Homer: The Redskins can learn a lot from the 49ers

[TheLongshot]

And how far would that serviceable guy taken us. I still want a franchise QB. No matter what anyone says in here, until we get that #1 guy, we won't go far in the regular season or playoffs. It's a QB driven league and we haven't had one in 20 years. It's our turn.

Last I checked, the 49ers are in the NFC championship game.

[jtpop]

In a QB driven league, two of the remaining QB's are Joe Flacco and Alex Smith.....just saying........maybe D still plays a major role in success in January. Still think we need a QB but if a good option is not available or if the price is way too steep not sure where we turn. Campbell could be available with Palmer in Oakland, just please, please, please have someone behind center next year other than Rex or John Beck. Is that to much to ask?

[pjfootballer]

Last I checked, the 49ers are in the NFC championship game.

And it was Smith who single handedly along with Davis who defeated the Saints. There will always be the Trent Dilfers of the league, but more often then not, you need a Rodgers, Brady, Brees type QB to win in this league.

[Mursilis]

And how far would that serviceable guy taken us. I still want a franchise QB. No matter what anyone says in here, until we get that #1 guy, we won't go far in the regular season or playoffs. It's a QB driven league and we haven't had one in 20 years. It's our turn.

That's like saying I want a winning lottery ticket, Captain Obvious. The other 31 teams in the league either already have a franchise QB, or would like one as well. Easy to say, hard to find. So far, Shanahan has two strikes with McNabb and Beck, so let's hope his next swing is a home run.

[darrelgreenie]

For all the criticism that Campbell's detractors heap upon him while at the same time claiming the team lacked talent I wonder what they point to support they're intense dislike?

Its always captain checkdown or some argument that involves turning a blind eye to the stats.

They make Campbell out to be some special case where for him the stats don't show how 'poorly' he played.

At the same time all of Campbell's stats including advanced metrics like DYAR/DVOA and ESPN new QBR support that Campbell wasn't that bad.

[TimmySmith]

In a QB driven league, two of the remaining QB's are Joe Flacco and Alex Smith.....just saying........maybe D still plays a major role in success in January. Still think we need a QB but if a good option is not available or if the price is way too steep not sure where we turn. Campbell could be available with Palmer in Oakland, just please, please, please have someone behind center next year other than Rex or John Beck. Is that to much to ask?

Forget Campbell, on his best day he was no Flacco or Smith. Smith was top ten in QB Rating and both Flacco and Smith had great TD to Int ratio. They just play in run first offenses.

[jtpop]

Forget Campbell, on his best day he was no Flacco or Smith. Smith was top ten in QB Rating and both Flacco and Smith had great TD to Int ratio. They just play in run first offenses.

He also is no Rex Grossman or John Beck either........

[darrelgreenie]

The 49ers built a team, coupled with outstanding coaching.

Offensive line.

Defensive line.

Special teams.

Harbaugh took a QB with a good physical skillset and coached him to play closer to his potential through scheme and support.

The difference form the QB point of view between the 49ers and the Burgundy and Gold is that Harbaugh was more successful/chose a more apt pupil.

[pjfootballer]

That's like saying I want a winning lottery ticket, Captain Obvious. The other 31 teams in the league either already have a franchise QB, or would like one as well. Easy to say, hard to find. So far, Shanahan has two strikes with McNabb and Beck, so let's hope his next swing is a home run.

I'm just tired of everyone justifying having a serviceable QB. I'm tired of it. I'm not saying he has to be the next Brady, but wouldn't it be nice to have a QB who is at least in the top 10 of the NFL? A guy that other teams have to worry about beating them? We haven't had anyone behind center in the last 20 years that scares defenses. We have to take the chance and trade up for Luck or RG3. We can't afford to wait another year.

[Mursilis]

For all the criticism that Campbell's detractors heap upon him while at the same time claiming the team lacked talent I wonder what they point to support they're intense dislike?

Its always captain checkdown or some argument that involves turning a blind eye to the stats.

They make Campbell out to be some special case where for him the stats don't show how 'poorly' he played.

At the same time all of Campbell's stats including advanced metrics like DYAR/DVOA and ESPN new QBR support that Campbell wasn't that bad.

Campbell starts looking even better every time the team tries to replace him (still!). Grossman and Beck couldn't do it, but at least they didn't cost this team picks, unlike McNabb, who lasted a single season. How much better would this team have been to have kept Campbell and that 2nd round pick spent on McNabb? There was plenty of talent still available when that pick was used - guys like Navorro Bowman, Rob Gronkowski, Jimmy Graham, Terence Cody, and Sean Lee.

[Darth Tater]

Personally, I think Campbell would have been better than Rex. Why did Campbell check down so much? Few WR targets and a deteriorating OL. To be honest, Rex probably had better targets than Campbell ever had here.

Campbell has one of the highest expected YAC of active QBs. So, given few WR targets and a deteriorating OL, unless Campbell was irretrievably shell-shocked, I think you are probably right.

[themurf]

I don't want a damn "serviceable" quarterback. We've had a "conga" line of serviceable QBs since Rypien left. I want a bonafide, 10+ year, balls to the wall fanchise QB along the likes of Rodgers, P. Manning, Brady or Brees. As a Redskin fan, I want an elite QB and so should the rest of us. To hell with serviceable.

At this point, I'm absolutely with you. It's why I'd be willing to give up whatever it takes to move up and land either Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin III. And while I get what you were saying, just seeing you mention Peyton Manning was enough to make me punch my computer monitor this morning. I really, really hope the team learned their lesson with the Donovan McNabb experiment and stays the hell away from Peyton.

[MartinC]

The thing we should learn from the 49ers is that not turning the football over and creating turnovers is a very good way to win football games. Doing the opposite results in lots of losses.

The 49ers lead the league in turnover differential with something like a plus 28 takeaway/giveaway number while we were next to last with a double digit minus number. Thats why the 49ers are deep in the playoffs and we are talking draft and free agency.

Now Murfs point about building through the draft is valid but those turnover/takeaway numbers are the stark difference in these two teams this year.

[pjfootballer]

At this point, I'm absolutely with you. It's why I'd be willing to give up whatever it takes to move up and land either Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin III. And while I get what you were saying, just seeing you mention Peyton Manning was enough to make me punch my computer monitor this morning. I really, really hope the team learned their lesson with the Donovan McNabb experiment and stays the hell away from Peyton.

No more castoffs for me. I loved to watch Peyton play, but I want our own home grown, drafted quarterback. And you know what, he doesn't have to be the best in the NFL. When I mention guys like Brady, Rodgers and Brees, I just want a top 10 QB. A QB that actual puts fear into the defense. A QB that the other team must plan around. He doesn't have to be as good as Brady or Brees as I know those kinds of guys are rare, but why can't he "at least" be mentioned among the elite? As long as he fits the offense and leads the team to a SB win is all that matters, but when your career leader in all team quarterback stats retired in 1952 and died, you know you need a franchise type QB.

[Darth Tater]

The thing we should learn from the 49ers is that not turning the football over and creating turnovers is a very good way to win football games. Doing the opposite results in lots of losses.

The 49ers lead the league in turnover differential with something like a plus 28 takeaway/giveaway number while we were next to last with a double digit minus number. Thats why the 49ers are deep in the playoffs and we are talking draft and free agency.

Now Murfs point about building through the draft is valid but those turnover/takeaway numbers are the stark difference in these two teams this year.

We don't need to learn that turnovers are bad since we know that. Knowing and doing (not doing in this case) are different things.

[MartinC]

We don't need to learn that turnovers are bad since we know that. Knowing and doing (not doing in this case) are different things.

Right. But in looking at a comparison between the Skins and 49ers turnovers and takeaways is the glaring difference this year - how much that s a function of how each roster was built is a subject for debate.

Replacing our QB who turned the ball over twice a game last year would be a great place to start in fixing this issue.

[Darth Tater]

Right. But in looking at a comparison between the Skins and 49ers turnovers and takeaways is the glaring difference this year - how much that s a function of how each roster was built is a subject for debate.

Replacing our QB who turned the ball over twice a game last year would be a great place to start in fixing this issue.

But the point was what can we LEARN from the 49ers, we already KNEW that so we don't need to LEARN it. Any new information that can be gleaned here is that the turnover issue can be fixed if pretty much, we just stay the course or change coaches. Doing this is not going to fix our issue and generally doesn't work.

[Mursilis]

No more castoffs for me. I loved to watch Peyton play, but I want our own home grown, drafted quarterback. And you know what, he doesn't have to be the best in the NFL. When I mention guys like Brady, Rodgers and Brees, I just want a top 10 QB. A QB that actual puts fear into the defense. A QB that the other team must plan around. He doesn't have to be as good as Brady or Brees as I know those kinds of guys are rare, but why can't he "at least" be mentioned among the elite? As long as he fits the offense and leads the team to a SB win is all that matters, but when your career leader in all team quarterback stats retired in 1952 and died, you know you need a franchise type QB.

If you're going to cite Brees, you should know he was a "castoff", and was not drafted by New Orleans. There's nothing wrong with getting a free-agent QB, if he's young and can play at least 5 more years. Peyton's too old at this point, but if Flynn's got the skills to be a top-10 QB (personally, he looks very talented to me but I have no idea if he can do that for a full season), I'd have no problem picking him up. Especially since it's looking like Luck and Griffin will go to other teams, unfortunately.

[MartinC]

But the point was what can we LEARN from the 49ers, we already KNEW that so we don't need to LEARN it.

If you want to argue semantics knowing something is not the same as understanding the implications of what you know and modifying behaviour as a result. Part of learning is the acquisition of knowledge - we know that turnovers are bad - but most definitions of learning centre around changing behaviour or attitude as a result of the knowledge or experience gained.

So what do we learn from knowing turnovers are bad and what do we do to change the behaviours that caused the problem this year? When your QB turned it over twice a game I don't think the answer is difficult.

[pjfootballer]

If you're going to cite Brees, you should know he was a "castoff", and was not drafted by New Orleans. There's nothing wrong with getting a free-agent QB, if he's young and can play at least 5 more years. Peyton's too old at this point, but if Flynn's got the skills to be a top-10 QB (personally, he looks very talented to me but I have no idea if he can do that for a full season), I'd have no problem picking him up. Especially since it's looking like Luck and Griffin will go to other teams, unfortunately.

You don't find a 25 year old free agent QB like Brees (drafted by SD which I knew, in the 2nd round) very often to become the franchise QB. Brees was an anamoly as far as I'm concerned. Flynn scares me and I don't want him. I'd rather take our lumps with a rookie. Never count Shanahan out. If he wants his QB, he'll get his QB. I'm not so sure why you don't think we'll get Luck or RG3 when were still in January, and the draft is still 3 months away and there is plenty of time to make a move to trade up.

[Darth Tater]

No, actually Martin, MOST definitions of learning have nothing to do with application. Again, the 9ers lesson, if any, concerning turnovers, is that the QB is not the problem. This is, as you said, is not the what we want to learn.

[MartinC]

No, actually Martin, MOST definitions of learning have nothing to do with application. Again, the 9ers lesson, if any, concerning turnovers, is that the QB is not the problem. This is, as you said, is not the what we want to learn.

As someone who has worked in the adult and professional learning industry for the last 20 years I'm going to disagree with you on the learning definition question. I'm also going to have to disagree with you if you think a QB who turns the ball over is not a problem.

But lets leave this topic as I think I'm taking the thread into a blind alley.

[Jericho]

If you're going to cite Brees, you should know he was a "castoff", and was not drafted by New Orleans. There's nothing wrong with getting a free-agent QB, if he's young and can play at least 5 more years. Peyton's too old at this point, but if Flynn's got the skills to be a top-10 QB (personally, he looks very talented to me but I have no idea if he can do that for a full season), I'd have no problem picking him up. Especially since it's looking like Luck and Griffin will go to other teams, unfortunately.

I think the issue here is that Brees is really the ONLY free agent QB to be particularly successful. A few guys, particularly at the end of their careers, have worked out. Like Warner or Favre. But a real long term solution? Brees is it. That's because no team lets good QBs go. Either you resign him or you franchise him. Brees was the victim of a perfect storm of circumstances (he sucked for several years prompting the team to spend another top 5 pick on a QB, then got good, then had a shoulder injury, then the team could not afford Brees and Rivers. The Chargers should have franchised Brees (they did once) and traded him like the Pats did with Cassel. I think they got scared for salary cap reasons and his injury). Now Flynn could be another Brees. But Brees was a proven QB. Flynn is completely unproven. If Green Bay is letting him go, you'd have to think its for a reason. The only good news is you know Rodgers is good. So the hope is while you know GB is willing to let Flynn walk (and therefore can't be betetr than Rodgers), maybe he's is 90% of Rodgers and not 50% of Rodgers.

[MartinC]

I think the issue here is that Brees is really the ONLY free agent QB to be particularly successful. A few guys, particularly at the end of their careers, have worked out. Like Warner or Favre. But a real long term solution? Brees is it. That's because no team lets good QBs go. Either you resign him or you franchise him. Brees was the victim of a perfect storm of circumstances (he sucked for several years prompting the team to spend another top 5 pick on a QB, then got good, then had a shoulder injury, then the team could not afford Brees and Rivers. The Chargers should have franchised Brees (they did once) and traded him like the Pats did with Cassel. I think they got scared for salary cap reasons and his injury). Now Flynn could be another Brees. But Brees was a proven QB. Flynn is completely unproven. If Green Bay is letting him go, you'd have to think its for a reason. The only good news is you know Rodgers is good. So the hope is while you know GB is willing to let Flynn walk (and therefore can't be betetr than Rodgers), maybe he's is 90% of Rodgers and not 50% of Rodgers.

Free agent as a long term solution and you are probably right with your comment about Brees. If you open it out to include trades it opens up the field a bit though, Steve Young comes to mind and if you look closer to home Sonny Jurgensen and Joe Theismann. Drafting and developing your QB should be plan A for sure though.

[SkinsFTW]

I think Schaub is a top 10 QB as well who also switched teams.

---------- Post added January-20th-2012 at 04:32 PM ----------

How much better would this team have been to have kept Campbell and that 2nd round pick spent on McNabb?

I think its pointless talking about Campbell now since I doubt there was any chance of him starting in Shanahans offense. There is a reason Grossman still played despite throwing a ton of Ints. He's playing with balls and probably actually making the correct decision, he just doesn't have the skills. Campbell would never play like that and would look about as bad as Beck and Shanahan already knew that. If he didn't then why trade for McNugget?