 

 

You want to be the team that is ready to pounce if that opening presents itself.  It's stupid to plan to wait for a dynasty to end.  

 

I can see if the T-wolves have some asset(s) that have value and are likely to hold their value taking the approach of waiting.  Same with the Celtics.  I can't fault the Celtics for not trading the rights to the Lakers (or Kings if that's what it turns into) pick.  That team is really in their first year together and they have young talent and Hayward should be back next year.  Given their situation, playing the waiting game makes sense to me.

 

They aren't so much waiting for the dynasty to end.  More just waiting until their players are more mature and the team complete.  The Sixers are even further out.  It makes no sense for them to trade away their rights to the Lakers pick or the Kings pick next year (which ever they end up with) to make a push now.

 

A team like the Cavs should push everything in.  Yes, you need some luck to beat the Warriors, but there is no reason to believe in the next few years you are going to have a better chance.  (Which is why I'd trade the Nets pick).  You've built the team to win a championship.  You are right on the edge.  You have to give it everything.

 

Houston is probably in a similar position as the Cavs.  Paul might not come back next year, and Harden and Paul are never going to be better than they are now (especially Paul).  To my knowledge, they don't have anything that they can trade that they don't need now that would bring something of value back, but if they did, they should make the trade.

 

Spurs are harder (though again, I don't think they have much of value to trade).  How healthy is Leonard going to be for the playoffs?  If you have good reason to believe he's not going to be 100%, I'd probably wait.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Predicto said:

 

Not true, because injuries and other disruptions are a fact of life in the NBA.   Beating the Warriors in a 7 game series when they are at full strength may be unlikely, but beating the Warriors if Steph gets hobbled again, or KD goes down, or Draymond gets suspended, or Klay gets busted with weed on a road trip to Indianapolis... that definitely is possible. 

 

You want to be the team that is ready to pounce if that opening presents itself.  It's stupid to plan to wait for a dynasty to end.  

 

The Warriors could lose any one of their big four and still comfortably lead the league in wins and win another ring.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

at this point, you are being strange with regards to Kyrie.

 

LKB is pursuasive and clever.  He paints me as irrational and grinding a personal axe with Kyrie rather than engaging my claims directly.  It's a witty appeal to self evidence for his claims, and done to persuade the room rather than me, but it's actually a weak argument for his own position.  His other end around is to paint me as an irrational waffler.  Because I post a lot, he can cherry pick support for that claim and convince people its true by repeating it even though if we were to go through all of our posts honestly, I'd probably end up at the lower end of the scale for waffling on views.  The truth is that I am not nearly as sensitive to Q-Ratings as he is.

 

That's really what this Kyrie argument is about.  Kyrie's Q-Rating is really high right now and I don't care that it is.  It doesn't change my analysis of him and this frustrates LKB.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

I can see if the T-wolves have some asset(s) that have value and are likely to hold their value taking the approach of waiting.

the Timberwolves traded their assets away.

 

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

That's really what this Kyrie argument is about.  Kyrie's Q-Rating is really high right now and I don't care that it is. 

Man, Kyrie is a great player. It has nothing to do with LKB. I have seen you take shots at him for years.

 

If a player is "limited" like Kyrie, then we need more "limited players" on the Wizards.

[Renegade7]

On 1/8/2018 at 4:24 PM, PeterMP said:

 

It isn't just the Warriors.  There is no real reason to believe any time soon the Wizards are jumping over the Cavs or the Celtics in their own conference and that's ignoring whoever will come out of the West if the Warriors do slip.

 

I can't condone this, and part of that is because of how inconsistent we are this year and the fact we've made it to second round three of the last four seasons.  I mean, we took Celtics to 7 games last year and just beat them on Christmas, lost by only 3 in Golden State this year, and the turn around and lost two games at home to the Cavs (we typically can play them close or even win the last two years). 

 

I've seen Noel's name come up, and I've been up and down on it because of his limited playing time the last couple years, but I agree we need a young talent at center.  That's not going to matter if this team can't show up more consistently, and no rebuild will be successful as long as Ernie is GM.  And I agree with Predicto, I would be livid as a fan if I found out my franchise was basically killing time until they felt the Warriors were more beatable.  Who's to say another dynasty won't pop up?

Edited January 10, 2018 by Renegade7

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Man, Kyrie is a great player. It has nothing to do with LKB. I have seen you take shots at him for years.

 

If a player is "limited" like Kyrie, then we need more "limited players" on the Wizards.

 

If pointing out that he's limited is taking shots at him, then so be it.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

I can't condone this, and part of that is because of how inconsistent we are this year and the fact we've made it to second round three of the last four seasons.  I mean, we took Celtics to 7 games last year and just beat them on Christmas, lost by only 3 in Golden State this year, and the turn around and lost two games at home to the Cavs (we typically can play them close or even win the last two years). 

 

I've seen Noel's name come up, and I've been up and down on it because of his limited playing time the last couple years, but I agree we need a young talent at center.  That's not going to matter if this team can't show up more consistently, and no rebuild will be successful as long as Ernie is GM.  And I agree with Predicto, I would be livid as a fan if I found out my franchise was basically killing time until they felt the Warriors were more beatable.  Who's to say another dynasty won't pop up?

 

Every team has good games and almost games.  Every team has games where the fans leave thinking, hey if we played like that more often we'd be a better team.  It is part of the NBA.  People have good days and people have bad days.   You can't look at individual NBA regular season games like that.

 

The Wizards are not better than the Celtics, weren't better than them last year, aren't better than the Cavs, aren't close to being as good as the Warriors, and aren't as good as 2 or 3 other teams out West.  They match up poorly against Milwaukee so I'm not sure they would beat them in a playoff series, and I'm not sure if they would beat Miami either.

 

Unless things go incredibly well for them (e.g. the Cavs, the Celtics, and the Warriors all have significant injuries at the right time), they are not going to win the championship this year, and unless they get at least another All Star level player some how (which they don't really have the means to get as they don't have the cap space to sign such a player and aren't likely going to have the ability to draft such a player), they aren't going to be in any better shape going forward.

 

Enjoy a good era of Wizards basketball without deluding yourself that they are likely to win a championship.

 

While I certainly don't want to defend Ernie, to defend this current construct of a team while claiming he can't carry out a successful rebuild doesn't make any sense.  Ernie gave you this current team as part of a re-build.  Either this team is seriously flawed, or Ernie can successfully carry out a rebuild.

 

You can't have it both ways.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

36 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Every team has good games and almost games.  Every team has games where the fans leave thinking, hey if we played like that more often we'd be a better team.  It is part of the NBA.  People have good days and people have bad days.   You can't look at individual NBA regular season games like that.

 

The Wizards are not better than the Celtics, weren't better than them last year, aren't better than the Cavs, aren't close to being as good as the Warriors, and aren't as good as 2 or 3 other teams out West.  They match up poorly against Milwaukee so I'm not sure they would beat them in a playoff series, and I'm not sure if they would beat Miami either.

 

Unless things go incredibly well for them (e.g. the Cavs, the Celtics, and the Warriors all have significant injuries at the right time), they are not going to win the championship this year, and unless they get at least another All Star level player some how (which they don't really have the means to get as they don't have the cap space to sign such a player and aren't likely going to have the ability to draft such a player), they aren't going to be in any better shape going forward.

 

Enjoy a good era of Wizards basketball without deluding yourself that they are likely to win a championship.

 

While I certainly don't want to defend Ernie, to defend this current construct of a team while claiming he can't carry out a successful rebuild doesn't make any sense.  Ernie gave you this current team as part of a re-build.  Either this team is seriously flawed, or Ernie can successfully carry out a rebuild.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

It's not delusional to believe they can get a ring anytime soon, and your example of good days and bad days apply to Ernie as well.  

 

Arenas came here on a coin flip, and Ernie enabled the culture that allowed Gungate to happen, that culture still exists today.  He also traded a #5 pick for Randy Foye and Brad Miller then made a cratered roster full of one-year contracts to get Durant and couldn't even get a phone conversation with him.  You look at the way Pat Riley and the way he has top-downed the Miami Heat since the Heatles, its no comparison.  

 

At this point its not about "can he do a rebuild", its "can he stop shooting himself in the foot hoobling our efforts to win a championship?"  I don't know how I feel about whether a rebuild counts if the team has no chance to win a championship.  Having said that, he did build a team that could pull it off.  I'ma wait until March or Playoff time to see if Wall can get back to the 23ppg he was doing last year, and this team got away with a lot last year without a bench (which is much improved now).  

 

If Ernie can hold onto a first round pick and hit on a center, ya'll need to watch out, and I'll give him credit for it.  

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

It's not delusional to believe they can get a ring anytime soon, and your example of good days and bad days apply to Ernie as well.  

 

Arenas came here on a coin flip, and Ernie enabled the culture that allowed Gungate to happen, that culture still exists today.  He also traded a #5 pick for Randy Foye and Brad Miller then made a cratered roster full of one-year contracts to get Durant and couldn't even get a phone conversation with him.  You look at the way Pat Riley and the way he has top-downed the Miami Heat since the Heatles, its no comparison.  

 

At this point its not about "can he do a rebuild", its "can he stop shooting himself in the foot hoobling our efforts to win a championship?"  I don't know how I feel about whether a rebuild counts if the team has no chance to win a championship.  Having said that, he did build a team that could pull it off.  I'ma wait until March or Playoff time to see if Wall can get back to the 23ppg he was doing last year, and this team got away with a lot last year without a bench (which is much improved now).  

 

If Ernie can hold onto a first round pick and hit on a center, ya'll need to watch out, and I'll give him credit for it.  

Look, I'm not defending Ernie, but you can't claim this team can contend for a championship and that he can't rebuild.  The two arguments are contradictory to one another.  You said as long Ernie is there any rebuild will fail.  Well, either this is a failed rebuild or that statement is false.

 

Riley's gotten lucky.  He had no idea what Whiteside would become or he would have brought him in sooner (imagine the 2013-14 Heat with Whiteside).  He didn't know what Josh Richardson was going to become or he would have taken him before the 40th pick in the draft.  Everybody gets lucky sometimes.  It isn't like that Riley doesn't have a long list of draft pick flops (especially 2nd rounders).

 

Hitting on a center for the Wizards at this point time will be pure luck.  Nothing more nothing less.  The most you can do is optimize your chances of getting lucky.  There's no way they can put together the assets/resources to get somebody that there is a real belief will be a good center.

 

And the Heat aren't competing for a championship either (really unless they too get very lucky) and from here, they are going to down pretty quickly (unless Riley gets lucky again, though I suspect first he'll retire and leave (like LA and NY)).  Though Richardson does look the real deal and will probably keep them from bottoming out.  Dragic and Whiteside are clearly sliding down and nobody is just taking those contracts.

 

It also helped in the way the Heat broke up in that they didn't age out so they didn't get stuck with any real bad contracts.  They very much broke up in the primes of some of their bigger players (well should have been Bosh's prime still).  If he would have gotten stuck with a contract for an aging Bosh, etc, they would be in a different position today.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Look, I'm not defending Ernie, but you can't claim this team can contend for a championship and that he can't rebuild.  The two arguments are contradictory to one another.  You said as long Ernie is there any rebuild will fail.  Well, either this is a failed rebuild or that statement is false.

 

Riley's gotten lucky.  He had no idea what Whiteside would become or he would have brought him in sooner (imagine the 2013-14 Heat with Whiteside).  He didn't know what Josh Richardson was going to become or he would have taken him before the 40th pick in the draft.  Everybody gets lucky sometimes.  It isn't like that Riley doesn't have a long list of draft pick flops.

 

Hitting on a center for the Wizards at this point time will be pure luck.  Nothing more nothing less.  The most you can do is optimize your chances of getting lucky.  There's no way they can put together the assets/resources to get somebody that there is a real belief will be a good center.

What?  I asked if a rebuild counts if they can contend and I just said they could, you're the one saying we have no shoot at all.  

 

Ernie does one step forward, two steps back too much and we could have somebody in his position that demands more from this franchise and does less boneheaded moves.  There is luck involved, but Riley runs a much tighter ship then Ernie does and you can see it in so many different aspects of the organization as a whole an especially on the court.  I agree that with 3 max deals and the resources tied up in center, I'm not optimistic on us being able to address that outside a successful draft pick or a trade were we get the short stick on in order to open up cap space.

 

As I see all that, we just lost to the Utah Jazz without instruments in DC.  Winning record against teams with winning records, losing record against teams with losing records.  They make themselves impossible to defend as a fan.

[PeterMP]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

What?  I asked if a rebuild counts if they can contend and I just said they could, you're the one saying we have no shoot at all.  

 

I thought I've been clear.  IMO they most likely failed.  I think they should have torn it down 2 years ago.  Though I don't see how you do that well now so now I would probably let it play out.

 

I didn't say they had no shot.  I said they'd have to get very lucky.  If they had no shot, they should just tear it down now no matter what.

 

You said:  "no rebuild will be successful as long as Ernie is GM"

 

If you believe that statement, then you should be agreeing with me about the state of the Wizards.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

If you believe that statement, then you should be agreeing with me about the state of the Wizards.

After tonight, I honestly don't know anymore and trying to stay optimistic.  I've absolutely been waffling on that question, can you blame me?  

 

"Enjoy a good era of Wizards basketball without deluding yourself that they are likely to win a championship" sounds way less optimistic then I do, and saying we need major injuries to multiple teams you might as well be saying its impossible. I did see that comment about jumping ship before we maxed Beal and Otto.  That would've been a good time to do it, but I wouldn't of agreed with doing that even at the time and not counting hindsight (confident my post history supports that stance).  

 

I wouldn't let Ernie do another rebuild if this one fails, I don't know any Wizards fan in their right mind that would.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Clippers finally beat the Warriors. Curry was out so it doesn’t count lol. 

[PeterMP]

11 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

After tonight, I honestly don't know anymore and trying to stay optimistic.  I've absolutely been waffling on that question, can you blame me?  

 

"Enjoy a good era of Wizards basketball without deluding yourself that they are likely to win a championship" sounds way less optimistic then I do, and saying we need major injuries to multiple teams you might as well be saying its impossible. I did see that comment about jumping ship before we maxed Beal and Otto.  That would've been a good time to do it, but I wouldn't of agreed with doing that even at the time and not counting hindsight (confident my post history supports that stance).  

 

I wouldn't let Ernie do another rebuild if this one fails, I don't know any Wizards fan in their right mind that would.

 

The Heat signed Whiteside initially in the middle of a season, and then it took another month or so until he started getting regular minutes and filling up the stat sheet.  Adding a Whiteside level talent to the Wizards now would be a game changer.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think Whiteside is a dinosaur. He's a center who does not pass out of double teams and does not shoot jumpers.

 

He's an extremely talented dinosaur, but a dinosaur none-the-less.

 

Also, the Warriors don't seem so terrifying at the moment. Imagine a Seven-game series where Curry is out and Draymond is one technical away from a suspension.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

17 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

That's really what this Kyrie argument is about.  Kyrie's Q-Rating is really high right now and I don't care that it is.  It doesn't change my analysis of him and this frustrates LKB.

 

I'm not frustrated. I find it amusing. I've been married to a narrative before so I get it. (I think my most egregious version of this was still ****ing about the Portis trade when he was running for 6 million yards on a playoff team).

 

You want to marry John Wall and have six of his babies, and Kyrie is out there getting all your man's adulation. It's rough, man. It's rough.

 

If this board exists in 15 or 20 years, you are going to be so pissed about Hall of Fame inductions.

[PeterMP]

40 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think Whiteside is a dinosaur. He's a center who does not pass out of double teams and does not shoot jumpers.

 

He's an extremely talented dinosaur, but a dinosaur none-the-less.

 

Also, the Warriors don't seem so terrifying at the moment. Imagine a Seven-game series where Curry is out and Draymond is one technical away from a suspension.

 

Well, he's aging quickly and that's an issue, but he's still shooting a very efficient 55.3% (which is his Miami career low), is a very effective roll man in a pick and roll, and is still a legitimate rim defender and rebounder.  You don't have to post him as a significant part of your offense.  He can set picks, dive to the basket on other people's drives, etc.

 

(Again, all his numbers are down from where they were other years and he's been on a downward trajectory since his first full season with Miami, but he's still solid.) 

 

He'd certainly be an upgrade over what the Wizards are running out there to play C and what he was when he first broke out in Miami would be a huge up grade.

 

There is always going to be room in the NBA for somebody that can finish at a high percentage around the basket and in pick and rolls, defend the rim, and rebound.  Those people are going to be secondary to people that can do those things and shoot, but those people are always going to have value.  A healthy active Mozgov gave GS fits in the finals (yes GS won, but he still give them as much trouble as anybody other than Lebron) and Whiteside at his best was better than Mozgov.

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Well, he's aging quickly and that's an issue, but he's still shooting a very efficient 55.3% (which is his Miami career low), is a very effective roll man in a pick and roll, and is still a legitimate rim defender and rebounder.  You don't have to post him as a significant part of your offense.  He can set picks, dive to the basket on other people's drives, etc.

 

(Again, all his numbers are down from where they were other years and he's been on a downward trajectory since his first full season with Miami, but he's still solid.) 

 

 

 

His numbers are down, because his minutes are down. They are trying to play more like Houston, and he really doesn't fit into that.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

His numbers are down, because his minutes are down. They are trying to play more like Houston, and he really doesn't fit into that.

 

His percentage numbers are down too, which account for the amount he's playing, and they were down last year as compared to the year before, etc.

 

His FG% and eFG% at the rim and from 3-10 feet have fallen 3 straight years.  He doesn't finish at the rim as well as he used to.  That's not a function of how they are playing as a team.

 

He's a big guy whose game depends on his hyper-athleticism and as he's gotten older and had some injuries that hyper-athleticism is leaving him and that's affecting basic things like his ability to finish at the rim, and on defense, it is going to affect his ability to defend the rim and get blocks (which was a huge part of his game at his peak).

 

How much of them playing differently is because he's not the force he used to be (on offense or defense) and they had to do something new?

 

(And considering he's making $24 million this year, $25 million the next, and has a player option for $27 the year after that that's going to be an issue for Miami.)

Edited January 11, 2018 by PeterMP

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

You want to marry John Wall and have six of his babies, and Kyrie is out there getting all your man's adulation. It's rough, man. It's rough.

 

Very mature.  YOU are the one whose got a narrative in his head that's blinding you.  This is about Q Rating.  Irving's Q-Rating is high right now and you guys are incapable of hearing criticism of him.

 

But I seem to remember a certain Finals series that the Cavs ended up winning where, going into it, everyone in this thread had written Kyrie off except me.  I was the one who actually defended him, pointing out that he was a great scorer and would be a big factor for the Cavs this go around and that he was good for a 40 point game.  I'm guessing you don't remember that.  Or all of the times I praised the LeBron--Irving pairing and thought that he could be an even better second star for LeBron than Wade was.  You're convinced that I irrationally hate Kyrie Irving because I can't handle him being famous at the expense of John Wall, and you spam that stupid **** every time I mention him but the truth is, and I mean this, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Whatever, enjoy your circle jerk.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

2 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I think Whiteside is a dinosaur. He's a center who does not pass out of double teams and does not shoot jumpers.

 

He's an extremely talented dinosaur, but a dinosaur none-the-less.

 

Also, the Warriors don't seem so terrifying at the moment. Imagine a Seven-game series where Curry is out and Draymond is one technical away from a suspension.

Curry slipped in practice. Didn’t need an x ray or anything. They held him out of the game just incase. He is healthy. 

I agree with you Steve, that Kyrie is overrated. He gets shine over other players like Jimmy Butler. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Curry slipped in practice. Didn’t need an x ray or anything. They held him out of the game just incase. He is healthy. 

I agree with you Steve, that Kyrie is overrated. He gets shine over other players like Jimmy Butler. 

 

Talking just point guards though, Kyrie is top 5 right now.  Same with Wall.  Where you want to rank them both, argue which stats matter most, etc. is personal opinion.  

 

If it were me ranking the top five, I'd probably go 1] Curry 2] Westbrook 3] Paul  4] Irving 5] Wall 

 

This is no Wall hate, between him, Irving, Paul I think the 3 through 5 can arguably shift and change throughout the season where those three move up and down in rank.  If you look at current PER, Kryie rounds out the top 5 and Wall is #8.  But, I don't look at just one stat. 

 

Both are incredible players that anyone who is a fan of another team other than the Warriors, Wiz, Celtics, Thunder, Rockets would gladly welcome aboard.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[Warhead36]

Irving has been better than Wall this year, but in terms of play style and overall value added I'd take Wall.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Irving has been better than Wall this year, but in terms of play style and overall value added I'd take Wall.

 

Walls FT% is what bothers me the most when compared to Kyrie.  When the game is close down the wire, I want/expect my PG to shoot better than 70% at the line.  Both are great and better than the other at different things.  

 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Dont Taze Me Bro