What Can The Redskins Do Specifically To "Protect" RG3?

[rudc1]

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm seeing 2 common elements in all this RGKnee talk:

1. How do we protect RG3 from this type of thing happening again? / OLine questions

2. Do the Read-Option / Designed QB run plays have to be reduced to protect him?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the Haloti Ngata hit after a scramble on a pass attempt on either 2nd or 3rd down? He ran out of the pocket and cut back to mid-field to pick up an extra 3 yards before the hit. The damage didn't come on a designed run play. It was honestly just poor decision making. He cut back into midfield and decided to dive instead of slide.

People are making an awful lot of fuss about how how the redskins need to protect their franchise but I feel like after the Rams/Bengals/Falcons game where every fan throughout the league started saying he won't last through the season, he gets hit on a non-option play and there is this collective "I told you so" about RG3's health. Could have happened to anybody's QB who decided to not slide in front of Haloti Ngata.

But scrambling quarterbacks scramble. When there is nothing open down field or they get pressure they pick up yards with their feet. It's become part of the game now. But once the QB leaves the protection of the pocket, which is bound to happen from time to time, there is not much his team can do to protect him. He needs to protect himself by not risking it all for 3 extra yards. I get it was the final drive in regulation and the game depended on it but that hit still had far reaching consequences for our season and perhaps some of next season.

I don't think the Redskins can do much more to protect him, and the read-option packages have gotta stay because they are completely awesome. But RG3's 2 major injuries this year in the falcons and ravens game were both completely due to his own "fearlessness". He needs to learn that 3 extra yards is NOT worth it in the big picture.

[WheresRickySanders83]

How To Protect RG3:

1) Continue to upgrade the OL

2) Preach to him the importance of self-awareness and self-preservation

His designed runs, based on the last half of the season, are limited anyway.

There's really nothing else that can be done.

[Skinsinparadise]

More then anything else I would like to see Griffin play with less reckless abandon.

I noticed in college and it was evident his rookie season that he approaches the game with a lot of running bravado more then smarts. One thing I noticed about Cam that I think people miss is his ability to avoid contact. People think Cam's size helps him avoid injuries but I think its Cam awareness as a runner. Russell Wilson has that same quality, I don't ever recall seeing Russell ever get blasted by a big hit. He knows when and how to get down and avoid contact.

It a skill that I first noticed with Marvin Harrison. Me and my buddy would marvel at how Harrison would make a catch and get down right away before contact or gain run after the catch and still get down before contact.

Imo Griffin needs to cultivate this awareness/skill.

Yeah I stated the same earlier on this thread. It's really my main point, too. RG III is a smart guy but doesn't play smart when it comes to his runs -- he's not a fullback but plays like he is. I hope this injury knocks it out of him where he starts playing smart. According to Shanny, RG III hurt himself in the sack prior to the bad snap play. Part of the charm of the read option is if its done well, it mitigates pressure in the pocket -- with the read option he is mostly scrambling up the edge in space which the DE abandoned where its easy to get out of bounds to avoid contact. the big problem IMO are those scrambles, lets say its 3 and 7 and he runs for 5 yards, knows he needs another two yards to make the first down and like a running back will run right into contact to get the extra 2 yards. He needs to stop that and clearly while Shanny might have stressed this to him, he obviously didn't stress it enough. Hopefully both RG III and Shanny learned a valuable lesson.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

...and the number of times he carries it is dictated by the defense once the play is called.

Exactly. I imagine if they do keep him on a pitch count, that would just need to be an additional thing that they track while Kyle is calling plays. So, the zone read might become "off limits" much earlier in some games than in others.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd be satisfied with 5-6 times a game, but the read-option proponents are not likely to be because some of that average will include a few scrambles.

I think both RG III and Shanny mishandled the mindset of his runs and most of which took place during scrambles as opposed to the option, and its not rocket science to pinpoint how. It's like having a kid who is reckless when he crosses the street. Is the solution to tell them, look I rarely want you crossing the street from now on or teach them how to cross the street. And like in this situation its not hard to teach a kid how to cross a street -- its mostly a mindset -- you don't recklessly dart by fast moving cars but watch and pay attention and play it safe. No one is talking about how Russell Wilson who runs the read option is an accident waiting to happen because he doesn't mishandle it. RG III believes he's superman and can stop bullets in his teeth. Hopefully he's learned he can't stop bullets and hopefully Shanny too who I don't absolve.

[Oldfan]

I think both RG III and Shanny mishandled the mindset of his runs and most of which took place during scrambles as opposed to the option, and its not rocket science to pinpoint how. It's like having a kid who is reckless when he crosses the street. Is the solution to tell them, look I rarely want you crossing the street from now on or teach them how to cross the street. And like in this situation its not hard to teach a kid how to cross a street -- its mostly a mindset -- you don't recklessly dart by fast moving cars but watch and pay attention and play it safe. No one is talking about how Russell Wilson who runs the read option is an accident waiting to happen because he doesn't mishandle it. RG III believes he's superman and can stop bullets in his teeth. Hopefully he's learned he can't stop bullets and hopefully Shanny too who I don't absolve.

I just checked: Wilson ran 10 times against the Skins, but only 84 times in the other 16 games. That's a 5.25 average and some of those were scrambles.

[TSO]

I think both RG III and Shanny mishandled the mindset of his runs and most of which took place during scrambles as opposed to the option, and its not rocket science to pinpoint how. It's like having a kid who is reckless when he crosses the street. Is the solution to tell them, look I rarely want you crossing the street from now on or teach them how to cross the street. And like in this situation its not hard to teach a kid how to cross a street -- its mostly a mindset -- you don't recklessly dart by fast moving cars but watch and pay attention and play it safe. No one is talking about how Russell Wilson who runs the read option is an accident waiting to happen because he doesn't mishandle it. RG III believes he's superman and can stop bullets in his teeth. Hopefully he's learned he can't stop bullets and hopefully Shanny too who I don't absolve.

I'd agree with your statement pre-bye week, but after that, it was clear RG3 was running the read option entirely different. He was taking it only when a huge space was vacated by the Dlineman crashing and there was no Safety or Linebacker to plug the hole fast enough. He almost always ran out of bounds or slid. It was rare to see anyone get a clean tackle on him. Now, in the playoff game he looked too slow at times and wasn't able to get out of bounds fast enough which led him to get tackled, but that was a rare sight after the bye week.

I think they've already "learned their lesson" in regards to the read option out of the pistol. I don't think anything needs to change there. The only thing that needs to change is Robert's willingness to put his body on the line towards the end of games (Panthers, Ravens) as well as his willingness to insist he stays in the game when he shouldn't. We're all forgetting that against Atlanta Robert almost managed to put himself back in the game after his concussion, lol. Mike noticed he clearly wasn't right and insisted he get checked.

But, let's be honest. In another era of football Robert is a hero and Mike Shanahan is just another coach here. These guys are old souls, and that's a missed point by so many.

---------- Post added January-11th-2013 at 09:54 AM ----------

I just checked: Wilson ran 10 times against the Skins, but only 84 times in the other 16 games. That's a 5.25 average and some of those were scrambles.

This is heavily skewed by the fact that Pete Carroll didn't copy our offense until mid-season.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

So the logic involved is:

"I believe running plays get the QB hurt more.

Let me devise a number that reflects how much more often I think those plays get them hurt more.

Therefore based on this number, it is only logical that the QB should run less."

There's no actual evidence involved, it's just an a priori belief that it is more logical that running QBs get hurt more often (and that the zone read is a dangerous play in and of itself), but there is no (or not enough) empirical evidence to support it. While it may be true, there is nowhere near enough evidence to take it as an article of faith.

[Oldfan]

...This is heavily skewed by the fact that Pete Carroll didn't copy our offense until mid-season.

7.25 in weeks 8-16.

---------- Post added January-11th-2013 at 12:25 PM ----------

So the logic involved is:

"I believe running plays get the QB hurt more.

Yes, that's my position as a well-informed fan for more than half a century. Are you challenging that premise? Are you claiming it's a false premise because I haven't presented statistics to back up my claim in this internet forum debate?

[DarkLink]

I wonder since he got hurt and needed surgery, I feel he will be less aggressive running. Not much being scared, I feel that his running will only be used on important drives that will define the game.

[Skinsinparadise]

I just checked: Wilson ran 10 times against the Skins, but only 84 times in the other 16 games. That's a 5.25 average and some of those were scrambles.

I haven't watched Seattle much but read that they picked up the read option offense in the last third of the season, be curious if the numbers though didn't bear that out. Him running 10 times in the biggest game of the year to me indicates its something they intend to do more than sparingly. you watched that game, didn't Wilson look more cautious with his runs to you?

[TSO]

7.25 in weeks 8-16.

Exactly, almost a 50% increase and I bet it's more if you start from like week 11. I forgot, honestly, when exactly they started copying us more.

---------- Post added January-11th-2013 at 11:19 AM ----------

I haven't watched Seattle much but read that they picked up the read option offense in the last third of the season, be curious if the numbers though didn't bear that out. Him running 10 times in the biggest game of the year to me indicates its something they intend to do more than sparingly. you watched that game, didn't Wilson look more cautious with his runs to you?

Not really, Wilson got tackled and hit hard quite a few times, actually. I recall Madeiu getting a vicious hit on him at one point.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Yes, that's my position as a well-informed fan for more than half a century. Are you challenging that premise? Are you claiming it's a false premise because I haven't presented statistics to back up my claim in this internet forum debate?

Yes, pretty much. While it intuitively makes sense that running QBs get hurt more, the rarity of the type that you mention, combined with this intuitiveness, makes the instances of a running QB getting hurt stand out more. To many, Brady or Rivers tearing their ACL or Aikman struggling with concussions is just "part of the game", while McNair being banged up or RGIII tearing his ACL owes directly to their playstyle. However, until there is more evidence to suggest that "running QBs hurt more" as opposed to conjecture, it's reasonable to assume that it is simply conjecture.

[NoCalMike]

When RGIII runs the read option and keeps the ball, it is because the DE has been smoked out and is trying to go after the running back, leaving RGIII a clear lane to run for a lot of yards.

When RGIII is under center and a play breaks down, and RGIII has to scramble, there is no expectation or anticipation of where the players on defense will be.

The Read Option is mostly a CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.

Scrambling on a broken play, is CHAOS.

RGIII's injuries have come when scrambling on broken plays, not on the read options. Furthermore, other than the hits resulting in injuries, his biggest "OMG NO" hits have come when he is in the pocket.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd agree with your statement pre-bye week, but after that, it was clear RG3 was running the read option entirely different. He was taking it only when a huge space was vacated by the Dlineman crashing and there was no Safety or Linebacker to plug the hole fast enough. He almost always ran out of bounds or slid. It was rare to see anyone get a clean tackle on him. Now, in the playoff game he looked too slow at times and wasn't able to get out of bounds fast enough which led him to get tackled, but that was a rare sight after the bye week.

I think they've already "learned their lesson" in regards to the read option out of the pistol. I don't think anything needs to change there. The only thing that needs to change is Robert's willingness to put his body on the line towards the end of games (Panthers, Ravens) as well as his willingness to insist he stays in the game when he shouldn't. We're all forgetting that against Atlanta Robert almost managed to put himself back in the game after his concussion, lol. Mike noticed he clearly wasn't right and insisted he get checked.

If you reread my post and the others I made you'll see that nothing you are saying contradicts a single thing I said. I said keep the read option, those runs weren't really that dangerous and protected him from pocket pressure but his unscripted scrambles have been dangerous.

But, let's be honest. In another era of football Robert is a hero and Mike Shanahan is just another coach here. These guys are old souls, and that's a missed point by so many.

Love RG 3 from the winter of 2011 on, so you won't find a bigger fan. Hero yes but not a smart one in this context. Recall reading an article weeks ago, i believe it was a Seattle writer, who said Russell Wilson is a better Qb than RG III because everything being equal he's smarter in terms of protecting himself from injury thus you are more likely going to have him at full strength and he's less likely to miss games. At this moment, I'd agree until RG III proves otherwise.

As for Mike Shanahan, I think he played his cards poorly. He kept a clearly ineffective RG III in the game which might have cost them the game and lost his best player all in one fell swoop. While I understand the logic behind him doing what he did, I thought it was a bad decision during the game and it clearly proved to be bad when it ended. Coaches get paid to make smart decisions, and they aren't always going to get it right, but boy did he get this one wrong. Though that is a different subject and I know there is a thread on it -- but since you mentioned Shanny, I gave you my 2 cents. And i am actually in Shanny's corner more often than not even during the bad previous years.

[TSO]

If you reread my post and the others I made you'll see that nothing you are saying contradicts a single thing I said. I said keep the read option, those runs weren't really that dangerous and protected him from pocket pressure but his unscripted scrambles have been dangerous.

Hmm... I was responding to this particular statement:

I think both RG III and Shanny mishandled the mindset of his runs and most of which took place during scrambles as opposed to the option, and its not rocket science to pinpoint how.

I didn't read anything else you've posted, so I just assumed you were lumping in the read option runs as well, though to a lesser extent. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I could see what you're saying better now coupled with your other posts on the topic. That being said, I'd still exclude the read option runs from any statement stating anything was "mishandled" and you didn't there. It's a slight difference and you may feel Robert took some unnecessary shots on those type of runs here and there, but I don't at all, not after the bye week. I remember him running out of bounds and/or sliding almost every time.

But, again, I get that you're agreeing on that for the most part, so it's not something to really get into.

[Phat Hog]

Get rid of Polumbust!

[rudc1]

When RGIII runs the read option and keeps the ball, it is because the DE has been smoked out and is trying to go after the running back, leaving RGIII a clear lane to run for a lot of yards.

When RGIII is under center and a play breaks down, and RGIII has to scramble, there is no expectation or anticipation of where the players on defense will be.

The Read Option is mostly a CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.

Scrambling on a broken play, is CHAOS.

RGIII's injuries have come when scrambling on broken plays, not on the read options. Furthermore, other than the hits resulting in injuries, his biggest "OMG NO" hits have come when he is in the pocket.

yes yes yes yes and yes

and in the "chaos" there is little the skins can do to protect him. its up to him to learn how to safely manage those types of plays. they don't always need to result in first downs.

[TSO]

You know, what's funny in this thread here is how lost in the whole debate is the argument that the read option kept defense's in a reactionary role and, thus, saved Robert from having to deal with Dlinemen teeing off by a significant amount.

So, in all actuality, it can be easily argued that the read option did a lot to PROTECT RG3 and not harm him.

[Skinsinparadise]

Hmm... I was responding to this particular statement: That being said, I'd still exclude the read option runs from any statement stating anything was "mishandled" and you didn't there. It's a slight difference and you may feel Robert took some unnecessary shots on those type of runs here and there, but I don't at all, not after the bye week. I remember him running out of bounds and/or sliding almost every time.

When I talk about the scrambled runs "as opposed to the option" runs it means I indeed excluded the read option runs from my criticism. Its cool I guess I have to communicate in a more clear fashion.

[Tay]

I think we should keep the read option and use it like we have been using it towards the end up the year (sparingly). RG3 was mostly injured this year on scramble plays. I mentioned it in another thread, but I strongly believe that RG3 will become more protected once he gets a better understanding of what the Defenses are doing. Once he starts to get the ball out quicker (reducing sacks and the need to scramble) he will be fine. It's part of his maturation process.

[TSO]

When I talk about the scrambled runs "as opposed to the option" runs it means I indeed excluded the read option runs from my criticism. Its cool I guess I have to communicate in a more clear fashion.

lol, it's ok... I could've read it better as well.

[Oldfan]

Yes, pretty much. While it intuitively makes sense that running QBs get hurt more, the rarity of the type that you mention, combined with this intuitiveness, makes the instances of a running QB getting hurt stand out more. To many, Brady or Rivers tearing their ACL or Aikman struggling with concussions is just "part of the game", while McNair being banged up or RGIII tearing his ACL owes directly to their playstyle. However, until there is more evidence to suggest that "running QBs hurt more" as opposed to conjecture, it's reasonable to assume that it is simply conjecture.

In the NFL, the conventional wisdom for decades has been that running QBs would not last long because 1) the defenders are bigger, faster and hit harder than in the college game and 2) the 16 game season + playoffs is far more risk exposure than in the college, and 3) the QB position has too much value to take the risk. I'll concede that conventional wisdom could be wrong because there has never been a study on it to my knowledge.

So, if you want to call it "simply conjecture" I won't object. However, if your position is that we should ignore conventional wisdom, then why? If your position is that the QB is not more at risk running the football, then where is your study to back up that position? That would be "simply conjecture" also.

The conventional wisdom could be mistaken, but it makes sense to me. And, if we assume that running is more dangerous to QBs, obviously less running is safer.

[ThomasRoane]

Start Cousins and only play RGIII when ahead by five TDs.

LOL Good one. And I think it might be what Lovero and Czabe would prefer. Let the kid play. Yes he's going to get hurt again. But the goal is to win a Super Bowl right? The worst thing that could happen would be to kill RG III's competitive spirit. And the next worst thing would be having the Coaching staff coach scared. Worried that everyone will be mad at them if they call a play that gets him hurt. I think Shanahan learned a lot about Robert. He's learned that he will push himself beyond what is smart. And next time Shanny would probably give him the hook sooner.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

So, if you want to call it "simply conjecture" I won't object. However, if your position is that we should ignore conventional wisdom, then why? If your position is that the QB is not more at risk running the football, then where is your study to back up that position? That would be "simply conjecture" also.

Fair enough. But that would mean the default position on the issue would be neutral. In that case, we already know how effective QB running plays are in our offense. In addition, they greatly increased the effectiveness of QBs such as Vick, Young, and even middling QBs such as Tebow. If there isn't enough compelling evidence to say that they definitively put the QB more at risk, then why scrap them?