CNN: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway; shooter fires at youth camp

[twa]

Exactly how I feel reading this thread.

Feel free, just don't whine if ya get corrected.

[Koala]

1) I have a fear of Islam?...news to me,and probably many of my friends....I do fear fundamentalists of all stripes,including my own faith

2) Poor thing...better toughen up

3) I recall them inviting us by their actions.(funny there are many in Libya fighting us,musta been the wrong mass).....we bend over backwards to accommodate and enable Islam...so drop the persecuted me routine

now that we just flung more BS :pfft:...... ya want to address whether the writer excused the murderers actions or encouraged them?

1) Okay, than just an obssession with it

2) Care to address the point that there is already of plenty of very free speech against muslims out there? Or would u rather just make more snarky comments

3) Invting by their action? LMAO.. Cute, I havent heard that one before, yall right-wingers are an entertaining bunch if nothing else. Anyhow, yeah you're right, we bend so far over backwards that we hardly batted an eye when muslim US citizens attempted to build an islamic cultural center with a prayer room inside it, blocks away from Ground Zero. Oh...wait.

In honesty, I dont think muslims are really being persecuted in the U.S in a systemic way or anything, but there is definitely a lot of tension and more than a small bit of hatred towards muslims out there.

As for addressing how the writer is excsuing the actions, look at jypaks post above, he said it better than I could have. To understand my point, just imagine the terrorist was muslim, and the writer was being anti-american. I have a feeling you would eb on here furious that the writer had for all intensive purposes, attempted to justify terrorism, even if he hadnt condoned the attack overtly in writing.

Or, you could just go a few pages back and see the exchange between Koolblue and MadMike. Thats another perfect illustration of my point.

[twa]

1) Obsession with Islam or it's adherents ....me?...perhaps you are just overly sensitive?

2) certainly their is free speech (on both sides) HERE....not so much in other places eh?

3) There was a 'en mass' call for help from the Kurds and Shia in Iraq,(do they not count like your Libyans?)and there can be no stronger call than the one from Afghanistan.

Where did the writer justify terrorism or excuse the murders EVEN overtly??????...your analogy( or jypaks) sucks

You want to know what makes me furious?....the killing of innocents....you can go back to the second page for MY view (even though I had a suspicion then it was not a Muslim attack)

[techboy]

So if it had been a Muslim extremist, would it be okay to blame Islam?

I suspect that most of the people now on the defensive about blaming conservativism would say yes, while most of the people claiming a valid link to conservatism would say no, though I am prepared for the inevitable deluge of individual denials.

It's about blaming conservatism, though, so that's different. Everybody switch!

Why don't we just blame the violent first person shooter video games?

Or maybe the Freemasons. Nobody likes the Freemasons.

[jpyaks3]

Where did the writer justify terrorism or excuse the murders EVEN overtly??????...your analogy( or jypaks) sucks

You want to know what makes me furious?....the killing of innocents....you can go back to the second page for MY view (even though I had a suspicion then it was not a Muslim attack)

My analogy was an imam using 9/11 to preach anti-americanism immediately after the attack. How is that a bad analogy? Those guys I quoted were using the attacks to say that the guy did a bad thing but his idea's are right and here is why, they are using the attack to launch into an anti-muslim, anti-multicultural, and anti-immigration tirade, exactly like an imam using 9/11 to launch into an anti-american tirade.

EDIT: For the record I am not blaming conservativism, I am blaming hate speech and a segment of the population that lives on building fear of others. Just like you can blame certain strains of Islamic imams for influencing terrorism.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

So if it had been a Muslim extremist, would it be okay to blame Islam?

It wasn't ok to blame Islam before this massacre lol...

Why don't we just blame the violent first person shooter video games?

Or maybe the Freemasons. Nobody likes the Freemasons.

:ols:...I blame Brunell. :mad:

[SkinsHokieFan]

So if it had been a Muslim extremist, would it be okay to blame Islam?

I suspect that most of the people now on the defensive about blaming conservativism would say yes, while most of the people claiming a valid link to conservatism would say no, though I am prepared for the inevitable deluge of individual denials.

It's about blaming conservatism, though, so that's different. Everybody switch!

Why don't we just blame the violent first person shooter video games?

Or maybe the Freemasons. Nobody likes the Freemasons.

We know I am not blaming conservatives

I am pinning this on the growing influence of the anti Muslim islamaphobic blogosphere that exists.

He cited Robert Spencer 64 times. Spoke of Geeret Wieders and many other whose primary objective and source of income is bashing Islam and Muslims. Pam Geller and Bat Ye'or. People who are famous because of their hate of Islam

Could you imagine the reaction if there were organizations called "Stop the Judiazation of America?"

While none may have ever directly called for violence, their extreme bigoted views, as mentioned in another article posted in this thread, provided that infrastructure for this terrible event to happen.

These guys aren't conservatives. They are bigoted haters

[Califan007 The Constipated]

We know I am not blaming conservatives

I am pinning this on the growing influence of the anti Muslim islamaphobic blogosphere that exists.

He cited Robert Spencer 64 times. Spoke of Geeret Wieders and many other whose primary objective and source of income is bashing Islam and Muslims. People who are famous because of their hate.

Could you imagine the reaction if there were organizations called "Stop the Judiazation of America?"

While none may have ever directly called for violence, their extreme bigoted views, as mentioned in another article posted in this thread, provided that infrastructure for this terrible event to happen.

These guys aren't conservatives. They are bigoted haters

I am willing to bet that NONE of the stuff you mentioned played any significant role. Lone nuts who go on a rampage never, EVER do so because they read or heard some angry, hate-fueled rhetoric...no matter how much they read or heard.

We'd be naive to think that if only the bloggers around the interwebz were less divisive and more tolerant, maybe none of this would have happened.

[Bang]

This is the type of thinking that gets middle-America wanting books and records banned when two emotionally troubled kids kill themselves in the woods and a Judas Priest CD is found in one of the kid's stereo.

I don't think so.. I think this type of thinking raises the alarms when people want to start burning books.

Can't deny the extremists voices are pretty loud these days.

I don't see where there's ever anything wrong with looking at history to try and answer questions about the present.

~Bang

[jpyaks3]

I am willing to bet that NONE of the stuff you mentioned played any significant role. Lone nuts who go on a rampage never, EVER do so because they read or heard some angry, hate-fueled rhetoric...no matter how much they read or heard.

We'd be naive to think that if only the bloggers around the interwebz were less divisive and more tolerant, maybe none of this would have happened.

He specifically quotes the people that SHF mentions in his manifesto and uses their reasoning. Hate speech does have effects, yes not everyone is going to go out and shoot up a place but it does have some very negative effects.

[twa]

If 9/11 was a attack against a Muslim country and the iman was criticizing the American influence there it might be closer jypak

Lay off the Freemasons Techboy, some of them are pretty cool

add

jypaks ..he cites many besides those writers....are all equally to blame ?....or just the ones convient to your beliefs?

add

SHF

http://killtheafterlife.blogspot.com/2005/09/strong-atheists-case-against-christian.html

http://www2.wsls.com/news/2008/jun/02/object_of_new_video_game_is_to_stop_the_spread_of_-ar-401417/

I'm scared...hold me

[SkinsHokieFan]

I am willing to bet that NONE of the stuff you mentioned played any significant role. Lone nuts who go on a rampage never, EVER do so because they read or heard some angry, hate-fueled rhetoric...no matter how much they read or heard.

We'd be naive to think that if only the bloggers around the interwebz were less divisive and more tolerant, maybe none of this would have happened.

This guy wasn't some nut. Reading through his manifesto, this guy is actually fairly brilliant. Misguided and evil, but brilliant and will be proven to be perfectly mentally capable.

The hate that spews from them proved to have a huge influence in the Park 51 debacle last summer.

His inspiration can be gleaned from the words of his manifesto, 2083: A European Declaration of Independence. In his own words he was inspired by Andrew Bostom, Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or, Pamela Geller, Geert Wilders, Ibn Warraq, Serge Trifkovic, the so-called “Vienna School” and a plethora of other Islamophobes and anti-Muslims.

About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer. Bat Ye’or’s books are groundbreaking and important, though admittedly not always easy to read. The Legacy of Jihad by Andrew Bostom should be considered required reading for all those interested in Islam. It is the best and most complete book available on the subject in English, and possibly in any language. Ibn Warraq’s books are excellent, starting with his Defending the West . Understanding Muhammad by the Iranian ex-Muslim Ali Sina is also worth reading, as is Defeating Jihad by Serge Trifkovic.

[techboy]

We know I am not blaming conservatives

That's only because your cognitive dissonance hasn't fully resolved itself.

Perhaps I should have used "right wing", though I would point out that there have been a few that have generalized a bit more than that.

While none may have ever directly called for violence, their extreme bigoted views, as mentioned in another article posted in this thread, provided that infrastructure for this terrible event to happen.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with that statement, as much as I find people like Pam Gellar distasteful. I think Destino has the right of it. Down that path lies blaming all environmentalists for ALF and all pro-lifers for abortion clinic bombers.

If they're not calling for violence, I don't think culpability can be assessed, though there's definitely a line near the militaristic language, and I don't know what side it's on.

In my view, there's really little to no culpability for Norway's right wing... reports are that this guy left the movement because they weren't embracing violence.

[Baculus]

I'm laughing at the idea that this guy's actions were the result of what he's read lol...

Our minds are not so fragile that our perspectives on the world can be distorted to a delusional and violent degree merely by reading the wrong publications.

Literature, especially religious texts, have a long tradition of changing lives. An obvious pop culture example if Cat Stevens, who read the Koran and converted to Islam. Many a lost soul have also read the Bible or Walt Whitman and found life changing faith as well.

Yes, reading the wrong publications, whether it's The Turner Diaries, which inspired Timothy McVeigh, or Catcher in the Rye, twisting the mind of Lennon killer Mark Chapman, can have fateful affects on a person. Many an Aryan has cited Mein Kampf as an inspiration, which, by the way, is banned in Germany. Why? Because they understand the power of words (though I may not necessarily agree with the banning, freedom of speech and all . . .).

Anders Behring Breivik himself, in his 1500 page manifesto, references may pieces of literature which influenced him. In fact, most of his ideas seemingly came from writings from various sources, which he evens says had a profound influence on his ideology.

Where do you think many ideas originate? Books.

Perhaps you need to read more, my friend!

[techboy]

This guy wasn't some nut. Reading through his manifesto, this guy is actually fairly brilliant. Misguided and evil, but brilliant and will be proven to be perfectly mentally capable.

It's possible to be brilliant and mentally ill at the same time. He's almost certainly legally culpable, but that's a far cry from saying he isn't insane.

---------- Post added July-25th-2011 at 10:55 PM ----------

Yes, reading the wrong publications, whether it's The Turner Diaries, which inspired Timothy McVeigh, or Catcher in the Rye, twisting the mind of Lennon killer Mark Chapman, can have fateful affects on a person.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think implicating The Catcher in the Rye in the murder of John Lennon is going to help your overall argument.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with that statement, as much as I find people like Pam Gellar distasteful. I think Destino has the right of it. Down that path lies blaming all environmentalists for ALF and all pro-lifers for abortion clinic bombers.

If they're not calling for violence, I don't think culpability can be assessed, though there's definitely a line near the militaristic language, and I don't know what side it's on.

In my view, there's really little to no culpability for Norway's right wing... reports are that this guy left the movement because they weren't embracing violence.

With the specific people I pointed out, I am not uncomfortable with that.

Blaming "right wing Christians" I certainly am very uncomfortable with it. The man was a nominal Christian at best and certainly doesn't cite actualy scripture for his actions.

However he did cite a certain clique of hate mongers who use Islam bashing to enrich themselves. And they clearly had a signifcant influence on him, and are starting to have their ideas seep into and perculate into conservative politics in America (again, see the Park 51 controversy, and statements from people like Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich)

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This guy wasn't some nut. Reading through his manifesto, this guy is actually fairly brilliant.

So was the Unibomber.

And who says nuts can't also be brilliant or intelligent? They're not mutually exclusive.

Misguided and evil, but brilliant and will be proven to be perfectly mentally capable.

None of that goes against what I wrote, though. And the "evil" in him was not placed there by extreme rhetoric. Nor was that rhetoric the defining element of his evilness.

The hate that spews from them proved to have a huge influence in the Park 51 debacle last summer.

His inspiration can be gleaned from the words of his manifesto, 2083: A European Declaration of Independence. In his own words he was inspired by Andrew Bostom, Robert Spencer, Bat Ye’or, Pamela Geller, Geert Wilders, Ibn Warraq, Serge Trifkovic, the so-called “Vienna School” and a plethora of other Islamophobes and anti-Muslims.

I don't think you quite get why people like him commit the acts of violence that they do. It's NEVER external. Ever.

The insanity/distorted views on the world are already there. The individual just looks for something, anything, to latch onto that they feel validates that view...even if it really doesn't. It's like those people who claim pornography lead someone to become a serial rapist and killer because when they arrested the kiiller he had a bunch of porn in his house.

[shk75]

I just read that police officers in Norway do not carry guns, that's crazy

[Baculus]

So we have Glenn Beck's wisdom on this event:

"As the thing started to unfold and there was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler Youth," he said. "Who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

No, Beck -- the only thing that's disturbing is you.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/07/25/2011-07-25_glenn_beck_compares_norway_shooting_victims_to_hitler_youth_on_radio_show.html#ixzz1TAyHzdAY

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/07/25/2011-07-25_glenn_beck_compares_norway_shooting_victims_to_hitler_youth_on_radio_show.html

[FanboyOf91]

I just read that police officers in Norway do not carry guns, that's crazy

Not with Norway's low crime levels. 27 murders in the whole country last year.

[techboy]

However he did cite a certain clique of hate mongers who use Islam bashing to enrich themselves. And they clearly had a signifcant influence on him, and are starting to have their ideas seep into and perculate into conservative politics in America (again, see the Park 51 controversy, and statements from people like Herman Cain and Newt Gingrich)

I understand where you're coming from, and it's worse because what they're saying is not true, but I still can't go with this.

If somebody bombed a coal power plant, and killed a bunch of oil workers, I wouldn't blame Al Gore and other environmentalists either, despite the fact that many of them use very strong language about dangers to the Earth and our future, even if the attacker quoted them extensively.

[shk75]

Not with Norway's low crime levels. 27 murders in the whole country last year.

Yeah but other nations that have pretty similar low crime stats still have their officers carry firearms, not saying its necessary just didn't know about it.

[techboy]

No, Beck -- the only thing that's disturbing is you.

Glenn Beck might be another example of the idea that intelligent doesn't preclude crazy. I guess it depends upon whether or not he actually believes what he's spewing or not. If not, he's not crazy, just coldly calculating.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Literature, especially religious texts, have a long tradition of changing lives. An obvious pop culture example if Cat Stevens, who read the Koran and converted to Islam. Many a lost soul have also read the Bible or Walt Whitman and found life changing faith as well.

We're not talking about "changing lives"...we're talking about having such a warped and distorted perception of the world that you feel extreme acts of violence are not only necessary, but excusable.

Yes, reading the wrong publications, whether it's The Turner Diaries, which inspired Timothy McVeigh, or Catcher in the Rye, twisting the mind of Lennon killer Mark Chapman, can have fateful affects on a person. Many an Aryan has cited Mein Kampf as an inspiration, which, by the way, is banned in Germany. Why? Because they understand the power of words (though I may not necessarily agree with the banning, freedom of speech and all . . .).

Again...some of you naively feel that what this individual read actually played a role in his actions.

Anders Behring Breivik himself, in his 1500 page manifesto, references may pieces of literature which influenced him. In fact, most of his ideas seemingly came from writings from various sources, which he evens says had a profound influence on his ideology.

Where do you think many ideas originate? Books.

Perhaps you need to read more, my friend!

You're going off in a bunch of different tangents lol...nobody, not even me, said that what you read can not influence you. I said that large acts of violence committed by LONE individuals are NEVER primarily--or even slightly--due to what they've read. No amount of porn will turn someone into a serial rapist and killer. No amount of heavy metal will make kids commit suicide. No amount of "angry" political rhetoric will make someone kill 100 innocent people. Human beings do not work that way. Those acts are rooted in something extraordinarily internal...

Watch...as more and more about this guy becomes known, we will find out that his mind showed hints of being broken way before any of the texts being blamed here were even written.

[Destino]

Just what constitutes inflammatory rhetoric?....wheres the line

That's easy TWA. The line is "if some takes you seriously and literally does your speech logically justify violence.". I understand that dramatic speech brings in the donor dollars, I've been the guy in charge is fundraising at nonprofits. I understand it more than most of you. But when you say "we are at war" and "they are a real threat to our civilization" te question is why aren't the people saying those things violent if they really believe it? After all if a group is at war with us and trying to destroy us that is a reason people have gone to war since the dawn of civilization.

How is that hard to understand? Screaming fire in a theater is irresponsible because you can cause a stampede. You can't do that and then point at a man that trampled another and say "the rules state you should have walked calmly out". If you're going to call people murderers or claim we are at war and someone takes action it's the same damn thing. Oppose rationally, that isn't asking a lot.