alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 if you accept a superior being can create a universe and two humans,the little matter of adaptive dna is a breeze to assert the limitations we operate under(and our understanding of them) onto something not bound by them is the 1st error science cannot explain God, he on the other hand can explain science If too much evidence points at something, putting a God against it puts that God into the Trickster God territory. You probably want to avoid that. Can you define God? Without a definition I have no idea what you are even talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 If too much evidence points at something, putting a God against it puts that God into the Trickster God territory. You probably want to avoid that.Can you define God? Without a definition I have no idea what you are even talking about What evidence?....Our understanding of genetics and evolution continues to evolve. By my post it would be a all powerful,creator God obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 What evidence?....Our understanding of genetics and evolution continues to evolve.By my post it would be a all powerful,creator God obviously If God created this Universe some thousands of years ago, and he made it look like the Universe is 14.6 billions of years old, then he is a Trickster God. Is this all powerful creator God made out real stuff that exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I actually think about this often. At some point there would almost have to be a common ancestor,, a single child that was born with the next step towards what has become modern homo sapiens.Right? So I guess in a way, inbreeding to some extent has been unavoidable. ~Bang Evolution of species takes place at the population level, not at an individual level. ---------- Post added August-30th-2012 at 11:47 AM ---------- What evidence?....Our understanding of genetics and evolution continues to evolve. It's not evolving towards what you are trying to spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 If God created this Universe some thousands of years ago 2nd mistake....... only a small subset are young earth creationists,and again time is not the same as our if it is a all powerful being that created what we base our understanding of time on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve#Science_vs._literalism I don't think your link means what you think it means, though that might have been intentional by the person that wrote it, and since it isn't referenced and not very clearly IMO. Humans have been around for more than several thousand years. We have been here for about 200,000 years. I think your link is saying that all current humans evolved from a population that was produced by a disasters and bottle necks and that total populations coming from those bottle necks had to be about 10,000. It is extremely difficult to imagine the simultanous birht of 10,000 individuals that all happened to have the combination of DNA mutations that made us "unique" from our ancestors (how you go about where to draw the line and how to do it, I don't know, but w/ respect to the point you seem to be making w/ respect to that statement). It is generally accepted that there is limited variation in the human genome w/ respect to other species related to bottlenecks. That is more diverse populations were shrunk to less diverse populations due to something. Realisically, for most of us, there wasn't a single breeding pair because most of us of non-African descent also have Neanderthall genes as well, and since it is unique to those of us that are of non-African descent it clearly shows that it was post-H. sapien evolution. In terms of the LCM (last common mother) and LCF, it would appear that one group (either the people doing the Neanderthal DNA stuff or the people doing the LCM and LCF stuff) has issues in terms of their results, or they weren't necessarily humans (i.e. the LCM might have been the LCA for humans and neanderthals). Or the issue is more complex than to easily address on a message board because those things are related ONLY to mitochondrial DNA or the Y chromosome and therefore don't take into "parental" DNA from other parents in other pieces of DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 2nd mistake....... only a small subset are young earth creationists,and again time is not the same as our if it is a all powerful being that created what we base our understanding of time on. If you're saying that God banged the big bang, OK. If you're saying that God is made out of supernatural undetectable material and he exists outside of our knowledge, understanding, or evidence, OK. If you're saying that God actually exists, that we can know something about him, that he is made of real stuff, or that he somehow interacts with reality, then you should be able to point at something other than your imagination or anecdotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 If you're saying that God actually exists, that we can know something about him, that he is made of real stuff, or that he somehow interacts with reality, then you should be able to point at something other than your imagination or anecdotes. You believe in forces and laws of nature? isn't order something other than imagination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I found this to be an interesting article related to this subject. http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/intermediate/is-it-possible-to-be-a-christian-and-believe-in-evolution.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan07 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 WELL... to play Devil's Advocate for the Adam and Eve idea... we don't really know that,, we might BE those genetic freaks. Our potential might have been to be something else if not for inbreeding snce the Beginning.if all we know is this, than this is our normal. ~Bang Cue history channel alien guy meme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 If you're saying that God banged the big bang, OK. If you're saying that God is made out of supernatural undetectable material and he exists outside of our knowledge, understanding, or evidence, OK. If you're saying that God actually exists, that we can know something about him, that he is made of real stuff, or that he somehow interacts with reality, then you should be able to point at something other than your imagination or anecdotes. Luke 16:19-31 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 You believe in forces and laws of nature?isn't order something other than imagination? Yes and yes. What does this have to do with believers claiming to know something about God which is unknowable by definition? Do you see where I am coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 ... Yes good old ways of advancing religion using threats of hell and and the immoral doctrine of infinite punishment for a finite crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Yes and yes. What does this have to do with believers claiming to know something about God which is unknowable by definition? Do you see where I am coming from? Last time I checked, believers believe that Scripture is God revealing Himself to mankind. We call it Special Revelation. This is a very informative article that may benefit those who are not familiar with General and Special Revelation: http://carm.org/questions/about-bible/what-general-and-special-revelation ---------- Post added August-30th-2012 at 12:46 PM ---------- Yes good old ways of advancing religion using threats of hell and and the immoral doctrine of infinite punishment for a finite crime. I think you missed Jesus's point. The fact that Hell exists is not the purpose the teaching, nor is it intended as a threat. The point is in the last verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Last time I checked, believers believe that Scripture is God revealing Himself to mankind. We call it Special Revelation. This is a very informative article that may benefit those who are not familiar with General and Special Revelation: http://carm.org/questions/about-bible/what-general-and-special-revelation Some people believe that the Bible was inspired by the Devil to foster obedience to authority and hinder our ability to use our God-given moral faculties. Who else could twist believers into thinking that God would drown sinners or approve of slavery and genocide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Very strange that this thread came up. I've been asking myself this very question as a Christian that believes the creation story is a parable. Call it...a divine sign. One of the better presentations of one way to reconcile evolution and Genesis is presented by Randal Rauser, From Adam to Zorg: A Dialogue on Creation and Evolution (it was originally titled something like "Why Ms. B doesn't need an historical Adam). I'd recommend the whole thing to those that are interested, as it addresses possible approaches to issues such as Sciptural authority, the relationship between Adam and Jesus, and so on, but here's a relevant excerpt: Mr. A: Aren’t you just stepping back from a literal reading because science has forced you to?Ms. B: No, because Christians have always held to widely divergent readings of the Genesis creation narrative. It is a staggering anachronism to think that ancient near eastern cosmogonic creation narratives muts be read like a newspaper article or a report in “Nature”. It is also important to observe the diversity of ways the texts were read in the Christian tradition. Try reading Augustine’s sixteen hundred year old “On the Literal Meaning of Genesis” for starters and you’ll see I offer no new innovation here. But even if it were true that Christians all interpreted Genesis literally until science made certain advances, so what? Why couldn’t science yield new insight into how a revelatory text is to be read? If all truth is God’s truth, why couldn’t truth in one area illumine truth in another? Indeed, shouldn’t we expect such cross-fertilization? Mr. A: So basically you’re saying that the ancient Hebrews were not asking the questions of the contemporary physicist, geologist or biologist. Ms. B: That’s correct. When they told a story like Genesis creation-fall it would have been concerned primarily with establishing a sense of God’s sovereignty over creation as well as the universal estrangement of creation that we recognize as suffering and sin. In order to communicate these truths, the text narrates a vivid story. To get a sense of how ridiculous literalists look at this point, imagine two hermeneutically challenged biology students who read poet Robert Burns’ claim that “My love is like a red, red rose”. One rejects the text by averring that love really is a complex neurochemical reaction between serotonin and oxytocin. The other defends the text by arguing that the text is presenting a synesthetic account of the nature of emotional bonding associated with light in the wavelength range of roughly 630-740 nm. What would you think of that debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Here's my two cents. For me, the garden of Eden happened. "So sayeth the Lord". However, there seems to me that at the same time, there were humans on the earth not part of this story. Cain and Abel. Cain's children ran off and married people not of his lineage. The only way to account for this is that Humans were here, but only Adam and Eve were shown to the prophets, as it only mattered at that time to share that part of the word - to prove he is the creator. As for the human mutations presented above, the Tower of Babel comes to mind. God punished man for trying to reach heaven and separated them to ends of the earth and gave them all different speech so that they could not come together and try it again. (I would assume speech, melatonin levels, heights, facial features, hair growth, etc are all related to this event) Humans have evolved from there. These are my opinions / faith and that is the extent to which I present my thoughts. Not trying to sway anyones judgement. I love these threads. Very thought provoking. Hail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think you missed Jesus's point. The fact that Hell exists is not the purpose the teaching, nor is it intended as a threat.The point is in the last verse. If the dead are demonstrated to communicate messages to the living, it will certainly turn some heads. That kind of evidence would be more convincing than ancient myths and anecdotes. So what do we have? God can provide better evidence to convince people, but he decides not to. And then, according to rules that he set up, people who did not get convinced on insufficient evidence will get tortured for eternity. What am i missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Who else could twist believers into thinking that God would drown sinners or approve of slavery and genocide? Democrats :evilg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Here's my two cents. For me, the garden of Eden happened. "So sayeth the Lord". However, there seems to me that at the same time, there were humans on the earth not part of this story. Cain and Abel. Cain's children ran off and married people not of his lineage. The only way to account for this is that Humans were here, but only Adam and Eve were shown to the prophets, as it only mattered at that time to share that part of the word - to prove he is the creator.As for the human mutations presented above, the Tower of Babel comes to mind. God punished man for trying to reach heaven and separated them to ends of the earth and gave them all different speech so that they could not come together and try it again. (I would assume speech, melatonin levels, heights, facial features, hair growth, etc are all related to this event) Humans have evolved from there. These are my opinions / faith and that is the extent to which I present my thoughts. Not trying to sway anyones judgement. I love these threads. Very thought provoking. Hail How do you handle evidence that does not corroborate with these events or openly suggests that they never happened? Other cultures do not have a Tower of Babel story, for example. Also, we know that global flood never happened. ---------- Post added August-30th-2012 at 01:10 PM ---------- Democrats :evilg: Too soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 If you are actually interested in questions like this, there is an area called evolutionary theology that has people that have good evolutionary backgrounds that consider such issues. Here's an example: http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205 And F.J. Ayala, who is mentioned in that piece and was a priest (though I don't actually know his current religious beliefs) and is a an excellent scientist has written several books. Darwin's Gift to Science and Religion addresses several of the issues you have raised to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Christ was dead three days and came back to life. The next time dead rise and walk the earth, it will be too late. There is no level of proof of ANYTHING that can prove something to a dead set non believer. Some choose to believe, others don't. God could descend from on high, think a cold beer into your hand, fireworks shoot from his fingertips, give you the next powerball numbers, and slap you in the face with a bible and say "dude, DO WHAT I SAY" and man will still rebuke him. It is how we are. (thankfully not me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Not parable, but a story used to explain the effects of evil upon the world and humanity as reflected in human rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 How do you handle evidence that does not corroborate with these events or openly suggests that they never happened? Other cultures do not have a Tower of Babel story, for example. Also, we know that global flood never happened. I say that there are ruins in the earth that will never be discovered. We've been searching for Atlantis for a millenium and can't find evidence other than some crazy old man's writings. (the irony is awesome) I don't believe in a global flood. 'the world' is merely their interpretation of what they saw. If everything you know to exist is covered in water, probably a safe assumption everything you don't see is also covered. How do you think the Japanese felt when the tsunami hit? Their entire world was covered in water. If not for global media, they would continue to believe so until proven otherwise. You bring some great questions to bear, Alexey. Thank you for your participation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 How do you handle evidence that does not corroborate with these events or openly suggests that they never happened? Other cultures do not have a Tower of Babel story, for example. Also, we know that global flood never happened. St. Augustine wrote about this: Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.... Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by these who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1988/PSCF3-88Young.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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