***2012-13 NBA THREAD!!! New Season/New Thread - LET'S GO!!!!!***

[nuposse87]

Even though a case can be made for him CURRENTLY being the best 2-guard in the NBA, he's still a second option?

And your trade proposal has WAY more pieces than mine...so you'd trade all of that (Beal, Ves, Oak/Ariza, & a lottery pick) for a "secondary option?"

*FWIW, this secondary option label for Harden is crazy. Look at who was option #1 in OKC!!

The SG position is extremely weak in the NBA right now, saying that he's either the 2nd/3rd (he isn't the best) best SG in the NBA doesn't mean much when the position is really...Meh these days. I'm not saying he is bad, at all...I'm saying his value is monstrously overrated. I fully believe this will show with time.

Jan is a throw in at this point, my point is I wouldn't give up Beal, a pic AND seraphin for Harden. Considering we have Nene weighing down on the cap plus giving Harden a max deal it is foolish to let them have Seraphin as well. Dumping okafor's salary or Ariza's ameliorates our ability to take on Harden.

You may have a point considering he was playing next to Durant...I honestly think unless they get an allstar caliper big man down in HOU, he's gonna put up meaning less numbers..

Oh, and Harden is a bad fit next to Wall IMO. Both guys are fairly sub-par without the ball in their hand.

[Destino]

Its actually the opposite. They win when he knows to pass the ball to durant. they lose when russy believes hes the best player on the team and starts jacking up shots and driving to the basket out of control. Sadly i dont think hell ever figure it out that hes not the alpha dog on the team. If he was the go to guy, playing for a different team, he would be great

The Thunder only have three scoring options. Durant, Westbrook, and now Martin instead of Harden. If Russell isn't scoring >20ppg the Thunder don't have anyone to replace that scoring output. Durant already averages 20 shots per game and his game opens up significantly when Russell is aggressive and forcing the defense to mind the middle instead of double teaming on the perimeter.

I think Westbrook needs to keep his shots at around 18 per game and avoid shooting if he's moving backwards or spotting up. He seems to thrive when he's attacking, even if he pulls up for a shot instead of getting to the rim.

I still think Westbrook is a SG though. At best he's a combo guard but he's not a true point.

[Shabby]

At best he's a combo guard but he's not a true point.

I mean, we all saw what happens when he becomes aggressive last night. He starts taking bad shots, forcing up jumpers, throwing up wild layups etc. If he were to drive a kick some more, people would respect the pass and not converge on him every time when he gets to the paint. 5 assists and 6 turnovers? not gonna get it done. They should have played harden as point guard and moved westbrook to shooting guard. harden is a better play maker than westbrook is when it comes to getting OTHER people shots. but its too late for that lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Nobody wants Okafor/Ariza. That's a ton of money on your cap for very little return.

[CrypticVillain]

they win when Russy is aggressive, and Durant isnt really the most assertive star either. (and he can get punked physically and doesnt have the best handles)

That may be true, but they win more when he is efficient. His shot wasn't falling last night, but he continued to shoot those lame jumpshots.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about KD. He needs to start taking over when things are close. He is too good to be passive like that.

Steve, you got some explaining to do... You crushed Harden in that post now you are saying the Thunder made a mistake. Which one is it?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Westbrook is best when he is aggressive. The Thunder are best when he is aggressive and efficient. What Harden gave them was a guy who could take the ball for a few possessions when Westbrook started to get out of control. They don't have that any longer.

[CrypticVillain]

What Harden gave them was a guy who could take the ball for a few possessions when Westbrook started to get out of control. They don't have that any longer.

That's a good way of looking at it LKB.

The more I think about Harden, I get a little madder at the Thunder, but I still don't think they are in any trouble. Hopefully Westbrook starts to get it....

I forgot all about PJ III until someone brought him up in the thread. I guess Brooks was trying to win the game last night instead of giving his rookies some burn.

If those two pan out (Jones and Lamb) the way people think they could, the Thunder will run the league in a couple of years.

[Going Commando]

What could we have offered that was better? Beal and ??? For the record, I was on record as trading the #3 pick for Harden. The most hilarious part is what SM said about Harden when we all talked about the getting Harden for the #3 pick. SM opinion about Harden sure changed in 4 months. SM in his own words:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?334052-The-Official-Washington-Wizards-Thread/page889

I was wrong, Harden is absolutely worth max money. Most of the teams in the league would give him max money. Does he deserve it? At worst he's very close. He's a great offensive player. As good as either Tony P or Manu are, he deserves to make at least in that 12-14 million a year range. And considering his age, he probably deserves even more.

But I wasn't wrong about his skill set. He's not a great athlete for a SG/SF type and he's a little undersized to play the three. He's a good, not great ball handler. He gets to the rack against the slow power teams in the West like the Lakers but good perimeter defenders like Wade and LeBron eat his lunch on drives. He's ideally a second or third banana because he doesn't have an alpha mentality and being the man on a team is something he himself said he didn't want.

All of that is why Charlotte didn't deal for him IMO. Harden as your best player is like having Joe Johnson as your best player. It'll get you to a mid round seed.

But Harden as your third best player? That can get you sustained championship contention.

That's why none of those weaknesses in his skill set matters to OKC. He was worth max money to them because he was the perfect third star for them. Where are they going to find another guy that fit into their team and system so seamlessly?

Simultaneously, OKC was the best fit for Harden. But you can't ask a guy to sacrifice that much for his team and give them 100% of the leverage. All OKC had to do was not nickel and dime him and give him the damn trade kicker. That was not too much for him to demand. They shouldn't have ever wanted or needed to trade him anyway. And they definitely shouldn't have pioritized Ibaka over him. Thinking Ibaka will make a leap to give him more value than Harden already has isn't planning--it's hoping.

And worst of all, it wasn't an Ibaka or Harden thing. They could have absolutely had both. They're full of BS to claim they couldn't afford it.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 03:16 PM ----------

If those two pan out (Jones and Lamb) the way people think they could, the Thunder will run the league in a couple of years.

PJIII is going to be out of the league in a couple of years. He's a complete dud. Great athlete. Great finesse skills. Terrible basketball player. He's a tin man.

Lamb might become a valuable role player for them, but he's never going to be the star people were thinking right after Uconn's championship season.

His final year was pretty crap. He was a Wizards level knucklehead and a defending champion team was a laughingstock with him as their best player. He was a gunner and played for his own numbers rather than lead his team and there is nothing I dislike more than a selfish wing jacking terrible shots and shoot his team out of games. It ruins the whole team chemistry.

Lamb has a few skills. He has a nasty crossover and a huge wingspan. He's got a proficient tear drop. He gets into passing lanes, but other than that, he can't defend. He can't run through screens and anyone in the league could post him up. He can't finish through contact and is going to get clobbered inside in the NBA. And he's never going to be strong because his frame is so narrow. So basically Lamb's upside is Kevin Martin. His downside? Nick Young.

Waaaay too much NY in him for my liking. But look at NY with the Clippers last year. On a team that's already good where he only plays a very minimal role--useful.

[CrypticVillain]

I'm not saying that Lamb and Jones will be all-stars, but I don't think either will be a dud.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Now that they have two stars their lack of fundamental basketball (yeah I said it) is going to hurt them much more than it did in the past. Ibaka taking long range jump shots (he even spotted up for a three the other night) is entirely the wrong direction for them. You could almost see the spurs defense dictating who would shoot the ball for the Thunder last night.

what does this mean?

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 04:47 PM ----------

Nobody wants Okafor/Ariza. That's a ton of money on your cap for very little return.

you sure?

That may be true' date=' but they win more when he is efficient. His shot wasn't falling last night, but he continued to shoot those lame jumpshots.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about KD. He needs to start taking over when things are close. He is too good to be passive like that. [/quote']

you are right, but Durant isnt going to take the ball out of Russy's hand. Then you look around ask who else will? In fact, who else can score besides Russy, Martin, and Durant on that team?

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 04:52 PM ----------

I'm not saying that Lamb and Jones will be all-stars, but I don't think either will be a dud.

Steve wants to justify the Brad Beal pick. I really believe Lamb will be better than Beal, and Lamb actually had a better year statistically his 2nd year.

And PJ3 just needs to contribute off the bench for them. I think he can be much more, but him playing with Russy and Durant will do wonders for his game, imo.

[CrypticVillain]

In fact, who else can score besides Russy, Martin, and Durant on that team?

Do they need anybody else to score consistently. The rest of the team needs to spot up for the three pointers and get offensive putbacks. Too bad they don't have a fourth option that can play with their back to the basket.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Do they need anybody else to score consistently. The rest of the team needs to spot up for the three pointers and get offensive putbacks. Too bad they don't have a fourth option that can play with their back to the basket.

I mentioned that because you suggested Russy should pass the ball more when his jumpshot is not going down.

I think PJ3 and Lamb will be able scorers going forward.

[nuposse87]

what does this mean?

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 04:47 PM ----------

you sure?

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2012/04/24/NBAs-Grunfeld-Grumwald-Myers-stay-as-GMs-RM1C4FLL-x-large.jpg

you are right, but Durant isnt going to take the ball out of Russy's hand. Then you look around ask who else will? In fact, who else can score besides Russy, Martin, and Durant on that team?

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 04:52 PM ----------

Steve wants to justify the Brad Beal pick. I really believe Lamb will be better than Beal, and Lamb actually had a better year statistically his 2nd year.

And PJ3 just needs to contribute off the bench for them. I think he can be much more, but him playing with Russy and Durant will do wonders for his game, imo.

I think their best "last possession" lineup will end up looking something like:

Maynor

Westbrook

Lamb/Martin (whoever is "hotter")

Durant

PJ III

Everyone in that lineup can stretch the floor and is a decent shooter. With time, that'll be their best answer to Miami's "position-less" lineup.

It'll be a long time before we figure which swingmen will be the best of the class. On athletic talent alone, my guess pre-draft was Ross, he's a bit more raw in some respects though.

[Going Commando]

Steve wants to justify the Brad Beal pick. I really believe Lamb will be better than Beal, and Lamb actually had a better year statistically his 2nd year.

And PJ3 just needs to contribute off the bench for them. I think he can be much more, but him playing with Russy and Durant will do wonders for his game, imo.

Are you saying you would have actually taken Lamb over Beal?

I don't have to justify the Beal pick. He was the obvious choice.

Lamb's averages improved in his second year about like you'd expect a freshman second banana's numbers to improve moving into a sophomore year where he was the man.

But that doesn't mean he actually had a good year. In fact, he didn't. And UConn had a disastrous season. I'm curious, how much of UConn did you catch? I saw several games and Lamb was not good. Pretty much nobody who saw him play thought he was better than Beal and nobody wanted him over Beal at 3.

Not even the Thunder think Lamb is better. Beal was the guy they tried to trade up to #2 for.

PJIII is a bum. I watched him both years at Baylor. Figured maybe it was just a fluke after the freshman year, that he would adjust and learn to dominate the next year. Nope. He is what he is. He was a loser in HS. He was a loser as the big recruit his freshman year. He was invisible as a sophomore. He's got #1 overall talent but he's got no heart whatsoever. He's not even going to be a decent NBA player, much less live up to a fraction of his potential. He doesn't seem to care about BBall at all.

[skinfan2k]

With the impact of the luxury tax in the upcoming years, the NBA is headed in the right direction. The only thing they cant avoid is players taking discounts to play for super teams otherwis

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Are you saying you would have actually taken Lamb over Beal?

I don't have to justify the Beal pick. He was the obvious choice.

Lamb's averages improved in his second year about like you'd expect a freshman second banana's numbers to improve moving into a sophomore year where he was the man.

But that doesn't mean he actually had a good year. In fact, he didn't. And UConn had a disastrous season. I'm curious, how much of UConn did you catch? I saw several games and Lamb was not good. Pretty much nobody who saw him play thought he was better than Beal and nobody wanted him over Beal at 3.

Not even the Thunder think Lamb is better. Beal was the guy they tried to trade up to #2 for.

PJIII is a bum. I watched him both years at Baylor. Figured maybe it was just a fluke after the freshman year, that he would adjust and learn to dominate the next year. Nope. He is what he is. He was a loser in HS. He was a loser as the big recruit his freshman year. He was invisible as a sophomore. He's got #1 overall talent but he's got no heart whatsoever. He's not even going to be a decent NBA player, much less live up to a fraction of his potential. He doesn't seem to care about BBall at all.

Beal only became the "obvious" choice because of some weird PR campaign the last year. He wasnt that good last year at Florida to the point that he should have been the #1 shooting guard in the draft.

Me personally? I advocated Drummond, but if we had to get a SG I think Lamb is the best bet. Trade down and get him instead of taking Beal.

And I like how you blame college kids for the disastrous year at UConn and not a horrible coaching situation.

As freshmen, Lamb was the better player. And Lamb has more of what you want in an NBA 2guard than Beal.

and I think PJ3 is in the right situation. He isnt asked to be the man, but one of the players. He will be very good in that role for them, imo. I agree that if he was drafted as the franchise player, it would end up a disaster for the guy and that franchise.

[ixcuincle]

I am biased against the HEat but they have a point in that they shouldn't be playing today

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/sports/rss/top/SIG=12f0lv903/*http%3A//sports.yahoo.com/news/heat-not-sure-playing-york-172736839--nba.html

Wade was so sure the game would be postponed that he never even packed until after practice Thursday. His reaction to all the traffic as New Yorkers struggle to recover further convinced him it should have been rescheduled.

''If we're in a car and we're in traffic for three hours, what are other people who are really affected by this, what are they doing? How are they getting around, how are they moving, et cetera?'' Wade said after the Heat's morning shootaround at Madison Square Garden.

''So it was just like, come on man, we shouldn't be here to play a basketball game. If anything, we should be here to do something to help the city.''

Cancel game. Spend the time helping the community recover. Big PR, everyone wins.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I am biased against the HEat but they have a point in that they shouldn't be playing today

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/sports/rss/top/SIG=12f0lv903/*http%3A//sports.yahoo.com/news/heat-not-sure-playing-york-172736839--nba.html

Cancel game. Spend the time helping the community recover. Big PR, everyone wins.

thats all on "greatest commissioner in sports history" Stern. He will escape criticism for this.

[Destino]

I mean, we all saw what happens when he becomes aggressive last night. He starts taking bad shots, forcing up jumpers, throwing up wild layups etc. If he were to drive a kick some more, people would respect the pass and not converge on him every time when he gets to the paint. 5 assists and 6 turnovers? not gonna get it done. They should have played harden as point guard and moved westbrook to shooting guard. harden is a better play maker than westbrook is when it comes to getting OTHER people shots. but its too late for that lol

I watched the game last night and one thing I noticed was that Westbrook couldn't buy a foul call. The dude got hammered on his drives to the bucket and the refs just ignored him. Even Reggie Miller pointed out at one point when Westbrook got knocked over on the dribble and there was no whistle either way that "that had to be something". His layups and pull up jumpers aren't wild, they are fairly consistent.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 06:58 PM ----------

what does this mean?

That they break the rules of what basketball has traditionally required to be successful. They are a team that falls in love with long jump shots and they rely far too much on hero ball. We've seen that hero ball can work when you have an overwhelming talent and athletic advantage. They have less talent now and I don't think what they have left is enough to mirror last years results. The team will need to change if they have a hope of getting to the conference championship again, let alone win it. I don't give them a chance in hell should they play the Heat again.

[CrypticVillain]

I mentioned that because you suggested Russy should pass the ball more when his jumpshot is not going down.

I think PJ3 and Lamb will be able scorers going forward.

True. But when I said Westbrook should pass more, I meant kick outs and stuff.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

That they break the rules of what basketball has traditionally required to be successful. They are a team that falls in love with long jump shots and they rely far too much on hero ball. We've seen that hero ball can work when you have an overwhelming talent and athletic advantage. They have less talent now and I don't think what they have left is enough to mirror last years results. The team will need to change if they have a hope of getting to the conference championship again, let alone win it. I don't give them a chance in hell should they play the Heat again.

idk, I believe they have a lot of talent. More than most teams.

I think they need proper coaching tho.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 07:46 PM ----------

True. But when I said Westbrook should pass more, I meant kick outs and stuff.

Outside of Durant and Martin, they dont have shooters right now.

[CrypticVillain]

idk, I believe they have a lot of talent. More than most teams.

I think they need proper coaching tho.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 07:46 PM ----------

Outside of Durant and Martin, they dont have shooters right now.

The might not be Ray Allen, but Maynor and Sefolosha could knock some down.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 08:02 PM ----------

Oh yeah, Magic Johnson is an idiot. He said he would trade Pau Gasol for Josh Smith. :rotflmao:

[Going Commando]

Oh yeah, Magic Johnson is an idiot. He said he would trade Pau Gasol for Josh Smith. :rotflmao:

I like Josh Smith as a whole. I don't know about him on the Lakers. But he's a good and underrated player IMO. He can defend, pass, rebound, and score in a variety of ways. He would be an upgrade at forward for most teams around the league. Over Pau? Probably not. I really like Pau's game too.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

The might not be Ray Allen, but Maynor and Sefolosha could knock some down.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 08:02 PM ----------

Oh yeah, Magic Johnson is an idiot. He said he would trade Pau Gasol for Josh Smith. :rotflmao:

unless those two have improved a lot over the summer, I doubt it. Both are not even decent shooters.

and I would trade Gasol for Smith. Smith can do everything Gasol can do, but brings athleticism and better defending.

[Going Commando]

Beal only became the "obvious" choice because of some weird PR campaign the last year. He wasnt that good last year at Florida to the point that he should have been the #1 shooting guard in the draft.

Me personally? I advocated Drummond, but if we had to get a SG I think Lamb is the best bet. Trade down and get him instead of taking Beal.

And I like how you blame college kids for the disastrous year at UConn and not a horrible coaching situation.

I blame Lamb for the way he responded to the situation. He started gunning and playing for his own numbers in some games, completely checking out in others. Just selfish basketball. It made everything else that was going on worse.

Drummond would have been more defensible at 3 than Lamb, but to me, you can't justify taking such a huge project over a guy who fit the current team so well. Shooting was our biggest problem. Drummond was a guy you might not see any real return on investment until four to six years from now. And the Wiz do not have a good track record for developing projects.

Wall needed a good player to play with in the more immediate future. Wall is the Wizards franchise. His development was lagging and it hurt not having any other good NBA players to play with. The pick had to be either Beal or TRob.

As freshmen, Lamb was the better player. And Lamb has more of what you want in an NBA 2guard than Beal.

I disagree. Beal has a better NBA body and he does it all whereas Lamb is a much less versatile player. Beal will run through a hundred screens a night hounding the perimeter on defense, he will look to set up teammates and move the ball, he will rebound and block shots, he will spot up and provide a shooting threat from mid range and from 3, but he can also get to the rim and show some creativity.

And he's going to do it all taking good shots and playing strong assignment-minded basketball.

I think Beal is a really prototypical 2 guard for the NBA game. Lamb is a rail thin scorer who is going to have a harder adjustment to the NBA IMO. He's got no strength on him. He's going to have to live off that tear drop when he drives because he can't finish through contact, and he's going to need an offense designed to get him open looks on the perimeter--which I see being a problem for him in OKC.

and I think PJ3 is in the right situation. He isnt asked to be the man, but one of the players. He will be very good in that role for them, imo. I agree that if he was drafted as the franchise player, it would end up a disaster for the guy and that franchise.

Where we disagree is that I don't think any situation is right for PJIII. I believe his heart is not in basketball and he would rather do something else with his life, but the money was just too good for a few seasons in the NBA. He just doesn't seem to care. He's a 6'11 leaper with skills that outruns his guards. He would be flat out dominant with even modest effort.

What's going to happen for him in OKC is he's going to languish on the bench and never get burn because the coach isn't going to trust him enough to give him meaningful PT, and the OKC coach has no real need to develop him since he's already got KD and Russ.

Lamb has a much better chance to become a useful role player for them. For a good team Lamb can be KMart. He's going to assume that same role once KMart is gone. But for a bad team like ours, Lamb would be Nick Young all over again.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 08:46 PM ----------

unless those two have improved a lot over the summer, I doubt it. Both are not even decent shooters.

and I would trade Gasol for Smith. Smith can do everything Gasol can do, but brings athleticism and better defending.

I think Smith would be good for the Lakers but I think Gasol is better. Smith can drive and pass and shoot passably from mid range, but he has a lot of mental lapses. Plus Gasol is a better at playing classic big man defense. Smith isn't really a true big man, more of a perimeter oriented forward. You use Gasol to play positional D on any big man you face and then you're free to really feature Dwight and let him play the ball. Really gives you flexibility with Dwight IMO, who I think will get more valuable as he regains his explosiveness. I don't think Josh Smith is as natural a pair with Dwight.

This all assumes the Lakers don't sell off Gasol for nothing to get out of his contract. I think that would be so foolish. A player like Pau was born to play with a player like Dwight. Though most bigs would love to play with one like Dwight.