Chalk Talk Discussion Topic: What's the issue with our defense?

[MartinC]

Considering we turned the ball over FIVE times I think the defense played well yesterday. Unfortunately, the secondary had a major brain fart and one play over-shadowed everything. Sigh.

I think its certainly true that those turnovers were a huge part in us losing the game but for all that with less than 2 minutes to go we were up by 3 and the Giants had about 80 yards to go. The defence had played solid football in the second half and been opportunistic with a couple of takeaways which arguably kept us in the game. They were in a position to put the game away though - or at worst hold them to a FG and we go to OT. What you just CANT do in that situation is allow someone to take the top off your defense, that would be unacceptable at any level.

I think (but don't know) that the blown coverage was on Williams but we have had too many coverage breakdowns and players put in bad match ups in coverage to absolve the coaching staff of blame IMO.

[KDawg]

I think (but don't know) that the blown coverage was on Williams but we have had too many coverage breakdowns and players put in bad match ups in coverage to absolve the coaching staff of blame IMO.

This is the crux of it. That breakdown, on an island, isn't such a big deal as far as coaching goes. Players make mistakes. But when mistakes compound, at some point coaching has to be called into question.

[dahibachi]

Our talent is lacking. I've been saying that. I know LL56 will disagree there, but it's plain as day. Our best safety currently is Reed Doughty. And it's not close.

DeAngelo Hall is mediocre at best in coverage. His best utilization is to be used as a playmaker. Think Charles Woodson. He's not Woodson, but he's a talented player. Woodson is much better from a coverage standpoint, but I think Hall can blitz effectively and make plays extremely effectively.

Josh Wilson is a decent enough cover guy, but even he looks lost out there sometimes this year. You can almost see that the coverage unit has no confidence in each other.

Rob Jackson is our best cover outside backer, I will give him that much. He gets to his responsibility and he has pretty good hands. Good instincts as well. But he's really only effective as a flat defender. I wouldn't look for him to be a world beater in the hook/curl zone.

It's scary.

That said, as a coach, your job is to tell the deep defender that nothing is to get behind them. I'm not sure what Williams was doing, but he looked like he froze like a deer in headlights and Cruz ran right by him. That kind of thing has happened entirely too often this year for coaching not to be called into question.

I agree. Good coaches can minimize a teams weakness with good coaching and good schemes. So far I've been questioning the schemes that Haslett has employed. He uses zone to extensively and every week, when we face the teams best receiver, we allow clean releases off the line of scrimmage. If you can't cover them, then at least press them and jam them at the line to disrupt the route. Make that receiver not be where the QB expects him to be. As for the 77 yard pass to Cruz. I actually have a different theory. I think he was trying to be a ball hawk, and guessed (very wrongly) that Cruz was going to stop and run in. By the time he realized Cruz was going over the top, it was too late. I'm pretty sure in these situations, the coaches usually tell their players to keep everything in front of them. And Williams didn't do that... because I believe he wanted to be a hero.

[Mahons21]

Trying to read that right dg so I don't misunderstand.

Are you suggesting if a coach dials up the right play, and the players fail to execute, that he's absolved of any blame for it going wrong? I mean forget the fact he supposedly teaches them fundamental technique and prepares them mentally to be in the right positions. He called the right play so he's done his part?

Your right. If Polumbus misses a block in pass protection, we should blame Kyle, Morris makes the wrong read on a stretch, again Kyle. RG3 makes the wrong read throws a pick, again Kyle. Forget the fact that Kyle called the right play that put the players in a position to succeed, he didn't teach them the fundamental techniques and prepare them mentally....

/sarcasm

What a load of bull. I mean come on, when do you hold players accountable. When is a player being out of position on the play that was called his fault?

Are we going to blame Madieu Williams past DC's who haven't been able to teach/prepare him? When is Madieu supposed to be held accountable for his sub par play that has been present throughout his career.

Furthermore, if you're going to try and place blame on coaches on such a micro level, it would be the secondary coach who should receive that blame, not the DC.

Players need to be held accountable as do coaches. If a coach calls the wrong play and gets burned, he should be held accountable, if a player completely botches the play that was called, then they should be held accountable.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Nobody's not holding players accountable Mahons. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion in my asking dg to clarify about a coaches role.

The point was it's not all one facet or the other. Players need to accept their failings when they screw up. Coaches need to accept there's in both the teaching of those players if their failing consistently fundamentally, and in game-planning.

Hail.

[Mahons21]

Nobody's not holding players accountable Mahons. Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion in my asking dg to clarify about a coaches role.

The point was it's not all one facet or the other. Players need to accept their failings when they screw up. Coaches need to accept there's in both the teaching of those players if their failing consistently fundamentally, and in game-planning.

Hail.

You know what type of players consistently fail fundamentally? One's that lack talent. You know how much talent we have in our secondary? Very little. I don't know what you expect Haslett to do outside of playing S himself, to put Madieu in a better position. Madieu new the down, distance, and time left on the game, yet as a safety he let someone get behind him, that can't happen.

[KDawg]

When is a player being out of position on the play that was called his fault?

Every time they make a mistake.

Are we going to blame Madieu Williams past DC's who haven't been able to teach/prepare him?

Yes. We signed him thinking he could help us. So I blame Haslett as well.

When is Madieu supposed to be held accountable for his sub par play that has been present throughout his career.

After every play he screws up.

Furthermore, if you're going to try and place blame on coaches on such a micro level, it would be the secondary coach who should receive that blame, not the DC.

Morris deserves a lion's share of the blame, too. Great point. Very true.

Players need to be held accountable as do coaches.

Yes. Agreed 100%.

If a coach calls the wrong play and gets burned, he should be held accountable, if a player completely botches the play that was called, then they should be held accountable.

Being a coach is a lot different than being a player. You are responsible for all actions that occur on the field. Coordinators are responsible for bad calls. Coordinators are also responsible for their position coaches. And position coaches are responsible for teaching their players techniques and recognition. That's why some amazing players turn out to be horrendous coaches. They can't teach technique. Repetition breeds confidence and excellence. It also gets you to know your personnel. Did Williams have a penchant for doing that in those situations in practice? How about in his past places of employment? Was there a reason to not want him out there in that particular situation where perhaps a lesser skilled player who was more responsibility oriented would have prospered?

We don't know those things, but the coaches need to. And hopefully they do and they absolutely made the right call. Your greater point isn't lost on me. We have no idea what goes on to prep. the game or what was said prior to the Giants possession to win the game.

[Mahons21]

Every time they make a mistake.

They aren't right now.

Yes. We signed him thinking he could help us. So I blame Haslett as well.

1 - There wasn't a ton of resources being used on our secondary

2 - He was intended to compete for a job, and didn't win the competition, outside circumstances dictated that he would play.

3 - With the amount of resources we were using, there wasn't exactly a player pool filled with talent.

4 - Have their been any other safeties would could have acquired at that cost and done better?

After every play he screws up.

I agree yet I read around ES, and people like NLC are coming up with theories that, the G-Men wanted a double covered cruz and wanted to throw to him, thus the fault lies on Haslett and his tendencies. I couldn't disagree more.

Morris deserves a lion's share of the blame, too. Great point. Very true.

He sure does. Funny how the few people who touted him as our future DC for years to come, have since dropped off his band-wagon less than halfway through the season.

Being a coach is a lot different than being a player. You are responsible for all actions that occur on the field. Coordinators are responsible for bad calls. Coordinators are also responsible for their position coaches. And position coaches are responsible for teaching their players techniques and recognition. That's why some amazing players turn out to be horrendous coaches. They can't teach technique. Repetition breeds confidence and excellence. It also gets you to know your personnel. Did Williams have a penchant for doing that in those situations in practice? How about in his past places of employment? Was there a reason to not want him out there in that particular situation where perhaps a lesser skilled player who was more responsibility oriented would have prospered?

If you can't call a double team without your safety getting beat that badly, you can't be evaluated as a DC at all. You simply don't have the talent to run any scheme effectively at this level. Furthermore, if you're put in a position where you have to constantly rotate guys because player x can play this coverage and player y can play that coverage, your defense becomes far more predictable. Teams will have a good idea, based on personnel alone, what type of coverage you'll be playing.

What was asked of Madieu on that play was something 99% of starting safeties in the NFL need to to be able to do, it was nothing exotic, and nothing tricky. Madieu being the bad player that he is made a mistake.

We don't know those things, but the coaches need to. And hopefully they do and they absolutely made the right call. Your greater point isn't lost on me. We have no idea what goes on to prep. the game or what was side prior to the Giants possession to win the game.

[greenspandan]

the issue with our defense is that it sucks.

[GaryGreenMonk]

We are 32nd in the league defending the pass. The defense is dropping games for us. It literally can't get any worse from the secondary here.

I don't think you ever make coaching changes mid-season, but I do think it's time to try some **** out.

If we get Cedric Griffin and Merriweather back from injury next week..

I propose moving Hall to FS, Merriweather at SS, Wilson and Griffin at corner with Crawford in the slot.

I think Williams has proven that he is a liability and can't play. He should only stay on the team as an alternate due to injury and should be cut in the offseason.

[darrelgreenie]

Coaching isn't just play calls, dg. It's making sure your defenders execute the gameplan. It's making sure technique is good enough to get the job done.

Of course, of course. But to be clear this wasn't about gameplan this was about one specific play call which you blamed on 'piss poor coaching' but what was wrong with the play call other then the execution?

I never refer to 2-man as doubling. a deep safety can't concentrate on one

receiver, he has to be the deepest man on the field.

Well to be clear I said people refer to 2-man as doubling the deep receivers not 'doubling' in general.

Let no one behind you. Williams let someone behind him. That's definitely on

him, and given the poor execution from the entire coverage unit for the first

part of this season, that lends itself to be a coaching issue as well. Lack of

talent and poor coaching is killing us.

Seems like you're just disagreeing to disagree. I've always maintained the overall problem is both coaching and execution, even in this thread as recently as a few posts ago:

Quick thoughts and trends from the Gints game

o why oh why didn't Wilson re-route or otherwise impede Cruz?

o what the hell was Maddie Williams thinking? Keep your slow self deep and get into your back pedal when you see Cruz screaming upfield with no re-route

o Rob Jackson interception highlights something I've noticed all season. The LBs don't have a good feel of where and how to get a good spot in their individual zone coverage assignments to effect the play. When they're playing Cover 3 w/ the CBs off the LBs are supposed to buzz the underneath throws like Rob did. They're not expected to pick off the pass but disrupt the timing of the routes that break in front of the off CBs. Also noticed (not this game but the Rams) noticed the LBs (Riley) got to his spot drop but didn't look for work or got to his spot and chased a receiver outside of his zone responsibility. Long story short, I think Slowick needs to get his LB unit to pull their weight in coverage. But then again, Slowick normally doesn't coach LBs, so maybe he doesn't know either?

o the sit back in zone and make the defense earn their way down field and look to make an opportunistic play vs the ultra aggresive blitz more then they can block defense strategy is working imo

o Doughty scared the bejesus out of me when he limped off the field, w/ Gomes banged up who else could have come into the game at S? was Pugh up this game? Me thinks we should raid a practice squad and bring a guy in

---------- Post added October-21st-2012 at 10:23 PM ----------

I already know this is crazy, but there is no way in hell Cruz gets open on Robert playing press and run against that lil smurf

#wouldbellichickdoit?

But, we're talking about one playcall where you admit just above that the fault was on Williams.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

But dg, and Mahons for that matter, when personal mistakes like Williams made are happening on a consistent basis to numerous players; when do you start to look at what their being taught and who's teaching them alongside the players own failings?

Hail.

[konga2145]

They aren't right now.

1 - There wasn't a ton of resources being used on our secondary

2 - He was intended to compete for a job, and didn't win the competition, outside circumstances dictated that he would play.

3 - With the amount of resources we were using, there wasn't exactly a player pool filled with talent.

4 - Have their been any other safeties would could have acquired at that cost and done better?

I agree yet I read around ES, and people like NLC are coming up with theories that, the G-Men wanted a double covered cruz and wanted to throw to him, thus the fault lies on Haslett and his tendencies. I couldn't disagree more.

He sure does. Funny how the few people who touted him as our future DC for years to come, have since dropped off his band-wagon less than halfway through the season.

If you can't call a double team without your safety getting beat that badly, you can't be evaluated as a DC at all. You simply don't have the talent to run any scheme effectively at this level. Furthermore, if you're put in a position where you have to constantly rotate guys because player x can play this coverage and player y can play that coverage, your defense becomes far more predictable. Teams will have a good idea, based on personnel alone, what type of coverage you'll be playing.

What was asked of Madieu on that play was something 99% of starting safeties in the NFL need to to be able to do, it was nothing exotic, and nothing tricky. Madieu being the bad player that he is made a mistake.

We don't know those things, but the coaches need to. And hopefully they do and they absolutely made the right call. Your greater point isn't lost on me. We have no idea what goes on to prep. the game or what was side prior to the Giants possession to win the game.

Everyone trying to put blame somewhere. Did it ever occur to you that Cruz might just have been faster. All I could see was Cruz's but. He left our secondary in the dirt. This was defenitly a case of G-men having better personal and us having bad cover guys. Nobody's fault, not even defense . Can't blame a player for not being able to run fast enough, lol.

[KDawg]

They aren't right now.

Sure they are. Saying they aren't is a very general statement. I see a ton of people in this thread saying our secondary has piss poor talent

1 - There wasn't a ton of resources being used on our secondary

2 - He was intended to compete for a job, and didn't win the competition, outside circumstances dictated that he would play.

3 - With the amount of resources we were using, there wasn't exactly a player pool filled with talent.

4 - Have their been any other safeties would could have acquired at that cost and done better?

You ask a lot of these types of questions, and when they're answered you seem to ignore them, or you don't deem the answer worthy of your point. Don't really feel like going too deep into this thought if you're going to do that

I agree yet I read around ES, and people like NLC are coming up with theories that, the G-Men wanted a double covered cruz and wanted to throw to him, thus the fault lies on Haslett and his tendencies. I couldn't disagree more.

Well, LL56 and NLC both do httr24/7. They are very heavy in the Haslett blows bandwagon. As am I. Difference is, as much as I think he blows, I also see the talent deficiencies.

He sure does. Funny how the few people who touted him as our future DC for years to come, have since dropped off his band-wagon less than halfway through the season.

I can only speak for myself. But I had him tabbed as the future DC because that's what I thought the 'Skins were doing. Not because its who I necessarily wanted.

If you can't call a double team without your safety getting beat that badly, you can't be evaluated as a DC at all.

Strongly disagree here. You put the guy in that can play that responsibility. Tendencies be damned in that situation. If you don't have anyone that can do that you screwed up building your team. Keeping a guy in front of you isn't rocket science or a highly skilled job. Williams blew it. Bad. But the staff needs to be held accountable as well.

Teams will have a good idea, based on personnel alone, what type of coverage you'll be playing.

Do you think, in that situation, being predictable in coverage is that large of an issue? I don't.

What was asked of Madieu on that play was something 99% of starting safeties in the NFL need to to be able to do, it was nothing exotic, and nothing tricky. Madieu being the bad player that he is made a mistake.

It's something 100% of safeties, not just starting, need to be able to do.

[Mahons21]

Madieu didn't back pedal nor did he turn his hips early enough, he was concentrated on the underneath stuff and let one get behind him. No way Cruz is so fast that he can cover 40 yards in the time Madieu covers like 27

[Warpath11]

The

I agree yet I read around ES, and people like NLC are coming up with theories that, the G-Men wanted a double covered cruz and wanted to throw to him, thus the fault lies on Haslett and his tendencies. I couldn't disagree more.

I've read this on twitter and elsewhere but I don't know how important that is. So the Giants knew that in a clutch situation their best WR would be double covered?? I'm sure most teams would have covered Cruz with two guys in that situation. Our DBs failed to execute the play called and the blame falls on everyone from the players involved to the coaches teaching them the proper technique and game situations etc...

Had Cruz been redirected or Williams in proper position we would not be talking about this today...Eli would still say they gave us a look we were expecting but we did not execute on the play end of story...

[KDawg]

Of course, of course. But to be clear this wasn't about gameplan this was about one specific play call which you blamed on 'piss poor coaching' but what was wrong with the play call other then the execution?

I don't think I said the playcall sucked? I don't know what it was. So keeping that in mind, I HAVE to assume it was 2-under. You just admitted with saying "of course, of course" that there is more to coaching than calling plays, but you can't see that the lack of execution is both on the player and the coaching staff? It's not a one play sample size, if it were this would be squarely on Williams. It's been happening all year. That's alsoon Morris and Haslett. All three of them screwed the pooch.

Well to be clear I said people refer to 2-man as doubling the deep receivers not 'doubling' in general.

I misread. My apologies. You did say that.

Seems like you're just disagreeing to disagree.

This is a disappointing comment from you. That's not what I'm doing in the least.

But, we're talking about one playcall where you admit just above that the fault was on Williams.

No. We're talking about one play. Not just the call.

---------- Post added October-22nd-2012 at 10:17 AM ----------

Everyone trying to put blame somewhere. Did it ever occur to you that Cruz might just have been faster. All I could see was Cruz's but. He left our secondary in the dirt. This was defenitly a case of G-men having better personal and us having bad cover guys. Nobody's fault, not even defense . Can't blame a player for not being able to run fast enough, lol.

But wouldn't you agree that perhaps the players and coaches should put themselves in the best position to succeed? I'd say Cruz is faster than Wilson and Williams, for sure. But, Williams froze when Cruz ran at him. It wasn't just a speed thing. It was a lack of recognition.

[darrelgreenie]

Trying to read that right dg so I don't misunderstand.

Are you suggesting if a coach dials up the right play, and the players fail to execute, that he's absolved of any blame for it going wrong? I mean forget the fact he supposedly teaches them fundamental technique and prepares them mentally to be in the right positions. He called the right play so he's done his part?

Hail.

I trying to understand your question so I don't misunderstand. But I don't see how broad generalizations apply to the specific situation I was reponding to in my post?

Not sure how you can say the bomb to Cruz was on piss poor coaching? Without knowing the playcall we can't assume it wasn't 2-man which plenty of people consider/refer to 2-man as "doubling" the deep receivers. From the look of the play and the situation it sure looks like it was supposed to be 2-man.

Maybe these questions will help me understand your question better:

Are you suggesting if a coach dials up the right play, and a couple players fail to execute or one player completely blows their main assignment its not their fault?

I mean lets forget the fact that most starting S in the NFL understand the down and distance and personnel groupings and players to watch for not to mention that most can stay in deep coverage when its their main/only responsibility in a particular coverage.

A player blew the coverage on the proper situational playcall but its not their fault, its the coaches fault?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Maybe post 262 up the page adds more clarification to the point/ question.

Hail.

[chow184]

Everyone trying to put blame somewhere. Did it ever occur to you that Cruz might just have been faster. All I could see was Cruz's but. He left our secondary in the dirt. This was defenitly a case of G-men having better personal and us having bad cover guys. Nobody's fault, not even defense . Can't blame a player for not being able to run fast enough, lol.

madieu williams responsibility was to stay deep, when cruz passed him Williams was moving forward when he should have been moving backward to get better depth.

[konga2145]

Let me start off by saying that I believe our defense played okay yesterday. Not great, but good enough to win a football game. But I still see a ton of holes.

First off, the Redskins are running a 3-4 defense in the mold of Dick LeBeau, the father of the zone blitz. A basic zone blitz example would be something called a "fire zone". A "fire zone" is a zone blitz with three underneath defenders and three deep defenders leaving five rushers. Generally, three of those rushers will be defensive linemen (although they could drop into coverage). Basically, the fire zone is great because you're sending five guys from all over the field. It could be anyone.

LeBeau runs his 3-4 almost like a 4-3 over or 4-3 under at times. It's a 1-gap system. And when he brings pressure, stunts and blitzes, you get a very similar look to a 4-3.

So, what's the issue with Haslett's version of the 3-4? Well, for one the loss of Lou Spanos to UCLA didn't help.

But in my opinion it has less to do with pressure on the quarterback and more to do with problems getting to coverage responsbilities and poor play calls from the coordinator.

Here's why:

With zone blitzes (or any blitz including man variations) you are bringing people from all over the field. That means every player has to be assignment oriented. In man, it leaves players on an island, one on one with a receiver. In zone, it means some players have to come from a difficult presnap alignment to their zone drop spots (I say that for simplicities sake. Most team will probably match-up zone if they zone blitz).

I think the most glaring issue with Haslett's defense has been the lack of coverage on the backend, and not so much the rush. From the snap of the ball, it seems like there's an open receiver. I don't care how good your actual pressure package is, if you can't cover on the back end for at least a couple seconds you're completely DOA.

My assessment is, that despite my obvious disdain for Coach Haslett, I think we could be more successful with more talent in the coverage department. Where I fault Haslett, though, is the timing of some of his calls. It's difficult to cover the area 5-10 yards deep out by the numbers when you're bringing pressure and expecting a backer to get out to that spot. But I think our coverage personnel is either extremely raw in some cases, or not quite good enough.

I like the way he's utilizing Hall as a blitzer, but I'm not a fan of the use of other personnel. Hall excels playing up and sticking his nose in the play. I think he'd be a great roving safety for us, in the mold of Charles Woodson. But in order to use him in that role, we need to find a corner that can play as well as Hall does. And Hall gets dogged on quite often by this fan base, but I have yet to see a replacement. (Now, that's not to say that a Crawford or Minnifield aren't that guy, but they aren't quite there yet).

What are your thoughts?

Sad as it seems, we should know we need at least 30 points to win any game. We score 30 (and we had plenty chances to do so) then we wouldn't be bashing our, which we knew before the game, bad secondary.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think I said the playcall sucked?

here....

That last play, it looks like Haslett called the right play, it's the play of Wilson and Williams not executing.

Which is back on coaching just as much as it is on them. Piss poor execution and piss poor coaching. And I'm not sure calling a "double" team is ever a good move. It leaves another guy on an island. I'd rather play 2-man under or 3-man under.

This is a disappointing comment from you. That's not what I'm doing in the least.

Considering that we agree that the overall problems on defense are due to both coaching and execution I don't see where the argument is? About arguing just because see below:

No. We're talking about one play. Not just the call.

Anyhow, cheers.

I think this unit has a chance to improve because many of the mistakes they make are coaching dependednt and therefore fixable. I also think there is chance for improve because the talent level of some of the players making mistakes on defense are easily replaceable. Heck, I think they could bring in a young S and coach them up and match the current level of play and at least provide some growth and athleticism. In my dreamland they raid some practice squads (Blake Gideon, DeShaun Shead, Damon Cromartie-Smith) guys and coach them up with an eye to start, imho this should have happened awhile ago when Meriweather first went down. But I digress....

[KDawg]

here....

I didn't say anything about the call there. I said piss poor execution and piss poor coaching. And I stand by that. When speaking on double teams, I meant a legit double team. Not a 2 under or 3 under look.

About arguing just because see below:

Semantics. But; a playcall is different than a play. The call is simply what you're doing. The play is the call and the execution of it. But I digress, we're getting hung up on verbiage.

I think this unit has a chance to improve because many of the mistakes they make are coaching dependednt and therefore fixable.

I just wish I had faith in this staff to fix it... But I agree.

[NoVaSkins21]

IMO, the talent particularly in the secondary, is bad and the coaching is worse. The personnel will be something that they will have to live with for the rest of the season. The coaching, however, can be addressed a lot soon if Shanahan wants to. Personally, I think if Shanahan wants to fire Haslett during the bye week that would fine with me. If not, then they'll have to wait until the offseason. IMO, and I'll say it over and over again, the problems started when they went from the 4-3 to the 3-4.

[KDawg]

IMO, the talent particularly in the secondary, is bad and the coaching is worse. The personnel will be something that they will have to live with for the rest of the season. The coaching, however, can be addressed a lot soon if Shanahan wants to. Personally, I think if Shanahan wants to fire Haslett during the bye week that would fine with me. If not, then they'll have to wait until the offseason. IMO, and I'll say it over and over again, the problems started when they went from the 4-3 to the 3-4.

I'm not hung up on the frontage we play. 3-4, 4-3, whatever. Both have seen teams succeed under proper tutelage. I'm concerned with the tutelage.