Just wishing for a little realism about our Roster and this year

[ZRagone]

Reading this board in the past few weeks it has severely made me wonder if many of the fans were around during this off season, or heck even watched this team in the last 2 or 3 years. The complaints going on for most of the year seem to me as being based off a fantasy rather than the reality. And the reality is this roster.

Mike Shanahan has had roughly two off seasons with this roster now. Prior to him coming on the talent on this roster was severely lacking, our age was ridiculously trending upwards, and our cap numbers were horrible. We are now significantly under the cap, have unloaded a number of problematic contracts, and begun to rebuild our talent base. Are we where we need to be? Absolutely not. But to expect us to be is ridiculous.

Over the past two seasons Shanahan has managed to acquire through draft and free agency a number of decent and at least quality, if not great, starters. At the beginning of the year our O-Line was playing pretty well and far better than in the past 3 years. Some analysis that routinely watch the NFC East were even suggesting Kory was having a probowl year and Montgomery was the playing the best ball as a center in the division. Hightower, while not lighting things up, was providing an all around value as a running back and combining him and the line wore down defenses to a point where Helu and Torain were putting up very nice numbers in 2nd halves. Our receiving game was improving, as Fred Davis was making contributions due to the difficulties of defenses having to contend with him and Cooley on the field as a TE. Our offense moved the ball and more important CONTROLLED the ball and while it was still having red zone issues, that aided our defense keeping them fresh. That freshness lead to a much improved pressure game that had us tied for tops in the league on sacks.

Then the wheels came off. Injuries to Darrel Young removed our two TE set that was working well for us as Cooley moved to FB. Injuries to Trent and Kory took away two of our best O-Linemen and moved another of our best O-Line out of his best position, decimating our best sign of our line. Injuries to Cooley and Moss have significantly damaged our receiving game. And the loss of Hightower damages both the running game and the passing game. All that combined has turned the time of possession battle 180 degrees from where it was early in the year, leaving our defense tired and vulnerable.

Some people here, and in the media, are incredulous of the Shanahan’s and the teams for this. They state “Every team has injuries, you have to have quality depth. Look at Green Bay last year! Look at the Colts a few years back! Look at the Giants this year”. However, they fail to notice a large difference between Green Bay, the Colts, the Giants, and Us. The first three are perennial playoff contenders over the past 5 years or longer, who have been building for some time. We, frankly, are not.

To expect that in 2 years Shanahan was going to take an untalented and old roster and give us a roster where we had not only quality starters across the board but quality backups that could easily be starters is not just unrealistic but borderline ignorant. Yes, GOOD teams recover from injuries in the NFL to still have a good season. However, rarely do average or bad teams respond to injuries in that way. For anyone to honestly suggest we were one of the GOOD teams of the league, and not average at best, going into this year would’ve been foolish. We simply weren’t.

The reason people began to think we could’ve possibly been a good team is a testament to the job Shanahan and Allen had done with picking up some pieces this year. They put together a first team unit that, when healthy, was VERY competitive. However, they’ve not had the time nor ability at this point to put together a full 53 man roster that fits that bill. But they can, and they will, IF the Owner gives them the time to do it.

We went into this year with Beck and Grossman because frankly there was no better alternative. There was no one Shanahan loved in the draft as a QB where as I believe there are a few in this years draft that he does. Rather than reach on one last year, when we didn’t have any parts, Shanahan choose to make the most of his picks to try and get parts and wait a year. So this leaves us with our QB situation this year. For all those mad about Beck and Grossman I ask you this….

Who was available that would’ve been better?

Two 1sts for a Carson Palmer, who likely wouldn’t have been traded early on anyways because of the questions regarding how good Andy Dalton would be? Trading picks for a Kyle Orton who can’t even start over Tim Tebow? Vince Young, a man ran out of Tennessee and whose latest bit of action was so bad it caused a likely concussed Mike Vick to rush back onto the field? Matt Moore? Trent Edwards? Shaun Hill? Are any of those really substantially better than Beck or Grossman who at least had some experience in the system? There wasn’t a better option TO go with than those two for this year.

Our roster, prior to Shanahan, was in shambles. A full turnover of a roster from a BAD team to a GOOD team is not going to be a two year process unless you become very, very lucky. Let’s be realistic in the view of the injuries we’ve suffered and the likely quality of our backups, the effects that’s going to have on this team, and what we should do with these coaches. Don’t take the first four games as an absolute anomaly but rather a window into what is potentially in store for us in the future. We are rebuilding folks, and I know that is a foreign and alien concept to us that follow this team, but it’s what a bad team HAS to do to have any hope of longevity at the top. We’re doing it the right way if you look at the details rather than simply the immediate results. The results may look similar to what we’ve been seeing, but the details are showing an entirely different story and will lead us to a whole new destination if we follow through.

[skinzwiz]

I fully agree with you. This team was pathetic last year. This year they have been able to compete in every game except the last against the Bills. With a healthy roster, this team is a challenge to beat, but injuries are detrimental to this team.

[Skinzfever2010]

I agree with everything except the roster being in total shambles. He inherited a top 10 defense and made it worse. He knew the offense was bad and its bad. He gets some slack on the qb thing.

[braindx]

Nah man not true at all! You're making too much sense for it to be true!

[NattyBo]

Fully agree with the OP.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 11:11 AM ----------

I agree with everything except the roster being in total shambles. He inherited a top 10 defense and made it worse. He knew the offense was bad and its bad. He gets some slack on the qb thing.

Top 10 in what, yards allowed? So what. That defense broke at every key moment and was never dominant, and was terribly, terribly old, to boot.

[Destino]

How many years have to pass before I am allowed to point out who picks the players? One or two more?

(keep in mind Shanny has 3 left)

[USS Redskins]

I disagree about the talent level on this team... I dont believe there is one receiver on the active roster that would start anywhere in the league. The Cornerbacks are horrible and the safeties make one big hit a game. The LB's cant stop the run and cant cover. The Oline is bad with zero depth. The QB's belong in the UFL. The RB's are injury prone and may be good with a good line.

I really think fans would be fine with a bad year for this team, (in year 2 (really year 10) of a rebuild) if that rookie QB was under center learning the game and the team on the whole showing some fight but they chose to have a rookie Linebacker learning the ropes, rather than a rookie QB of the future. Huge mistake that is setting the team back further.

The other issue is that in year 2 there has been no progress at all and all signs of regression - they are a worse team in Nov 2011 than they were in Sept 2010 and a Far worse offense. This tells me the decisions to this point (with no growth and the team playing lifeless football for the last few weeks) have all been wrong.

Hope I am wrong but I see this team imploding further, just as in years past. Its depressing as hell but its just what Redskins teams do.

[Aghar]

I somewhat agree with the OP but need to point out one glaring reality of my own. When we do get a QB in here, hopefully this offseason, and next year we struggle yet again do we sit back and listen to the same old excuses about "surrounding him with the right talent", "it takes time to learn this system", "he is only a rookie and will eventually get it"? Should that be acceptable because I can almost guarantee that is exactly what is in our future?

The main problem here is that there has been zero on field "progress". None. The Offense looks the same, if not worse. The Defense looked good at times but still seems to struggle. ( Although any defense would struggle to a point with an offense like ours ). You can talk about how its a long process, and I would certainly agree with that. The culture of mistakes, on and off the field, around this franchise is well documented over that last decade. However, eventually when the new GM and Coach are in place for a certain period of time and start to bring in "their guys" that fit "their system" they will eventually need to show progress or be held accountable for the lackthereof. I'm not a kneejerker saying we need to throw in the towel on Shanny and Co by any means. I like what I see in certain areas, but eventually the play on the field we need to get better. It needs to just pass the eye test where fans can say, "Ah...We lost but I see the team is headed in the right direction. That's something to be optimistic about." After a 3 game losing streak, and the last game being one of the worst played in recent memory you will be hard pressed to find that same optimistic reaction from any fan, let alone on ES.

[DC9]

It's good to see that the OP was like me, and did NOT catch the "itis."

One thing that I will focus on is how the Redskins coaches develop the talent that is already here. I think we have plenty of it, and I think it's plenty raw. I would like to see guys like Paul and Hankerson getting some confidence by running slant routes. I would like to see guys like Helu get more screen passes and get more reps out of the "I formation."

I think there is plenty of talent on the defense, I just have an issue with the scheme and the depth. The corners have issues and I think Josh Wilson is a good nickel corner on most teams and the only one worth keeping.

But, with all of the issues we are having and all of the youth we have, it would make it more tolerable if we could see in-game development.

HAIL!

[Brotherz]

Really well put together thread and I tend to agree with much of what you are saying. That being said I am bothered by the following:

1) Orakpo: He's very good. I really thought he'd be great. He's not. He's not Demarcus Ware. He's not Clay Mathews. He's may not even be Von Miller. He disappears in big games (see the Eagles game) when he HAS to be the edge in the game. He gets turned around on misdirection and doesn't disengage quickly from his blocker. everyone is held. You think they don't hold Ware? The difference is getting off the hold.

2) Landry - He's a shell of what he was last year and it appears the injuries may have short cut his career or at best limited his effectiveness. Again he's good. Not great. I expected great.

3) Otogwe isn't working out as planned. He's just another guy at FS who isn't making an impact. And he's 30. And he's injury prone apparently.

4) Dhall and Wilson - They are middle of the pack corners and it appears this rebuild will require one if not two new corners.

5) Barnes, Westbrook (ie the young corners) - They are bad. They aren't mediocre. They are bad.

6) Perry Riley - Not working out.

7) London - God bless him. Wasted on this team. He will never play for a winner if we don't mercifully trade him to a contender. And where is his replacement coming from?

8) Trent Williams - I know what a top 5 pick at left tackle is supposed to look like because I saw Chris Samuels play. He's not Chris Samuels. He's injury prone and sloppy with technique albeit athletic. He's not a perrenial pro bowler. Far from it. You NEED a perrenial pro bowler (an a durable one) to be your left tackle when you draft him at 3 overall). Its a miss.

9) Brown - Bad due diligence. He's done. He's better than Stephone Heyer. Yipee. He's just not good enough. It might be injury related but even if it is, I don't care. We needed to know that before we traded for him and had him man the right tackle position.

10) Chester -He's "ok". But is that what we were going for when we signed him to that deal? Ok?

11) Hankerson, Paul, Armstrong, Moss, Gaffney, Stallworth (ie every damn receiever on this team) - They are God awful. No separation. No Speed. Poor route running. Poor effort. Receivers are popping up out of the draft class all over the league and making contributions. Our suck. Plain and simple. We have a DIRE need for a real reciever (or 3!!). Its not all on shanny but from Devin Thomas, to Malcom Kelly, to Niles Paul, to Hankerson we have just been striking out left and right with these recievers. Yea, I get the QB problem and I am sure we are going to address that immediately in the draft this year. But it would have been really nice (and in my mind achievable) to build a decent WR corps for the kid before he got here. We wasted picks and money and roster spots on guys who can't play. Theese rookies all look like busts. Moss looks old. Yea, we have 1 and 1/2 tight ends that are strong players - neither of them were picked up by this regime and Cooley could have fetched us something last year or the year before if they thought Fred was gonna be the real deal. We don't need two strong TE's when we so badly lack talent everywhere else. A theme I see is our inability to get rid of guys with one good year left. Dockery could have fetched us something before we announced to the league that he is useless to us. Same with Andre Carter coming off an 11 sack season two years ago. Same now with Fletcher and Cooley. I LOVE London but we could have gotten rid of him this year plugged in Fox and sucked as bad as we do right now. He could be on another team WAY more deserving of his talent and we could have a 3rd or 4th rounder in our pocket to help us trade up for the QB we want next year. and Don't even get me started on the Mcnabb trade.

My point is, OP is right about alot but only because he is ignoring some stuff too.

Overall I agree with the arguments about depth and not being able to get that deep that quickly in draft and FA. BUT, our starters aren't that good either.

[paloosa]

I agree with the OP except the reason why people here are tired and impatient is due to our consistent rebuilding from year to year. Shanahan will never get rid of all of the roster that he inherited because that would make him get rid of Moss, Cooley, Fletcher, Landry, and many other players he likes but maybe that needs to be done in order to totally cleanse the roster of those guys that have gone through the painful years of losing. But is it too much to ask a guy that is a backup on an NFL roster to perform and do his job? That backup needs to prepare for his opportunity to play and start. Hall of Famers and star players don't just settle for a roster spot. They take have exceptional work ethic and make most of the opportunities given to them. That goes to anyone at any position. So don't give me that we don't have any talent on the roster because if they are that bad then why are they on our roster or any NFL roster for thast matter? Giving these guys a pass because they weren't 1st rounders and are mainly lower level draft picks or UDFA's. Tom Brady, Walter Payton, Jerry Rice and many other Hall of Famers and great players have been lower round draft picks or UDFA's and succeeded. So although I agree we don't have the roster to compete for championships but the talent isn't that bad that they should get shut out by Buffalo. That is purely on the coaching staff and nothing else. Bad game plans and no attempt to adjust the game plans are just as bad as the players not performing.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 12:52 PM ----------

Really well put together thread and I tend to agree with much of what you are saying. That being said I am bothered by the following:

1) Orakpo: He's very good. I really thought he'd be great. He's not. He's not Demarcus Ware. He's not Clay Mathews. He's may not even be Von Miller. He disappears in big games (see the Eagles game) when he HAS to be the edge in the game. He gets turned around on misdirection and doesn't disengage quickly from his blocker. everyone is held. You think they don't hold Ware? The difference is getting off the hold.

2) Landry - He's a shell of what he was last year and it appears the injuries may have short cut his career or at best limited his effectiveness. Again he's good. Not great. I expected great.

3) Otogwe isn't working out as planned. He's just another guy at FS who isn't making an impact. And he's 30. And he's injury prone apparently.

4) Dhall and Wilson - They are middle of the pack corners and it appears this rebuild will require one if not two new corners.

5) Barnes, Westbrook (ie the young corners) - They are bad. They aren't mediocre. They are bad.

6) Perry Riley - Not working out.

7) London - God bless him. Wasted on this team. He will never play for a winner if we don't mercifully trade him to a contender. And where is his replacement coming from?

8) Trent Williams - I know what a top 5 pick at left tackle is supposed to look like because I saw Chris Samuels play. He's not Chris Samuels. He's injury prone and sloppy with technique albeit athletic. He's not a perrenial pro bowler. Far from it. You NEED a perrenial pro bowler (an a durable one) to be your left tackle when you draft him at 3 overall). Its a miss.

9) Brown - Bad due diligence. He's done. He's better than Stephone Heyer. Yipee. He's just not good enough. It might be injury related but even if it is, I don't care. We needed to know that before we traded for him and had him man the right tackle position.

10) Chester -He's "ok". But is that what we were going for when we signed him to that deal? Ok?

11) Hankerson, Paul, Armstrong, Moss, Gaffney, Stallworth (ie every damn receiever on this team) - They are God awful. No separation. No Speed. Poor route running. Poor effort. Receivers are popping up out of the draft class all over the league and making contributions. Our suck. Plain and simple. We have a DIRE need for a real reciever (or 3!!). Its not all on shanny but from Devin Thomas, to Malcom Kelly, to Niles Paul, to Hankerson we have just been striking out left and right with these recievers. Yea, I get the QB problem and I am sure we are going to address that immediately in the draft this year. But it would have been really nice (and in my mind achievable) to build a decent WR corps for the kid before he got here. We wasted picks and money and roster spots on guys who can't play. Theese rookies all look like busts. Moss looks old. Yea, we have 1 and 1/2 tight ends that are strong players - neither of them were picked up by this regime and Cooley could have fetched us something last year or the year before if they thought Fred was gonna be the real deal. We don't need two strong TE's when we so badly lack talent everywhere else. A theme I see is our inability to get rid of guys with one good year left. Dockery could have fetched us something before we announced to the league that he is useless to us. Same with Andre Carter coming off an 11 sack season two years ago. Same now with Fletcher and Cooley. I LOVE London but we could have gotten rid of him this year plugged in Fox and sucked as bad as we do right now. He could be on another team WAY more deserving of his talent and we could have a 3rd or 4th rounder in our pocket to help us trade up for the QB we want next year. and Don't even get me started on the Mcnabb trade.

My point is, OP is right about alot but only because he is ignoring some stuff too.

Overall I agree with the arguments about depth and not being able to get that deep that quickly in draft and FA. BUT, our starters aren't that good either.

You know you describe these players as if they are just not NFL players because they are not doing what you want them to do. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe they are doing what their coaches are telling them to do? Could it be that they are being poorly coached at these skill positions? What qualifies Keenan McCardell as a good WR coach? or Slowick as a good DB coach? McCardell was hired to make these guys better but has little impact on developing WR's. he may have played the game but his teaching methods haven't been productive. So don't tell me that it is completely the players fault because maybe the scheme they are running is not working as designed. Haslett is another coach that has a bad track record as a DC or just a coach period. He is no Jim Johnson or Spagnola.

[ZRagone]

How many years have to pass before I am allowed to point out who picks the players? One or two more?

(keep in mind Shanny has 3 left)

You could do that now. Drill shanny for the bad moves he's made, like the McNabb trade for instance.

But was our starting line last year better than our line 2 years ago? Was our starting line this year better than the one from a year ago? Is Moss, Gaffney, Armstrong better than Moss, Gallaway, Thomas better than Moss, Thomas, Randel El? Is Orakpo, Kerrigan, Fletcher, and Rockery better than the same with Lorenzo there. Is Atogwe and Landry better than Moore and Landry? Was Helu, Torain, and Hightower better than Portis, Johnson, Williams which was better than Portis, Betts, Cartwight?

Is our depth there? No. Is our Starters probowl level great people? No. But I don't think we can honestly not say that over the past two to three years there's been improvements made with regards to our various units. STAGGERING improvements? Perhaps not. But a definite movement of more talent and younger.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 01:17 PM ----------

I disagree about the talent level on this team... I dont believe there is one receiver on the active roster that would start anywhere in the league. The Cornerbacks are horrible and the safeties make one big hit a game. The LB's cant stop the run and cant cover. The Oline is bad with zero depth. The QB's belong in the UFL. The RB's are injury prone and may be good with a good line.

That's just not true. Jabar Gaffney was just starting last year and had a good year, and Santana Moss was courted by another team that likely would've started him in the Bears.

Our cornerbacks are far from great, but "horrible" is ridiculous. Go look at the Rams or New Englands corners over the course of the season so far and objectively compare them to ours.

Landry, since coming back, has made a few big plays and more htan just with "big hits. Atogwe has, at the worst, played solidly.

One of our LB's play largely helped win us a game and is arguably a top 10 rookie right now, Orakpo is having some growing pains but still getting solid pressure, Rocky's looked far better for the majority of this year then he did last year (sorry, one really bad game doesn't cancel that out when talking rationally), and Fletcher has had issues with covering primarily this week with a somewhat gimpy hamstring.

Our O-Line was giving us one of the best times of posession in the league when healthy and had people playing at levels getting some analysists talking about potential probowl before injury.

Torain is the only "injury" prone guy. Hightowers "prone" nature was fumbles, of which he didn't have any this year. Since getting healthy, Torian's seeming s tayed healthy.

Our QB's are pretty crappy. But again, I ask you...what free agent would've been significantly better? We could've drafted, but hindsight is 20/20 with someone like a Dalton where as people around our pick like Gabbert is looking somewhat shaky. Do we want a coach drafting a QB he doesn't believe in simply because we need to try something, or is it better to go with something managable, fix other parts of the team, and go for someone in the next draft where there are a number that you DO like?

Our team isn't great. Our teams starters however weren't horrible. They were an average to even above average starting unit that could've been competitive largely due to what Shanahan has bulit. But you're not going from a bad team with an old and depleated roster to a Packer's or Giants esque team over a year or two.

[Destino]

You could do that now. Drill shanny for the bad moves he's made, like the McNabb trade for instance.

But was our starting line last year better than our line 2 years ago? Was our starting line this year better than the one from a year ago? Is Moss, Gaffney, Armstrong better than Moss, Gallaway, Thomas better than Moss, Thomas, Randel El? Is Orakpo, Kerrigan, Fletcher, and Rockery better than the same with Lorenzo there. Is Atogwe and Landry better than Moore and Landry? Was Helu, Torain, and Hightower better than Portis, Johnson, Williams which was better than Portis, Betts, Cartwight?

Is our depth there? No. Is our Starters probowl level great people? No. But I don't think we can honestly not say that over the past two to three years there's been improvements made with regards to our various units. STAGGERING improvements? Perhaps not. But a definite movement of more talent and younger.

We'll know if those improvements are "on paper" or on the field at the end of the season. That's all that really matter when it's all said and done. I agree with you that player decisions have improved but unless the results are there to support it what does it matter?

[USS Redskins]

Gaffney is ok but not a #1, 2 or 3... Moss will not be on the game day active Roster for or a few weeks, so I skipped him... the others are invisible.

Landry - outside of a few games, I have never witnessed the great player that other fans have told me about... maybe one day I will see it.

LB's - outside of Fletcher, they are all underachieving and getting absolutely Torched

OLine - way way way overrated... sure the injury on the left hurts but the rushing game has disappeared as quickly as it arrived - if Trent returns I still am guessing status quo there...

Torain at full health is a one game a year guy, it looks like - by week 11 he will be on IR anyway

QB - Stevie Wonder was calling for a new QB in the draft - I would rather be losing and trying out a young QB than two clowns you know stink... Without a QB and last years debacle this decision to stake reputations on GrossBeck has set this franchise back again.

We can argue about talent all day but the fact is they just arent winning and they appeared, to me at least, to give up the last few weeks....that is a coaching problem big time....

I will grant you that they are getting no support from the horrbile OC play calling and god awful DC schemes - so mabye they are talented like you say but I think the compass is broken on the stay the course motto.

[CovingtonCommander]

7) London - God bless him. Wasted on this team. He will never play for a winner if we don't mercifully trade him to a contender. And where is his replacement coming from?

He won a SB wth the Rams back in 1999 LOL.

[ZRagone]

We'll know if those improvements are "on paper" or on the field at the end of the season. That's all that really matter when it's all said and done. I agree with you that player decisions have improved but unless the results are there to support it what does it matter?

Results tell more than just wins and losses.

The results that happened on the field while we had our fully healthy line told me, undoubtably, it was improved compared to lats year. Look at things like time of possession, running yards, sacks, etc not to mention just the eyeball test. The results that are happening on the field are telling me our OLB's are better than last years and that Rocky has improved. The results on the field have told me we have a MUCH better running back core than we did 2 years ago.

Not all results are just "wins and losses", not unless you're in an immediete gratification win now type of mindset...and that's the wrong mindset for a rebuild.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 04:24 PM ----------

Gaffney is ok but not a #1, 2 or 3... Moss will not be on the game day active Roster for or a few weeks, so I skipped him... the others are invisible.

Gaffney was a #2 just last year. He could be a #2, and definitely a #3, on a number of teams

Landry - outside of a few games, I have never witnessed the great player that other fans have told me about... maybe one day I will see it.

Gonna just have to agree to disagree here I guess.

LB's - outside of Fletcher, they are all underachieving and getting absolutely Torched

So you think Rocky is playing the same or worse than last year? Because if not then he's not under achieving. He may not be good, you could argue that, but he's not underachieving if he's improved from last year when in reality most people expected him to be cut all together and not be able to adapt to the 3-4.

Kerrigan, the 16th pick, is arguably a top 10 rookie right now and one of the better defensive rookies in the league. Unless you were expecting him to produce like a top 5 pick, I'm unsure how you can say he's underachieving. He's caused fumbles, gotten an interception, scored a touchdown, multiple sacks, multiple tackles for losses...

OLine - way way way overrated... sure the injury on the left hurts but the rushing game has disappeared as quickly as it arrived - if Trent returns I still am guessing status quo there...

Most people are seemingly to call it "horrible", and even those complimenting it are saying it was performing decently to "well"...so I'm wondering how bad you must think they were playing ot be way way way overrated. We ran the ball well throughout the first four games, had two running backs with top 15 yards per carry. Were top 5 in the league I believe in regards of time of possession. Yeah, shocker, the rushing game has disappeared as quickly as it arrived....when the side we rushed to the majority of the time completely imploded with injury.

Torain at full health is a one game a year guy, it looks like - by week 11 he will be on IR anyway

Torain's injured again?

QB - Stevie Wonder was calling for a new QB in the draft - I would rather be losing and trying out a young QB than two clowns you know stink... Without a QB and last years debacle this decision to stake reputations on GrossBeck has set this franchise back again.

So you'd rather have the coaching staff reach on a QB not worth the draft pick we had and they had no confidence in just so we could "Try out" a young QB rather than going with a place holder for a year that we wouldn't have likely done anything in even WITH a young QB and taking a QB in the next years draft that is widely regarded as far deeper and more talented?

Yeah, that's why I don't listen to blind musicians for drafting advise.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I really don't see any influx of talent. Where is our Sean Lee? Where is our Dez Bryant? Where is the guy where you say, "Wow...he is special." The only guy who remotely looks special to me is Kerrigan.

I feel like Shanahan has gotten us younger with young mediocrity.

[Brotherz]

You know you describe these players as if they are just not NFL players because they are not doing what you want them to do. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe they are doing what their coaches are telling them to do? Could it be that they are being poorly coached at these skill positions? What qualifies Keenan McCardell as a good WR coach? or Slowick as a good DB coach? McCardell was hired to make these guys better but has little impact on developing WR's. he may have played the game but his teaching methods haven't been productive. So don't tell me that it is completely the players fault because maybe the scheme they are running is not working as designed. Haslett is another coach that has a bad track record as a DC or just a coach period. He is no Jim Johnson or Spagnola.

I don't recall saying it was all the players fault. What I said was they aren't working out. That's the regime's fault. I don't really disagree with you here. I have no reason to believe that Mcardell knows what he is doing. Is your theory though that Hankerson, Moss, Stallworth, Gaffney, Armstrong etc are great receivers if they had a better coach? Ok, fire Mcardell and get the damn right coach in here then. I'd be thrilled if that was true. I don't know if I buy it though. In my experience there are two kinds of coaches in this league, those with great players and FORMER-coaches. Players play. Slowik was a defensive coordinator for four teams, and won a superbowl as a secondary coach with Dallas. I don't maybe he is a problem but it appears that the problem is that Otogwe is made of glass and Landry is a shell of himself. He had 19 tackles a game under Slowik last year didn't he?

Again, I am not necessarily disagreeing. The OP's point was that we need to have perspective and it takes time, and we can't turn a 53 man roster around in a year etc. I agree with many of his points too. My point was if you look a little closer there are some current concerns. Its not just that we don't have all the pieces yet. Its that we are missing on some pieces too. That is going to make this entire process even slower. I think we may need to move Trent to right tackle eventually and go back to the drawing board on the left tackle. That would really suck. I think we might need to replace chester sooner than we had hoped. I know we need receivers even though we have seemingly drafted and signed like 10 in the last three years. That's a problem. And its not a problem with time to get the job done as the OP suggests. Its a problem with picking personnel suited to the scheme and to your point, to these coaches or vice versa.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 06:22 PM ----------

He won a SB wth the Rams back in 1999 LOL.

You're absolutely right. I meant AGAIN in the future. He is playing so well and at such a high level. I love his guts, durability, determination and leadership. I feel for him man. Seeing him in that Bills game made me mad FOR him. I love the guy. I would never get rid of him as a fan of the skins but honestly, we don't deserve that dude.

[bedlamVR]

Gaffney is ok but not a #1, 2 or 3... Moss will not be on the game day active Roster for or a few weeks, so I skipped him... the others are invisible.

Landry - outside of a few games, I have never witnessed the great player that other fans have told me about... maybe one day I will see it.

LB's - outside of Fletcher, they are all underachieving and getting absolutely Torched

OLine - way way way overrated... sure the injury on the left hurts but the rushing game has disappeared as quickly as it arrived - if Trent returns I still am guessing status quo there...

Torain at full health is a one game a year guy, it looks like - by week 11 he will be on IR anyway

QB - Stevie Wonder was calling for a new QB in the draft - I would rather be losing and trying out a young QB than two clowns you know stink... Without a QB and last years debacle this decision to stake reputations on GrossBeck has set this franchise back again.

We can argue about talent all day but the fact is they just arent winning and they appeared, to me at least, to give up the last few weeks....that is a coaching problem big time....

I will grant you that they are getting no support from the horrbile OC play calling and god awful DC schemes - so mabye they are talented like you say but I think the compass is broken on the stay the course motto.

Oh this itis is just getting boring and a lot of it is hating just for hating sake . If you cannot see Landry is at least a good player who is really maturing then you aint using your eyes . Seriously who is this mysterious in the box safety who never misses a tackle has 5 interceptions and sacks a game ? it isn't and never was Polamalu or any other SS you can mention . Landry has great range and amazing closing speed . One thing you have to say coming off injury he has not lost a thing . But he isn't balls out crazy and not going for the killer hit every play .

The LBs are underachieving and getting torched ? Really again who are these mysterious LBs who never miss a tackle never get beaten in pass protection - I think what we have is a very aggressive defensive co-coordinator and a Defensive line that is a little on the small size for a 3-4 DL that is getting worn down . (also missing a major cog in Jenkins)

The comment on the OL is really really laughable . Look at the first 3 games in the season look how the team was dominanting time of possession - you yourself say the injury hurts - yes loosing the LG for the season, LT for a bunch of games and had to move the C to LG . Yeah that kind of hurts . You then have to realise that the left hand side of the OL was the running side 65% of our successful runs went left in the first 4 games . Loosing that entire left side and the starting RB is going to effect the running game . You say that yourself then complain we have no running game .

Williams to me has looked better (more consistant this season than he has in previous seasons . He has strugled with some looks but I think he is was looking like he had taken a step forward in 2011 over the 2010 model .

I also know you didnt say this but people keep trotting out this stuppid - Hasslett inherited a top 10 defense and made it worse . He inherited a defense that "FEATURED" Conealius Griffin (33) Philip Daniels (36) and Renaldo Wynn (35) - We had the ineffective and fudeing with the coaches Haynesworth, the unmotivated Montogmery . The best players in the front 7 were Carter (30) Fletcher (34) and one bright young player in Orakpo . The LBs were Orakpo, Fletcher and a bunch of people you may never of heard of - and McIntosh .

The 4-3 D Hasslett had was good for a 4-12 record - they may have been highly ranked in the NFL statistically but that was based on yards . In terms of scoring - we got better - and we will get better still

[konga2145]

First of all he has not had 2 years because the first year don't count as he mainly is trying to see what he has. 2nd thing is we was given 5 years , It really irks me that some of the fans on extreme skins want their coach out before he even has a chance to evaluate. All you all do is complain about your team, who by way is in 2nd place 1 game behind bears, so if we suck i guess eagles sucked too, so if Eagles can suck eqarly and we suck now, maybe we will stop sucking and make our run when it counts, at end of year.

[Ghost of]

How many years have to pass before I am allowed to point out who picks the players? One or two more?

(keep in mind Shanny has 3 left)

Or the fact that Shanny decided to carry 35 wideouts and not enough quality OG help so that our up and comer at C, Montgomery, could STAY at Center. We basically, through having NOTHING at backup, weakened TWO spots on the team due to one injury.

[mi6]

The Skins have been poor talent evaluators. It's a shame that our scouting department haven't been able to find top flight talent that are real playmakers, and dominant in their respective position.

Hate saying this. Who would you rather Dez Bryant or Brandon Banks? DeMarcus Ware or Rocky McIntosh?

[glongest]

I agree with the OP except two things. Cooley was not contributing to the receiving game so losing him has not been the reason for the demise of our passing game. He may have been contributing to the running game because that went into the toilet about the same time but I rather think that is probably more because of losing the left side of the line. The second thing is that they had played pretty well until the Dallas game but that was a disaster and was before all of the injuries. Everyone said four months ago the problem with this team was going to be depth and boy has it come true in a hurry. I predict it will get worse before it gets better.

[prufRock]

I really don't see any influx of talent. Where is our Sean Lee? Where is our Dez Bryant? Where is the guy where you say' date=' "Wow...he is special." The only guy who remotely looks special to me is Kerrigan.

I feel like Shanahan has gotten us younger with young mediocrity.[/quote']

Agree with this completely. I can't say it's been an unmitigated disaster but the fact is, the roster has been solidified, not upgraded by leaps and bounds. I know it's still fairly early but so far, last year's draft haul looks somewhat ordinary (beyond Kerrigan).

I think most successful rebuilding programs eventually hit on either few late round gems or a franchise quarterback. The ones that only add solid mediocre talent wind up not be remembered.

I give Shanahan credit for basically scrapping and rebuilding the entire offensive line with just about nothing. The Jammal Brown trade isn't looking great now and Trent Williams hasn't exactly wowed yet but when they were all healthy I felt like they were better than what he inherited. Other than that and Kerrigan, I have to say that the returns have been pedestrian.

Still, as silly as it sounds, I'd rather be mediocre and young than mediocre and old....

[maskedsuperstar]

I agree with everything except the roster being in total shambles. He inherited a top 10 defense and made it worse. He knew the offense was bad and its bad. He gets some slack on the qb thing.

Inherited a top 10 defense that couldn't stop anybody. 0-6 in the division. Don't fool yourself.

---------- Post added November-3rd-2011 at 08:51 AM ----------

Still, as silly as it sounds, I'd rather be mediocre and young than mediocre and old....

Absolutely! If you build a team with young guys, expect losing. The winning will come later. Successful teams go through this. Build the team with the draft. On the bottom now, on the top later. Watch!! The Skins are doing it right. But somes fans want success now. Not happening.