Think Hard - What does Joe Gibbs do so differently?

[Destino]

Did Gibbs average 36.7 passing attempts per game compared to 22.6 rushing attempts per game? That's 61.9% pass. That's what the skins are averaging this season. I thought it might be the product of an incomplete season or something but last season: 37.8 to 21.9 or 63.3% passing.

Couple that with a turnover prone quarterback and you can see why the skins have 23 turnovers, 3rd worst in the league.

[KDawg]

Gibbs has a personality that would make his players dive off a cliff for him, but his players also know that Gibbs wouldn't want that because he cares about them. He's the ultimate player's coach, but he also had discipline. He did a good, not great, job here his second stint. And given the Vinny handicap, I'd say that's not bad.

[Skins Wingman]

Did Gibbs average 36.7 passing attempts per game compared to 22.6 rushing attempts per game? That's 61.9% pass. That's what the skins are averaging this season. I thought it might be the product of an incomplete season or something but last season: 37.8 to 21.9 or 63.3% passing.

Couple that with a turnover prone quarterback and you can see why the skins have 23 turnovers, 3rd worst in the league.

the problem is we always get down early and have to abandon the running game. even when we do try to run, we get nothing. theres no point in running 30 times a game if your only gonna get 60 yards out of it. our running game just isnt clicking.

[paloosa]

I will tell you why. Joe Gibbs commanded respect from the time he came back until the time he left. He also had a very good staff around him that knew what it took to run his offense. look at Bugel and what he did with the O-line when he was here. They were pretty bad and over matched but he got the best out of them. Also Vinny didn't have as much to say about the talent coming in as Gibbs did. So some of the bad signings were on Gibbs during that time. Sorry to say that but it is true. The other thing is that everyone bought into his system and were well coached in their assignments. I didn't like Gregg Williams but the defense played just as good as any that had played here. Now for the current team. I think that Shanahan is doing everything right but it does take time to purge all the bad elements of the team. Not everyone that was here and went onto other teams have done well. Carlos Rogers is having a career year and is playing for a new contract. So what if San Fran decides to resign Rogers to a long term deal? Will he have as many picks as he has this year or ever? The biggest problem with this team is too many changes every two years or so. No one can play at a high level like that. So what if They fire Shanahan after the year? Who do they bring in or hire from within? Do they stay a 3-4 defense or go back to a 4-3? Heck, you might as well hire me or some Joe Blow off the streets because that will be where all the good coaches will view the vacancy as. A big joke. So whether we had Joe Gibbs, Marty Schottenheimer, Jim Zorn, Steve Spurrier, or Norv Turner, there hasn't been any consistency at the HC position. So how do you expect the team to perform consistently?

[Henry]

True to an extent, but I find this statement somewhat ridiculous. I really think the only time the Skins quit under Norv was after he was fired during those games against Dallas and Pittsburgh. With Zorn, everyone was talking about how much the team was fighting in the latter part of the year with the tough losses to Dallas and Philly and taking the Saints to OT. The team only quit after Vinny was dismissed and Bruce came in and the writing was on the wall. With Spurrier, same thing. All throughout the 2003 season we were losing but the games were close and people were talking about how the team was fighting. Then at the end it unraveled with the blowouts at home to Dallas and Philly. The latter part of the Spurrier era is still mysterious, as its still interesting that he walked away from $15 million.

The statement is absolutely fair. The teams under Turner, Spurrier and Zorn were soft. Players brought in from other teams would talk about how easy our training camps were and how much they loved playing for Turner. He was like a dad that spoiled his kids and made them lazy. Spurrier was simply a flake and Zorn was in over his head. Both of those coaches left teams in utter disarray. I forgive Zorn a bit because he had his knees cut out from under him by Snyder. But Spurrier just didn't bother to give a damn.

The Gibbs teams the second time around were not perfect, but the players would run through a brick wall for the guy. They were not soft. Twice during his second stint we went 4-0 over the last four games. The last Redskin coach to manage that other than Gibbs was George Allen.

I'm not sure what Gibbs has. Certainly his track record from his first stint indicates he's a great coach. But what other coach in the Snyder era has been given the time that Gibbs was?

What other coach has gotten us to 10-6 by his second season? If Shanahan had done that people would be wetting themselves, not talking about whether or not he should be fired. 10-win seasons and playoff wins buys a coach a lot of time, even when the haven't already won three superbowls and have a bust in Canton.

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

Hire stud defensive coordinators? Otherwise, his offense stalled and arguably that regime mortgaged our future with all those trades and expensive signings, many of which didn't work out. He had two bad seasons, and two decent seasons -- they were below 500 in his tenure. Love Gibbs but don't see his 2nd tenure as a model to strive for here.

Things started clicking in 2005 and then he changed the offense calling in the 700 pg playbook. We were scoring points and I believe ready for a nice run in 2006 if we had left the offense alone and maybe added a piece here and there while transitioning to Campbell. Sure, Campbell didn't pan out but probably could have been sufficient for the team with a good line and Portis' and Betts' running. I really believe that we were ready for the next level after 2005, but Joe's love for Brunell, and need to want to play conservative in the second half, clouded his perception and blamed his playbook instead of Brunell on our offense sputtering late in 2005. It was a lame duck QB that caused us to bog down, not the playbook.

The slowdown conservative play hurt us worse in 2007. I don't know if Joe was afraid of appearing arrogant by scoring points in the second half, but that gameplan killed us. Very different from Joe 1.0 which had no problem sinking the knife in the heart in the second half. I have a copy of the Atlanta/Skins game from 1991 and, IIRC, the weather was nasty in the fourth quarter and Rypien was throwing 30 yarders downfield with a 49-17 lead while our defense was blitzing when Atlanta switched to a rookie QB named Favre.

[Botched]

Maybe Shanny is getting his *****y seasons out of the way early, instead of going up and down like we did in Gibbs 2.0

---------- Post added November-23rd-2011 at 11:53 AM ----------

I really believe that we were ready for the next level after 2005' date=' but Joe's love for Brunell, and need to want to play conservative in the second half, clouded his perception and blamed his playbook instead of Brunell on our offense sputtering late in 2005. It was a lame duck QB that caused us to bog down, not the playbook.[/quote']

This has always been my take on the 2005 season as well. We were a good QB away from being actual Super Bowl contenders that year. Everything else was in place. 2007 was pretty similar.

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

yep Schottenheimer should'a been given more than just a yr. I always thought tht. Danny boy was a bit trigger happy..............................

I think Danny coveted SOS and had probably wanted him in 2001, but it took a year to coax him out of college. Schott took a team with little talent and a very bad QB and took them on an 8-5 run after starting winless. Given the opportunity to draft some more of his guys, and Snyder leaving him alone, Schott could have made us a playoff team. People always bring up that he never could get to the big game but the two closest shots he had were a late 4th qtr loss to one of the best two minute QBs in history and Ernest Byner's butterfingers.

[First Colony]

Any personel guy knows that in order to be competitve you need a QB. It's been ignored within this organization for two seasons. It's hard to convince me that he will draft one next offseason given the fact that he will be under significant pressure to win next year, which often does not happen with a rookie QB.

I disagree somewhat with this. I know that everyone wants a "franchise" QB, but look at what Gibbs won with and what was consistent. It was the HOGS! He won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs and it was because of the Offensive line and running game. That's what the Redskins need-a better OL. Grossman was running for his life out there, and Dallas was constantly getting in the backfield to stop the run. It doesn't matter if you have Luck, Grossman, Brady or Manning-you need an O-Line.

So, what did Gibbs do differently? He focused on the Hogs.

[KCClybun]

Magic.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Magic.

[Destino]

the problem is we always get down early and have to abandon the running game. even when we do try to run, we get nothing. theres no point in running 30 times a game if your only gonna get 60 yards out of it. our running game just isnt clicking.

That would make sense if we were blown out but you don't abandon the running game until the 4th QTR and even then only if you are down two scores. This is a pass happy offense and unfortunately when you have turnover prone QB's that is a recipe for disaster.

[illone]

Gibbs had that special quality that guys just played as hard as they could for him because they didn't want to let him down.

Chris Samuels made mention to it once or twice in an interview.

He just rallied guys and allowed them to continue to believe in each other no matter what the circumstances were.

[2cents]

Listen to Charles Mann on the 91 America's Team dvd. He said that they could tell when Gibbs had been there all night putting the game plan together. He said if he was doing that, how could you as a player give anything less than 100%.

[sharkproof]

i don't know. it sure looked like our guys "fought their guts out" for shanahan on sunday.

Reading this thread just confirms the complete lack of patience that exists amongst many members here. This team has fought all season long and there has been minimal dissent considering the strong start. I don't think that players need or want to be coddled and when they are, you get behavior that is counter productive to winning. Belichek is a perfect example of this. He demands a great work ethic and and mental approach to the game and their record reflects that for the last decade. Here, many wants to win regardless of what past management/ownership moves have decimated the franchise, moreover, having no regard for the amount of injuries that have affected the offense across the board. The players started this season with a high amount of confidence about the teams prospects and Shanahan was the coach then, and though they haven't been winning they haven't stopped playing hard and have had tough attitudes throughout. Sure there will be a player here or there that might ***** or whine, but that has really been minimal. I am quite satisfied with how MS has initiated change. I was hoping for more wins this season regardless of the start, but am rooted in reality that has been the circumstances that have impacted the win / loss column.

[authentic]

Gibbs had his own system, he fit in players to fit his system, not the other way around.

Kinda sounds like Mike Shanahan doesn't it?

yes, it does... in addition to that. We often refer to 2005 as a success (which, looking back it - it was), but neglect the fact that we had to pull off 5 straight at the end to get in. Its not like we were a juggernaut for the entire season, with homefield advantage going into the playoffs.

---------- Post added November-23rd-2011 at 02:25 PM ----------

Reading this thread just confirms the complete lack of patience that exists amongst many members here. This team has fought all season long and there has been minimal dissent considering the strong start. I don't think that players need or want to be coddled and when they are, you get behavior that is counter productive to winning. Belichek is a perfect example of this. He demands a great work ethic and and mental approach to the game and their record reflects that for the last decade. Here, many wants to win regardless of what past management/ownership moves have decimated the franchise, moreover, having no regard for the amount of injuries that have affected the offense across the board. The players started this season with a high amount of confidence about the teams prospects and Shanahan was the coach then, and though they haven't been winning they haven't stopped playing hard and have had tough attitudes throughout. Sure there will be a player here or there that might ***** or whine, but that has really been minimal. I am quite satisfied with how MS has initiated change. I was hoping for more wins this season regardless of the start, but am rooted in reality that has been the circumstances that have impacted the win / loss column.

good post... i have the impression that they genuinely want to be here. Usually when you have players openly saying that they want to stay here. That means that they see the foundation being built and they want to reap the benefits of the sacrifices. Other years, we had too many players just wanting the paycheck and the DC party life.

[sharkproof]

That would make sense if we were blown out but you don't abandon the running game until the 4th QTR and even then only if you are down two scores. This is a pass happy offense and unfortunately when you have turnover prone QB's that is a recipe for disaster.

Our RB's aren't a A Foster, or even nearly as explosive as was Portis when healthy. Shanny's offense has always relied on quick explosive backs that have great vision and the ability to cut back into lanes created in the zone blocking scheme. Some of it is the line, but there a lot of times I see more than a crease but the back just doesn't see it. Not saying it's easy, but some backs have this talent much more than others.

[authentic]

the problem is we always get down early and have to abandon the running game. even when we do try to run, we get nothing. theres no point in running 30 times a game if your only gonna get 60 yards out of it. our running game just isnt clicking.

abandon the run game.. IMO, right now we don't have a run game to abandon... since the injuries to the Oline, we've had countless runs for lost yardage. I understand the concept of balance, and i wish it were more effective. But we can't "Run" just to clear our football conscience. If throwing the ball gives you a better chance to score TDs, then by all means, do so.

[Hollywood1127]

That's an easy question. Gibbs builds his system around the type of players that he has. Just look at our coaching staff back when Gibbs was the coach.

Head Coach: Joe Gibbs

Assistant Coach: Al Saunders

Defensive Coordinator: Greg Williams

Defensive Line Coach: Greg Blache

Offensive Line Coach: Joe Bugel

Special Teams Coach: Danny Smith

Danny Smith is the only one that is still here. But you can see where the strength was in personnel and players. Greg Williams took the Saints defense to the super bowl. Al Saunders is now the offensive coordinator/assistant coach of the Oakland Raiders. Joe Bugel however is retired. Greg Blache was promoted to defensive coordinator for the 2008 and 2009 season. In 2008 we defeated the Eagles twice with his defense. Danny Smith is still here and continues to do well on special teams. He was the one that spoke up for Brandon Banks and convinced Shanahan to keep him. The only thing Gibbs was missing was a good GM. Vinny, made things harder for him. If Vinny had given him O-Line players like Trent Williams, we would have had better success at the run game. We needed some adjustments at WR core and were in die hard need of a free safety. Possibly a CB to replace the struggling Carlos Rodgers.

[Destino]

Our RB's aren't a A Foster, or even nearly as explosive as was Portis when healthy. Shanny's offense has always relied on quick explosive backs that have great vision and the ability to cut back into lanes created in the zone blocking scheme. Some of it is the line, but there a lot of times I see more than a crease but the back just doesn't see it. Not saying it's easy, but some backs have this talent much more than others.

I'm not saying they are failing at running the ball... I'm saying they aren't trying to run the ball. No Redskins coach that Dan Snyder has hired has averaged less running attempts per game or more passing attempts per game than Shanahan. Not one. Spurrier's dynamic backfield featuring Canidate, Betts, and Cartwright got the ball more.

[Hollywood1127]

^ Very true. Given the fact that the Redskins are looking at a 3-13 season; do you think Gibbs would come back? I personally feel he could restore the team to 9-7 with the proper adjustments. One, the defense has to change back to the 4-3 defense. Two, we have better players now to address the holes we had in the 4-3. We now have players like Coefield, Bowen, Carriker, Jenkins, Golston, Scott, Orakpo, Kerrigan, D Hall, Buchanon and Atogwe. Atogwe is a major improvement at free safety position, since Taylor died. As for the offense, we have player like Trent Williams, Jammal Brown, Maurice Hurt, Fred Davis, Jabar Gaffney, Donte Stallworth, Brandon Banks, Anthony Armstrong and much more. The QB spot is still questionable but that could be addressed with a draft pick of Kellen Moore and signing a free agent.

As for coaching personnel, Gibbs could sign back Greg Blache as defensive coordinator/defensive line coach to run a 4-3. That's a quick fix with the players we have on defense. Joe Bugel would return now that we have people like Trent Williams and Jammal Brown. Special teams has never been better with Danny Smith and the installment of Brandon Banks. Wide Receiver coaching seems decent with Kennen McCardell. And we have a much better GM with Bruce Allen. What more would Gibbs need?

[2cents]

Folks....Gibbs is gone and never coming back. Please deal with it. We are running a 3-4 and still getting all the pieces in place. Please deal with it. We are working on the O-line and getting a QB next year. Please deal with it. You can't fix years of bad decisions in one. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend.

[Hollywood1127]

Folks....Gibbs is gone and never coming back. Please deal with it. We are running a 3-4 and still getting all the pieces in place. Please deal with it. We are working on the O-line and getting a QB next year. Please deal with it. You can't fix years of bad decisions in one. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend.

Because a lot of us feel that Mike Shanahan is going to be released after this season. You do know that his Sunday we play Seattle and that's the last possible game we are winning. The rest of the 5 are straight loses. That's going to be Mike Shanahan at 3-13, with a record worst than Jim Zorn and Steve Spurrier. Personally, I don't feel Dan Snyder will trust anyone else after this stint with Mike Shanahan and Kyle. Gibbs still has a good mind for coaching and acts as a consultant for the Redskins. We have a lot of talented players, right now so he wouldn't have to do nearly as much work as he did when he first came back. All he needs to do is implement his system and make the proper adjustments at defense.

If we keep Shanahan we will only get worst. How did we go from 6-10 to 3-13. 3-13 is the record we will most likely have at the end of the season.

[pjfootballer]

Folks....Gibbs is gone and never coming back. Please deal with it. We are running a 3-4 and still getting all the pieces in place. Please deal with it. We are working on the O-line and getting a QB next year. Please deal with it. You can't fix years of bad decisions in one. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend.

Agree. For all the posts in here saying Gibbs was a patient coach, the fans are really impatient. You can see the 3-4 playing better this year, than last year with the new personnel we brought in. Despite losing, you can still see the players playing hard and not playing out the string like the year Zorn was fired. I for one loved Gibbs 1, loved that Gibbs came back to try and help the franchise he loved, but honestly I do not want to see Gibbs 3. Let's let that ship sail and move on. I swear to god this fanbase loves to live in the 80s. They want our current offense, defense and team to resemble anything Redskins from the 80s. They want a reincarnation of the Hogs. They want the Fun Bunch and the Smurfs. That is ancient history. While it's nice to remember those times every once in a while, you have to let go of the past and embrace the future.

---------- Post added November-23rd-2011 at 03:57 PM ----------

Because a lot of us feel that Mike Shanahan is going to be released after this season. You do know that his Sunday we play Seattle and that's the last possible game we are winning. The rest of the 5 are straight loses. That's going to be Mike Shanahan at 3-13, with a record worst than Jim Zorn and Steve Spurrier. Personally, I don't feel Dan Snyder will trust anyone else after this stint with Mike Shanahan and Kyle. Gibbs still has a good mind for coaching and acts as a consultant for the Redskins. We have a lot of talented players, right now so he wouldn't have to do nearly as much work as he did when he first came back. All he needs to do is implement his system and make the proper adjustments at defense.

If we keep Shanahan we will only get worst. How did we go from 6-10 to 3-13. 3-13 is the record we will most likely have at the end of the season.

We played a good game last Sunday. So to say we can only beat Seattle (who by the way is better than us and we don't play well in Seattle) s disingenuous. Minnesota, NY Jets and even a game against either the Giants or Eagles (we play well in Philly for some reason) are winnable games. That's 4 out of 6. And who cares if we go 3-13. Snyder knows the fanbase will not put up with him firing Shanahan. He has to let him have his 5 years or he knows his reputation will go back in the dumper. Sometimes things have to get worse, before they get better. We were 6-10 with a fairly veteran team last year. The team age has gone from around 31-30 yr avg to about 26-27 avg this year. We're playing alot of younger players (Kerrigan, Riley, Gomes, Hurt, Helu, Paul, Paulson and now possibly Royster). You can't really compare last year with this year. Two different teams. Now, if we finish (for arguments sake) 4-12 this year and next year we come back with the same core and lay a 2-14 egg, then I think you have something.

[Hollywood1127]

And let me give me 2 cents on this 3-4 defense. Currently it's won us 1 game in the NFC EAST division this season. Last season, it beat Philly because Michael Vick went down the first time we played them. But remember what happened on Monday Night Football? The Eagles came back with a healthy Michael Vick and put up franchise records. Now let's move on to this season. We've beaten the Giants once, lost to Dallas twice and got embarrassed by Philly. Giants were an easy game because they had 6 starters out. We lost to Dallas the first time because of that 0 coverage blitz play that we did twice in a row. We lost to them the second time because of injuries and we still have problems in this 3-4. As for Philly, we will lose to Philly again because Andy Reid, Vick, Jackson and Celek are not going to fall for that 3-4 ever.

Now let's revert back to the recent years of the 4-3. Our last decent season was 2008, where we beat Philly twice in the 4-3 defense. In 2009 we sucked but the defense we still on point. Offense was the problem that season. Over all we are a much better 4-3 defense team with the players we have. We would be even astonishing now, given the fact that we have Orakpo and Kerrigan. Both of them would be unstoppable DE's but for some reason we have them as LB's. They've made plays, but their true strength is in the 4-3.

[MCnDaHouse]

Joe Gibbs came back and inherited a team (with no offense to the players from back then) that was destroyed by Spurrier and Snyder and company. It was a disjointed team with the wrong parts. He found a way to mold it and somehow got it in the playoffs. Look what his NASCAR teams have done. Multiple championships with different drivers. His concern for family and missing out on that quality time that cannot be replaced led him to step down. If not for that who knows what we would have accomplished by now. Especially if we have a real GM like we do now.

That said, Shanahan also inherited a mess. No offensive line, no defensive line and no Quarterback. You cannot fix that overnight. I am willing to be patient and give him and Bruce Allen time to right this ship. I think they are on the right track. We're still missing some key pieces on offense and defense but I think they can find those and get things turned around.

MC