Should you be able to sell bone marrow?UPDATE, compensation approved by court!!

[twa]

Interesting court case to challenge for the right to sell/be compensated for bone marrow

RMcXvMxVFUA

He makes a good argument

[Springfield]

I'm not a doctor or anything but... why not?

[Hubbs]

It regrows, doesn't it? If so, how is it different than donating blood?

[twa]

Bit riskier and more painful,but rather common....there certainly seems a need.

we have some odd laws and ethics

http://www.marrow.org/DONOR/When_You_re_Asked_to_Donate_fo/Donation_FAQs/index.html#hurt

[Conn]

It regrows, doesn't it? If so, how is it different than donating blood?

Its not...but we haven't allowed people to sell their blood since the 70's.

[twa]

Its not...but we haven't allowed people to sell their blood since the 70's.

??

There are more than 500 for-profit plasma collection centers in the United States, one of the largest suppliers of Blood plasma products in the world. According to the plasma industry, there are between 1.5 million and 2 million paid donors, 70 percent of whom donate regularly. Because the human body replenishes plasma more quickly than whole blood, plasma donations can be made twice weekly or a maximum of 104 times/year. Normally, whole Blood can be donated once every two months.

http://www.nationalplasmacenters.com/

from what I recall we can sell blood,sperm and eggs

damn I forgot hair...and renting out your womb

http://www.thelivingweb.net/cash_eggs_sperm_plasma_hair.html

[ACW]

Hell yes! Hell, I think people should be able to sell organs. Hell, the doctors, nurses, etc make money. Why not the patients:

[Kosher Ham]

Yes. I feel like people should be able to have the right to do whatever they want to and with their own body without harm to others.

If I decided tommorow to sell my healthy heart to someone that needed it, I should be able to.

Other things come into play with my thoughts on this but it basically boils down to making your own PERSONAL choice regarding your body.

[Destino]

Marrow and things that regenerate I agree we should be allowed to sell. Organs and things that do not grow back I'd oppose completely. I will not support a move that makes the poor an organ farm for the rich and in this case I'm not talking "US class warfare". I'm talking about the third world and the industry that would spring up to provide residents of richer nations with functional health insurance models with the organs needed to meet their demands. Illegal to sell and illegal to buy.

[twa]

Marrow and things that regenerate I agree we should be allowed to sell. Organs and things that do not grow back I'd oppose completely. I will not support a move that makes the poor an organ farm for the rich and in this case I'm not talking "US class warfare". I'm talking about the third world and the industry that would spring up to provide residents of richer nations with functional health insurance models with the organs needed to meet their demands. Illegal to sell and illegal to buy.

In general I agree,but what about kidneys?.....ya really have a spare

Is that any worse than risking your life to earn money?

[Kosher Ham]

Des, You feel like we would grow crops basically ?

I don't believe that would happen in this age. But agree it is possible.

And twa, I couldn't give a kidney ater watching the Redskins all these years.

[Destino]

In general I agree,but what about kidneys?.....ya really have a spare

Is that any worse than risking your life to earn money?

We have one to spare in our world now. How many poor wouldn't when that second kidney became a high value product? It's just too creepy a road to go down to place a profit incentive on turning people into raw materials. We have two eyes too and blind people exist just fine without sight. Two lungs... I'm sure you could get by with one if you had too.

If we need more organs make the organ donor program an opt-out instead of an opt-in. People that care enough about it for whatever reason will opt-out and the rest will help others once they've finished their role in this life.

---------- Post added February-27th-2011 at 06:20 AM ----------

Des, You feel like we would grow crops basically ?

I don't believe that would happen in this age. But agree it is possible.

And twa, I couldn't give a kidney ater watching the Redskins all these years.

No I think people would descend on the worst areas of the third world and make offers families can't refuse. "Want your kid to eat tonight? I'm going to need that left eye" It would get worse from there... just look at how great people in the worst areas of the world already get treated. Crops get more care than they do.

[Kosher Ham]

Okay Des.

How do you feel about specific organ replication science ?

However your answer does lean to the powers growing crops.

IMO, Those people are considered crops also. Unfortunately.

[TradeTheBeal!]

I welcome our new health-provider overlords. I hope to have many children who can sell their marrow.

[Hubbs]

Des, I'm gonna ask you a really tough question here. It's tough enough that I'm asking it without knowing my own answer.

If you lived in the Third World and felt absolutely certain that you'd live on less than a dollar a day unless you could give up your kidney for $50,000 right now... would you?

It's morbid, of course. It's one of those choices that we don't want to be a choice at all, but, well, $50,000 isn't just $50,000 for a large portion of the world. $50,000 is the chance to never live in squalor again, the ability to know you'll be able to feed your kids every night, the solid roof over your head and the doctors lining up to meet with you. $50,000 is simply a number that we use to quantify all of that and more. So if we toss the number aside and instead think of the reward as what we'd be willing to give virtually anything for, well, I can think of at least a couple things I'd give virtually anything for. Definitely a couple things I'd gamble on a single kidney for. They're physically impossible, but if they were possible, and if you stood in my way "for my own good"... let's just say that I wouldn't mind risking any other part of my body in an effort to knock you out of my way.

On the other hand, your concerns are valid. I don't want to see a world full of poor people with surgical scars. But I feel like an absolutist opinion in one direction could be as harmful as an absolutist opinion in the other. Because, again, if you were standing in my way....

[twa]

I welcome our new health-provider overlords. I hope to have many children who can sell their marrow.

Unfortunately comrade it is now the property of the state which accepts it for free.

Des I think protections could be made realistically,but are those in 3rd world countries protected now?

It is the minority population here that suffers the most from the marrow shortages

[ACW]

Marrow and things that regenerate I agree we should be allowed to sell. Organs and things that do not grow back I'd oppose completely. I will not support a move that makes the poor an organ farm for the rich and in this case I'm not talking "US class warfare". I'm talking about the third world and the industry that would spring up to provide residents of richer nations with functional health insurance models with the organs needed to meet their demands. Illegal to sell and illegal to buy.

So you'd ban people from making their own decisions?

Not to mention, it would alleviate the organ shortage (supply and demand, Econ 101).

[The 12th Commandment]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1709006,00.html

Dodgy doctors exploit those same factors — illiteracy and poverty — to buy cheap organs on the black markets. There are millions of poor young men in India, desperate for a job and only too ready to travel to India's big cities at the promise of a quick buck. And even if they're not willing, they're still potential fodder. The Associated Press reported that while some donors sold their kidneys willingly, some were forcibly brought to clinics, held at gunpoint and then forced to undergo operations that they didn't want. "India is not such a literate population," says a spokeswoman from the National Human Rights Commission. "That's the main thing. There are a lot of people who are easy to take advantage of."

Shroff and his colleagues at MOHAN argue that if India can push its legal donation rates up "then we can take care of the shortage and stop these kind of horror stories." But encouraging families to donate the organs of their recently deceased after this week's terrible revelations is no easy task. "For the next month or two it's going to be extremely hard to get a family to donate because they think it's some big scam," says Shroff. "That's the wider damage this type of story does."

But marrow? I don't see it as all that different from plasma, though I don't know very much about it one way or the other. As painful as I expect it would be I don't think you'd have many second timers.

[ACW]

:secret: If something's illegal and done on the black market making it legal won't cause a black market (Prohibition).

[Special K]

So you'd ban people from making their own decisions?

Not to mention, it would alleviate the organ shortage (supply and demand, Econ 101).

Do you understand how people could be preyed upon and manipulated into selling their organs? This is something that would be extremely easy to do, particularly in developing nations. For example, when I was in the Philippines, I had more than one mother come up to me and practically beg me to take her home to the U.S. where she would be my maid and nanny and send her family the money. She was perfectly okay with not seeing her kids grow up, as long as she knew the money she sent them would give them a better life. Now, you don't think that same mindset would enable a person to give their organs for their family? Absolutely.

By legalizing an organ trade in the U.S., we would facilitate all sorts of horrifically unethical situations like this.

Now, if we want to open up strictly regulated bone marrow banks, I wouldn't be opposed to at least exploring that possibility. However, I would first like to know how long bone marrow is viable for. Secondly, I would like to know the cost to benefit ratio for this as bone marrow extraction is a much more complicated and risky process than simple blood and plasma donation.

[The 12th Commandment]

:secret: If something's illegal and done on the black market making it legal won't cause a black market (Prohibition).

If it were any sort of commodity that wasn't part of a human being, I'd agree with you. This is a different situation and, as keast said, it would lead to horrible abuses. I posted the Time article thinking, 'boy, it would be even worse if it were legal', because the article demonstrated how willing participants would be even if it was not in their own best interest.

Part of the commodity angle assumes willing buyer and willing seller able to sell, and more importantly able to refuse to sell. Here you have a whole market full of sellers that can't say no. That isn't a fair market.

Edit: Boy did I **** up that last sentence it's straight now.

And to save a post I'll answer ACW's below. The argument is it will be more frequent if it is legal. Of course it happens now but how do you see it not becoming more prevalent if it's legal?

[ACW]

Oh, I see how people could be preyed upon. Thing is, that stuff happens NOW, even WITH organ selling illegal.

[Bang]

I have no problem with stuff that regenerates.

Organs are a different matter, and I think the main reason I'd hesitate is because once I'm under for the purpose of selling a kidney, i'm entirely in the hands of the person paying my fee. If the doctor doesn't feel like paying his supplier, you just might not wake back up.

~Bang

[Hubbs]

Do you understand how people could be preyed upon and manipulated into selling their organs? This is something that would be extremely easy to do, particularly in developing nations. For example, when I was in the Philippines, I had more than one mother come up to me and practically beg me to take her home to the U.S. where she would be my maid and nanny and send her family the money. She was perfectly okay with not seeing her kids grow up, as long as she knew the money she sent them would give them a better life. Now, you don't think that same mindset would enable a person to give their organs for their family? Absolutely.

By legalizing an organ trade in the U.S., we would facilitate all sorts of horrifically unethical situations like this.

Hold on. Let's say she had a choice - either move into your house and not see her kids for years, or give up a kidney. Either one would provide her with the money she needed to provide for her family for years. The latter involves her actually being there. Who are you to tell her that it shouldn't be an option?

Part of the commodity angle assumes willing buyer and willing seller able to sell, and more importantly able to refuse to sell. Here you have a whole market full of sellers that can't say no. That isn't a fair market.

Really? They can't say no? What, is someone holding a gun to their heads? If being poor automatically equals "can't say no", then I suppose a poor person "can't say no" to a job flipping burgers. After all, it's dangling money in front of a poor person, right? Damn those fast food joints, offering jobs to people and whatnot. It's criminal.

---------- Post added February-27th-2011 at 05:21 PM ----------

I have no problem with stuff that regenerates.

Organs are a different matter, and I think the main reason I'd hesitate is because once I'm under for the purpose of selling a kidney, i'm entirely in the hands of the person paying my fee. If the doctor doesn't feel like paying his supplier, you just might not wake back up.

~Bang

I would assume that part of legalization would involve a system in which payment was given to a third party and either paid or denied based on the fulfillment of the contract.

[greenspandan]

I Desperately Need Bone Marrow

BY EDDIE HELPH

NOVEMBER 19, 1996

Won't you please help me?

I have a rare disease that doctors say is incurable. It's called Aphertoid Rhevatitis, and it attacks the bone marrow and hollows out my bones like a medfly devouring a cantaloupe. Aphertoid Rhevatitis makes me extremely lethargic, and sometimes I lie in my bed for weeks at a time, staring at the ceiling fan in my sparsely decorated hospice room, with roaches nipping at my bedsores.

It also causes my heart to arrest at inopportune moments, like when I'm trying to lift my infant son to give him a hug. My physician says I've only got about three months to live unless some brave soul offers to donate some of his or her precious bone marrow to me.

Won't you please give me your marrow?

Oh, who am I kidding? The jig is up. I don't have an infant son, and I'm not in a hospice. There's no such thing as Aphertoid Rhevatitis. I'm healthy as a bull ox. I just love bone marrow. Doesn't matter where it comes from—humans, monkeys, penguins, salamanders, turtle doves, or even the exotic giant panda. To me, bone marrow is Number One.

My love of bone marrow started when I worked as a lab technician in the leukemia ward at the local hospital. I was enjoying a lunch of clam chowder and crackers when I pulled a fresh sourdough baguette out of my satchel. I soon realized I hadn't brought any butter. Woe to the man who's forced to eat bread dry and plain! I searched frantically for some sort of spread—jelly, deviled ham, Nutella, anything! Crazed with hunger, I reached into the lab refrigeration storage unit and grabbed a random vial. In my state, I would've put just about anything on that bread—blood, semen, even earwax, but as luck would have it, the vial was full of bone marrow.

The marrow went on the bread smoothly, like chunky peanut butter. As a medical professional, I tend to frown on cannibalism, but when I bit into that marrow-coated bread, all bets were off. The taste was heavenly, like a subtle mixture of persimmons, guava and Alaskan king crab.

I was hooked, but how could I continue to enjoy this delicacy and keep my job? I decided to take only small amounts, a little at a time from each vial. I soon discovered that different marrow from different people provides different taste sensations. Bone marrow from children tends to have a fruitier, sweeter taste, while the marrow of the elderly is delightfully aged and musky. My fridge at home, now brimming with bone marrow samples, contained exotic flavors as vast as the sundae bar at Red Barn.

It wasn't long before the hospital administrators got wise to the dwindling bone-marrow supply. I had to lay low, so I killed a few neighborhood dogs to get my marrow fix. Their marrow was thinner and easier to spread than the human kind, but no less delicious.

Soon the police were knocking at my door, suspicious of the rotting dog carcasses piled by my dumpster. They searched my refrigerator and confiscated the precious ambrosia I had so diligently collected. Then they hauled me off to the pokey.

Now I'm locked in a cell with no access to marrow. I've tried chewing my arm off to get at my own marrow, but the guards here have strapped down my arms and capped my teeth with pencil erasers.

Won't you take pity on me? You probably have something in your life that you love. Maybe it's a nice new shirt, or a favorite game, or even a beloved grandparent. Wouldn't you feel sad if that thing were taken away from you forever? I may not be able to procure marrow in my own ways, but the law protects my right to ask you for the bone marrow I crave.

Have you thought about donating before, but been too busy? Do you know anyone who's depressed or suicidal who might be willing to give up their marrow after they've done themselves in? Or do you have any pets or relatives you don't love anymore? For God's sake, look into your hearts and bones and send me some goddamned marrow. Now!