LaxinFish29 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Based on what? One offseason where he took a shot? And then cut almost all of the crap players that he signed and elevated guys like Armstrong, Torain, Banks, Williams (Keiland), and Austin? Gave guys like Riley a shot?He didn't just dig in with his first moves; he adapted. I think that you're forgetting all of those things. Agree completely. Its nice to see a coach who knows when to cut his losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Is there a reason you're only adding one "key guy" per year? Is there some danger in adding, say, two key guys in 2 consecutive years? More of an average. If we add two this year, I'd like to see none next year - but this isn't hard and fast - if a unique opportunity arises (and at the end of the day, while I don't support it, I recognize the uniqueness of the Atogwe), we should explore it. But I look at how other teams have built and rebuilt with FAs, and that seems to be a good number. for not overextending the team, as well as balancing talent addition with young player development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 He took a lousy, aging team and traded a 2, 3 and 4 on horrific short-sighted moves. Those are the big things. He found a few young players with some potential? Great. He could have kept those draft picks and done more of it.Last offseason was short-sighted and idiotic. It certainly wasn't "building the right way". Is it how you start the offseason or how you end the regular one? Again, I think that you're forgetting the very key part of my post, which is pretty ironic given its content: He didn't just dig in with his first moves; he adapted. I think that you're forgetting all of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Based on what? One offseason where he took a shot? And then cut almost all of the crap players that he signed and elevated guys like Armstrong, Torain, Banks, Williams (Keiland), and Austin? Gave guys like Riley a shot?He didn't just dig in with his first moves; he adapted. I think that you're forgetting all of those things. Adapted? Is that what you call force feeding a 3-4 defense on a team that couldn't run it and creating a need where their was none? He made win now moves on offense while creating a total disaster on defense. If anything Shanahan season #1 set the Redskins BACK a year or two. It certainly didn't move us forward. If we are going to build "the right way" then this would be year one of that movement. Last season sure wasn't an example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolio47 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 My reaction: This was mine: 0MiVjitccnE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Adapted? Is that what you call force feeding a 3-4 defense on a team that couldn't run it and creating a need where their was none? He made win now moves on offense while creating a total disaster on defense. If anything Shanahan season #1 set the Redskins BACK a year or two. It certainly didn't move us forward. If we are going to build "the right way" then this would be year one of that movement. Last season sure wasn't an example of that. Agree for the most part that 2010 is a wasted year, except that I am glad we bit the bullet with the 3-4 and at least got started in that process so guys like Orakpo, Riley, Henson will be better prepared for it. Other then Trent and finding Banks/Armstrong, many of the moves simply didn't move the needle. Part of it of course was the crap FA class that was out there, the CBA restrictions and just cleaning up the old mess. He is going to have to go the Parcells in Dallas route, get worse in year 2 to get a little better in year 3 and have a bit of a breakthrough beyond that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jthor99 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wouldn't be shocked if Tyron Smith is the pick at 10. I was high on Nate Solder, but this dude Smith is shooting up draft boards, and he seems to fit the scheme and body style that Shanahan covets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins55 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 This is exactly what I wanted to hear. If Shanny can make good on his word, and we spend the next couple offseasons trying to gather young talent for the future, we'll finally get what we want IMO. Yea but thats not what he said.. He said nothing about drafting young players..He simply said " building a foundation"..... = Meaning who ever he feels will make a strong foundation (young or old, draft or FA he will get and it doesn't matter what u want!!" lol I m with you though, I really want us to build through the draft with youth at play making positions. ( NT, G, C, OT, MLB,WR, RB, OLB, FS,) But we have so many hles that its plausible to think that we will get some through free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 There sure seems to be more substantial worthwhile conversation lately, so far this offseason is doing better than years past. So many threads devolve into this draft vs FA acquisition debate, but the underlying element is still who is making the decisions. You cannot automatically equate the current regime with the Vincompetence that has run the show before. We will all learn a lot about this FO makeup soon, but until they actually get to go through it there is nothing to base speculation on. This isn't making mountains out of molehills, this is making mountains out of a rumor of some guy's mailman that thinks he might have seen a drawing that kinda looked like a molehill sometime ago. Writing off last season as a waste is pretty shortsighted, the process absolutely demanded that the team show what it had, not just in pads, not just in TC but through the course of the season, through the turmoil w/ players and after tough losses. As difficult at it was, a lot of the angst stems from unrealistic expectations and not because of massive blundering by the FO or coaches. You test a system to the breaking point to learn what can be repaired and what has to be replaced. It will take years whether you like it or not, it will take years to build up depth, to make the attitude change take root longterm, to establish the instinctive sense of what they guy next to you is going to do and to revamp the roster with players that fit a coherent plan. That doesn't mean losing seasons for the next five years but it does mean that the priority has to be something more than just W/L record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 From another thread: http://blog.redskins.com/2011/02/25/mike-shanahan-on-the-importance-of-draft-picks/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter "In order to win a Super Bowl, win a championship, you have to have depth on your football team," Shanahan says. "If you don't have depth, the chances of winning consistently are not very good. We can't give away our draft choices. We've gotta make sure in free agency we get the right quality guy -- not necessarily the best athlete, but when you take a good look at a guy like London Fletcher, Phillip Daniels ... hey, you go for character, you've got a chance for good things to happen. You can't make those mistakes and at the same time be a championship caliber football team." Put it to rest, people. We actually have someone who knows what he's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 From another thread:http://blog.redskins.com/2011/02/25/mike-shanahan-on-the-importance-of-draft-picks/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter Put it to rest, people. We actually have someone who knows what he's doing. Again when those words match up with actions they'll be credible. Saying "we can't give away draft choice" right before a draft where we are missing valuable draft choices for two players that clearly didn't live up to expectations doesn't pass the smell test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Again when those words match up with actions they'll be credible. Saying "we can't give away draft choice" right before a draft where we are missing valuable draft choices for two players that clearly didn't live up to expectations doesn't pass the smell test. :doh: I give up. We'll see what's what in two months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 So many threads devolve into this draft vs FA acquisition debate, but the underlying element is still who is making the decisions. I think most rational fans do believe that no matter what team building strategy is employed, it will be executed more professionally and at a higher level than not only Vinny's standards, but those of Gibbs' 2.0. I know I sure do. The concern is what strategy will be used, and how this effects not only the present, but the future. Writing off last season as a waste is pretty shortsighted, the process absolutely demanded that the team show what it had, not just in pads, not just in TC but through the course of the season, through the turmoil w/ players and after tough losses. As difficult at it was, a lot of the angst stems from unrealistic expectations and not because of massive blundering by the FO or coaches. You test a system to the breaking point to learn what can be repaired and what has to be replaced. I simply do not understand how a coaching staff with the eye for talent this one has could not recognize how broken down the current roster or "system" was. I understand the need for hands on testing, but most experienced coaches coming into a situation like 2009's 4-12 season would recognize that a full scale remold of the system was needed. I don't buy the thought that Shanahan could have blamed our ailments on Zorn's coaching, because for all intents and pursposes, the core of the team he inherited last season was the same core Joe Gibbs had during much of his run. Just watching from a fans perspective, it was easy to see the massive overhaul in talent and complete lack of depth - I can't imagine it looking any better from the coaches footage. A 2-time Super Bowl winner should have known better than to think adding a few veteran pieces and himself could propel this team to SB contenders - and make no mistake, Shanahan legitimately thought on day one of the 2010 season that we could make the playoffs and compete. Testing the system for deficiencies might have been in the back of his mind, but the primary goal was to win, and win now. I don't buy the revisionist history that this was all some sort of scheme to weed out the weak. That could have been done without trading for veterans. It was NOT a massive blunder, but instead a collossal miscalculation of the talent level on this team, and a failure on HIS part to set realistic expectations not just for the fanbase, but for the team itself. Signing a 34 year old QB is not a system-testing move, it is a win now move. It will take years whether you like it or not, it will take years to build up depth, to make the attitude change take root longterm, to establish the instinctive sense of what they guy next to you is going to do and to revamp the roster with players that fit a coherent plan. That doesn't mean losing seasons for the next five years but it does mean that the priority has to be something more than just W/L record. Exactly. But last year, there was considerable priority place on the W/L record. Yes, there were some significant moves made with the future in mind, but these were counter balanced by the many moves to make a playoff push in year one. I am not going to suggest that the trades for McNabb and Brown set this rebuild back for YEARS like some, but it certainly has made life more difficult, and elongated the process to a degree. He should have come in year one and said what is being said now - "build the right way", etc. The problem is, the two biggest roster revamps from last season do not seem to fit with the new coherent plan of building a solid foundation. They were brought in with a future is now mentality, and that is no longer the mentality. Do you disagree that there has been a shift in the organizational philosophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Again when those words match up with actions they'll be credible. Saying "we can't give away draft choice" right before a draft where we are missing valuable draft choices for two players that clearly didn't live up to expectations doesn't pass the smell test. I'd worry more if his draft history showed a Vinny like streak of trading picks, but its been in the opposite. Vinny was actually fleeched by Shanny himself for picks in the Portis and Duckett trades. Last 10 years in Denver he averaged 8.2 picks per draft, Shanny generally likes to horde them. I recall in a Kelly Johnson interview before training campaign, he said these type of trades are rare for him and don't expect more trading of picks in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstarr Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 He won more games then the year before, and this team played hard at the end of the year with nothing at stake. That is progress, you can argue the moves did not payoff for Mcnabb and maybe Brown (if the skins resign him then yes it was worth it imo). I say quit crying and let's be patiant and see what comes from his moves in total. Everyone hits, misses and builds in their own way. FA's and trades work for Chicago (see Pepper's and Cutler) Drafting and going young did not work for Denver (see the crap pile McDumbass left Denver) Drafing seems to be working for Detriot and St. Louis. Even NE picks up FA's and trades, See Crumpler, Moss, Rodney Harrison, wes welker, ect) so give it a total of 3 yrs and lets see if this team has made strides. As much as folks post and say this and that, bottem line is you do not understand or know 1/100th of what Shanny knows. That is realityso give the man time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Active use of FA is a short cut, whether that coincides with your understanding or not. If you use FA the right way, it's not a shortcut. You can fill holes you couldn't in the draft, smooth other rough edges, etc. I understand where you're coming from, Tris, having watched the same ineptitude in FA over the past ten years, but I'm not completely against it because Vinny left us with a bad taste in our mouths. If Shanahan finds the right players, it's not a "shortcut." A shortcut would be signing the big names just because they're there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Tell me how we are building the right way by going into the draft with only 2 picks in the first 4 rounds? They want to show me the right way, they trade #10 and #41 for 2 firsts, a second and a forth in 2012. That's the right way. That's what gives us a surplus of picks for years to come. We'd have 3 firsts, 2 seconds, 2 4ths and would be able to package those picks or trade them for 2013, then trade 2013 picks for more in 2014, trade that second rounder from 2012 draft that wants the big contract for first, etc... It's the only way to get back into the draft game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 That's the right way. No. That's YOUR idea of "the right way". Best not to hold him to that standard...because that's not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 No. That's YOUR idea of "the right way". Best not to hold him to that standard...because that's not happening. Not taking advantage of a screwed up year is a mistake. Going about this business as usual and not gearing up for the future. A mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstarr Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 You cannot blindly say trade back, the right deal/value has to be there. Not to mention if someone falls to 10 that you just love, draft him do not trade back. I am sure St. Louis and Detriot are real happy they did not trade back. 2 extra picks would not have been as valuable as SuH and Bradford. The Skins cannot fill all the voids with draft picks, FA's will have to be signed I just hope they are targeted fa's who do not break the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The concern is what strategy will be used, and how this effects not only the present, but the future. I agree, but I am willing to accept/admit that I have nothing to base an opinion on yet, there is no track record for this incarnation of the FO. I enjoy all the opinions here, it's the ones that act soooo sure that rankle. I simply do not understand how a coaching staff with the eye for talent this one has could not recognize how broken down the current roster or "system" was. I understand the need for hands on testing, but most experienced coaches coming into a situation like 2009's 4-12 season would recognize that a full scale remold of the system was needed. Ok, for the sake of conversation you're right, but did you honestly expect them to cut everyone and start from scratch? In a year with no FAs? Just my 2ยข, but I feel like they were trying to see what if anything was salvageable, and you just can't do that from TC alone. Just watching from a fans perspective, it was easy to see the massive overhaul in talent and complete lack of depth - I can't imagine it looking any better from the coaches footage. A 2-time Super Bowl winner should have known better than to think adding a few veteran pieces and himself could propel this team to SB contenders - and make no mistake, Shanahan legitimately thought on day one of the 2010 season that we could make the playoffs and compete. Testing the system for deficiencies might have been in the back of his mind, but the primary goal was to win, and win now. I don't buy the revisionist history that this was all some sort of scheme to weed out the weak. That could have been done without trading for veterans. Oy....... your "fan's perspective" is better or at least equivalent to the coaches assessment? Really? And you read Shanny's mind? This is what I mean, rank speculation based on.......... well, on other rank speculation. Not yanking your chain but c'mon, you state "facts" here that you simply cannot know, that none of us do. To me, changing to a 3-4 was a clear indication that we weren't making a win now at any cost run at anything. Short term gotta have playoffs would have meant we kept the D intact for it. I agree, there were moves made that sent me spinning over the edge of "WTF??!?", but I don't know what all happened or is still happening. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, and I just do not believe that anything has been proven yet. Yeah, I wonder about that whole "organizational philosophy" thing but again, without facts, without definite moves on the status of McNabb et al who knows? DMac could still start this season, could thrive this year, it is not out of the realm of possibility, the guy's a pro, a vet, a responsible man shown by his history w/ the media, somehow I don't see this all ending because someone got a hair up their ass. These conversations will get a lot more interesting soon because we'll all have more pertinent info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I agree, but I am willing to accept/admit that I have nothing to base an opinion on yet, there is no track record for this incarnation of the FO. I enjoy all the opinions here, it's the ones that act soooo sure that rankle. Well, there is last year... Ok, for the sake of conversation you're right, but did you honestly expect them to cut everyone and start from scratch? This is a common hyperbole that comes out in these discussions. Absolutely not, but to make the key piece of a rebuilding effort a 34 year old QB is unwise IMO. We couldn't have evaluated players with Grossman at the helm? Come on. Oy....... your "fan's perspective" is better or at least equivalent to the coaches assessment? Really? And you read Shanny's mind? This is what I mean, rank speculation based on.......... well, on other rank speculation. Not yanking your chain but c'mon, you state "facts" here that you simply cannot know, that none of us do. To me, changing to a 3-4 was a clear indication that we weren't making a win now at any cost run at anything. Short term gotta have playoffs would have meant we kept the D intact for it. My point was, Even the most unintelligent observer could see the massive holes and lack of depth. Shanahan's said these things, said we were going to compete for a Super Bowl. I don't expect him to say, eh, were just evaluating this season, but he could have set the tone better if testing the system was his goal as you claim. Either that wasn't his goal, or he did a horrible job of managing not just fans but his teams expectations. without facts, without definite moves on the status of McNabb et al who knows? DMac could still start this season, could thrive this year, it is not out of the realm of possibility, the guy's a pro, a vet, a responsible man shown by his history w/ the media, somehow I don't see this all ending because someone got a hair up their ass.These conversations will get a lot more interesting soon because we'll all have more pertinent info. I think he made it pretty obvious his intentions with McNabb in his pressed today. The good news is, he is saying the right things. Hopefully over the course of the offseason we do the right things to build a consistently good team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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